IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[Shiressleuth]

1) Short time window to commit crime as you stated.
2) Three people being on the bridge right after the girls were there who say they saw and heard nothing.
3) The way sound travels in woods in wintertime with the crackling of dead, dry leaves (this leads me to a question about the stream... how loud is it? and it was said to be higher that week. Were there significant rains before then, and this is far fetched but could a boat (canoe) make it down to the area from the bridge that crosses the road upstream from there and then be drug out to the cemetary area to be picked up later)
5) The clean crime scene (again has then been reported or is it just rumor?.

RSBM

Some of the items I have no knowledge or comments to make but can address the following with my opinions:

1 This hasn't been firmly established. We do not know time of death or even whether they were kidnapped by vehicle from under the bridge immediately and brought back later.

2. These three witnesses should be looked at extremely closely as being the closest in time to the 02.07 and 0230 events AFAWK

3. I have already mentioned the possibility of a boat. But nobody has thought that an option. I don't know why. After all, they brought a dive boat ( don't think it was needed in the end) to the crime scene so the creek must be thought to be navigable.

5. Was the crime scene clean? Could this mean the girls were taken elsewhere, then returned ? Otherwise, I do not know why they weren't found sooner. Number 1 is also relevant here and LE will know the answer to this.

Your points are very well thought out. Sorry I have no valid input on the rest and I think you have the scanner response already.

AJMO

 

[Sir WiggleBottom III]

Two teen girls who captured their own murderer on video and that haunting photo of Abby. The down the hill audio knowing what Abby and Libby's fate would become. The desolate crime scene where they were left in the dark like a discarded pizza box while their families and LE searched, all while they were less than a mile away on that creek bank. Macho LEOs barely able to contain their emotions discussing it. A case still unsolved to the public and a killer not being held accountable is my guess