IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[WebSight]

If Libby and Abby were last heard from at 3:30 where were between 2:30 (when they supposedly encountered BG at 2:30) and 3:30 when they talked to Abby's mother?

When I read Kyja's original post last night, I was stunned. It really had my mind swirling and I went to bed thinking the ramifications for this time frame could be huge. It certainly makes it all the more mysterious. I am glad it has been brought forward.

First question: Has LE ever given an actual time as to when the girls were last heard from? I know the photo of Abby is the "last the time the girls were seen alive" but have they indicated a last call or text?

I had looked at Abby's mum's statement but assumed the 2:07 mark as the last time anybody "heard" from them. So, three hours from 2 p.m. and quick math, 5 p.m., near to the time they are reported missing. I never looked at the time the post went out from her mother. But it was 6:49, IIRC. At that time she states that she hasn't heard from them for over three hours. Let's assume that she is not concerned with down-to-the-minute preciseness at this point so that we are looking at between 3-4 p.m.

The question then becomes, was there a conversation regarding pick-up? "We're ready now, can you come get us?" or "We're at the bridge, we'll be at the entrance in about five minutes." or "Who's coming to get us and where are you going to be?"

One caveat would be that as the pick up time was to be between 3-3:30 p.m., the fact that they did not show at the expected time translates, in mum's mind, to she had not heard from them for over three hours, even though she may not have literally heard from them since before they were dropped off. I could see myself visualizing it this way in my head. I expected to hear from them at that time (3-3:30 p.m.) so when I didn't, I haven't "heard" from them since then.

It would be great if we could get this pinned down in some official way because I think it could really change the dynamic of the time frame of their deaths, and makes it even more complicated. jmo

 

[cluciano63]

Seems like an alibi would have to cover from 2pm Monday on until at least late Monday night, depending upon whether they believe the girls were killed on the 13th, which it seems they do (from bit from sealed autopsy.) RL may have initially lied about his adventure in Lafayette, which of course would put him under the microscope but I think his own violations, misdeeds and troubles are the only things he was trying to hide.

 

[Bemused]

To a certain extent I slightly disagree. I am talking about FINDING the perps, not convicting them. I am talking about a potential informant/witness second guessing themselves based solely upon images that are blurry at best. A path to denial if you may. Also in the Missy Bevers case which was also referenced here, I do believe they have tunnel vision. Jmo.

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This is not just a single or even two investigators. At one time the number I saw quoted was 30-40. Even if we assume that number has been reduced by half, what would LE's motivation be in having tunnel vision? If that were the case then I'd have to assume all of them were lemmings and willing to follow along. I do not believe that is the case, IMO. These are extremely smart, experienced and well-trained professionals who have access to the finest scientific testing in the world and the latest in technology and techniques.

I've seen someone imply LE is framing an innocent man more than once. I do not believe these ladies and gentleman tasked with bringing this murderer to justice do not want the correct guy and are willing to take a shortcut to say the murders are solved at the expense of letting the actual murderer skip off into the sunset. No, not in my world and not in my opinion.

 

[cloudajo]

When I read Kyja's original post last night, I was stunned. It really had my mind swirling and I went to bed thinking the ramifications for this time frame could be huge. It certainly makes it all the more mysterious. I am glad it has been brought forward.

First question: Has LE ever given an actual time as to when the girls were last heard from? I know the photo of Abby is the "last the time the girls were seen alive" but have they indicated a last call or text?

I had looked at Abby's mum's statement but assumed the 2:07 mark as the last time anybody "heard" from them. So, three hours from 2 p.m. and quick math, 5 p.m., near to the time they are reported missing. I never looked at the time the post went out from her mother. But it was 6:49, IIRC. At that time she states that she hasn't heard from them for over three hours. Let's assume that she is not concerned with down-to-the-minute preciseness at this point so that we are looking at between 3-4 p.m.

The question then becomes, was there a conversation regarding pick-up? "We're ready now, can you come get us?" or "We're at the bridge, we'll be at the entrance in about five minutes." or "who's coming to get us and where are you going to be?"

One caveat would be that as the pick up time was to be between 3-3:30 p.m., the fact that they did not show at the expected time translates, in mum's mind, to she had not heard from them for over three hours, even though she may not have literally heard from them since before they were dropped off. I could see myself visualizing it this way in my head. I expected to hear from them at that time (3-3:30) so when I didn't, I haven't heard from them since then.

It would be great if we could get this pinned down in some official way because I think it could really change the dynamic of the time frame of their deaths, and makes it even more complicated. jmo

Timelines can usually be a bit fluid unless we see specific time stamps, phone records, etc. (IMO). This is what I'm aware of from media/LE - said they were supposed to be picked up between 3-3:30.

3-3:30PM Williams and German were supposed to be picked up where they were dropped off a few hours later but never showed up. (Ref; Ref)

RILEY: ‘…and then they were supposed to be picked up by another relative at -- between 3:00 and 3:30.’ (Ref)

However, Bridge said that his granddaughter was conscientious and he didn't believe that she would have simply lost track of time. 'If Libby said she was going to be back at three-thirty, she would have done that,' he said. (Ref)

 

[cloudajo]

WebSight, can you please bring over the pics from your experiment of ~80 feet away with and without zoom? I can't find them and wanted to look again to get a feel for how much detail someone could actually see from that far away - also I guess it depends on the phone and zoom?

When you did your experiments with your daughters, did you by chance time how long it takes to walk ~80 feet? I thought another poster said it would take about 20 seconds give or take?

 

[Shiressleuth]

Seems like an alibi would have to cover from 2pm Monday on until at least late Monday night, depending upon whether they believe the girls were killed on the 13th, which it seems they do (from bit from sealed autopsy.) RL may have initially lied about his adventure in Lafayette, which of course would put him under the microscope but I think his own violations, misdeeds and troubles are the only things he was trying to hide.

Or till early a.m. on 14th if LE have evidence they were not killed at the location they were found. I.e. killed elsewhere then moved. JMO

 

[JLSChook]

The SW for RL's house could have been simply from a "tip" from someone that thought he was involved because the girls were found on his property, because he lied about his alibi, and because a handful of SM warriors have been out to get this guy from day 1.

Don't forget that they also searched the home on Bicycle Bridge road because of a "tip".

It's not as complicated as is being suggested to get a SW in a case like this. There have been dozens served in this case, so far.

 

[asyousay]

I don't see how the family heard from them after 14.30 as we know the video Libby took was just before criminal activity began so unless they was held hostage and made to call home ?

 

[otto]

Thanks. Just my opinion but I think he was gone / out of there by 3:30 or so.

Regarding this quote:

"I am copying this from Kyja's post on the previous thread, post #953 :
"According to this article which includes a picture of Abby's mum's fb post, the girls hadn't been heard from since a round 3:30pm. Anna's fb post was at 6:49pm and she stated the girls haven't been in contact for about 3 hours.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/eerie-photo-of-bridge-where-indiana-girls-were-murdered-posted-four-years-ago-by-tragic-mum/news-story/e9a91eebc06a5730b92026d6e26a6f75"

The stated timing is important. The girls were supposed to have someone be at the pickup point between 3-3:30 pm. They may not have been at the taped crime scene until 2:45-3:00pm, depending on what took place between the bridge and the cs. But if Abby's mother is right about the time, (and I do not doubt her on this - she would have known down to the last minute), then either someone called them at 3:30, causing a phone to ring, or someone showed up at the park at 3:30 and couldn't find the girls (and may have yelled their names or honked the car horn).
All of this leaves very little time for the perp to do whatever was done and then make a clean getaway. It bugs me that LE won't even release a timeline for these things. It sure would clarify a lot of things. However, IF they already know who the killer is, and are waiting for more evidence to arrest him, then I guess they don't feel the need to release anything at all.
MOO"

The comment about 3:30 is not in the linked article. The part in bold is added by the Websleuth member. What is in the article is:

"At 6.49pm on Monday, Anna Williams wrote a panicky post on Facebook for anyone who had seen the girls to “please contact myself or the sheriff’s department immediately! The girls haven’t been in contact for about three hours!!!!”."

What she is saying that she expected to hear from the girls three hours prior to the post, not that she last heard from the girls three hours earlier.

 

[Spiritecho]

Is there a link stating what time Libby started her video of BG? People are assuming 2:30ish?
We know the snap-chat pic was at 2:07. They did not make it to their designated pickup point by 3:30.
And Abby's mom saying at 6:49 pm, they hadn't been heard from in 3 hours. It is narrowed to 2:07 to 3:49 approx. When did Libby start taking her video?
And we don't know if there are other pictures or how long the video ran, do we?

 

[Shiressleuth]

I've seen someone imply LE is framing an innocent man more than once. I do not believe these ladies and gentleman tasked with bringing this murderer to justice do not want the correct guy and are willing to take a shortcut to say the murders are solved at the expense of letting the actual murderer skip off into the sunset. No, not in my world and not in my opinion.

RSBM
I've only seen genuinely expressed opinions on here and have seen noone saying they believe LE are framing anyone. I have seen many say innocent till proven guilty, which is a completely different thing. Do you have a link to those posts please, as I have missed them? TIA.

 

[otto]

When I read Kyja's original post last night, I was stunned. It really had my mind swirling and I went to bed thinking the ramifications for this time frame could be huge. It certainly makes it all the more mysterious. I am glad it has been brought forward.

First question: Has LE ever given an actual time as to when the girls were last heard from? I know the photo of Abby is the "last the time the girls were seen alive" but have they indicated a last call or text?

I had looked at Abby's mum's statement but assumed the 2:07 mark as the last time anybody "heard" from them. So, three hours from 2 p.m. and quick math, 5 p.m., near to the time they are reported missing. I never looked at the time the post went out from her mother. But it was 6:49, IIRC. At that time she states that she hasn't heard from them for over three hours. Let's assume that she is not concerned with down-to-the-minute preciseness at this point so that we are looking at between 3-4 p.m.

The question then becomes, was there a conversation regarding pick-up? "We're ready now, can you come get us?" or "We're at the bridge, we'll be at the entrance in about five minutes." or "Who's coming to get us and where are you going to be?"

One caveat would be that as the pick up time was to be between 3-3:30 p.m., the fact that they did not show at the expected time translates, in mum's mind, to she had not heard from them for over three hours, even though she may not have literally heard from them since before they were dropped off. I could see myself visualizing it this way in my head. I expected to hear from them at that time (3-3:30 p.m.) so when I didn't, I haven't "heard" from them since then.

It would be great if we could get this pinned down in some official way because I think it could really change the dynamic of the time frame of their deaths, and makes it even more complicated. jmo

When I read the article and interpret it, I can't assume that the girls were last "heard from" at 3:30. They missed an appointment at 3:30, and that is an entirely different scenario.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Is there a link stating what time Libby started her video of BG? People are assuming 2:30ish?
We know the snap-chat pic was at 2:07. They did not make it to their designated pickup point by 3:30.
And Abby's mom saying at 6:49 pm, they hadn't been heard from in 3 hours. It is narrowed to 2:07 to 3:49 approx. When did Libby start taking her video?
And we don't know if there are other pictures or how long the video ran, do we?

I believe it is on the LE billboards IIRC.

 

[Razz]

No.

A search warrant needs to have a purpose for the search. Maybe a search warrant for phone records to validate or invalidate his location at the time of the murders.

However, you're not going to get a judge to sign a warrant to search a house based on someone lying about their alibi.


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Is there a way to legally request the probable cause affidavits?
Again, someone got them in the Missy Bevers case. One had been sealed for 6 months and they got that one too after 6 months was up.

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[asyousay]

Is there a link stating what time Libby started her video of BG? People are assuming 2:30ish?
We know the snap-chat pic was at 2:07. They did not make it to their designated pickup point by 3:30.
And Abby's mom saying at 6:49 pm, they hadn't been heard from in 3 hours. It is narrowed to 2:07 to 3:49 approx. When did Libby start taking her video?
And we don't know if there are other pictures or how long the video ran, do we?

On the billboards the photo was taken at 14.30 hrs

 

[jillycat]

Thanks Elley Mae for restoring my faith in what I believe I saw in the very very beginning (before I was dreaming about this case lol). I saw the picture where branches were where the smudges were which had me believing the girls were hiding at end of bridge peeking and videoing. I may be crazy because there is no longer anything to support this but I can still visualize those branches lol!! So, thank you for keeping my belief alive lol!!

If this is the case, it goes a long way to explain where Abby was, why Libby was recording, and why they didn't run (the latter would have only exposed them sooner).

I've always wondered where Abby was during such an apparently rapidly escalating situation where the crime commenced shortly after the image was caught.

 

[Shiressleuth]

When I read the article and interpret it, I can't assume that the girls were last "heard from" at 3:30. They missed an appointment at 3:30, and that is an entirely different scenario.

I took it to mean they had text or messaged someone at 3.30 who had come forward perhaps a family member? LE will have the phone records so this should be known IMO.

 

[Yvettea]

after some consideration, I think Abby's mother's is communicating that she had no concern about their whereabouts until 3:30 when they missed their pick up. At 3:30 she becomes concerned but before that time she had assumed they were OK.

 

[margarita25]

50?!! Geez.. keeping the hope alive for Abby & Libbys sake an LE to find this SOB. They just have too. 🕯❤🕇
Margarita25 my friend in Kirklin, Indiana said LE remained only for 40 minutes at the home down from her but a few hours later while she went into town LE and State were heavily scattered in parking lots and streets. She has not heard anything as to what was going on. Easter Blessings to all. 🐰🐣❤🕇

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(Thanks Owl4 :websleuther: )

 

[JnRyan]

Thanks. Just my opinion but I think he was gone / out of there by 3:30 or so.

I believe that as well. And I keep thinking about LE's request early on about anyone who might have picked up a hitchhiker or saw someone hitchhiking that afternoon. I haven't seen that since.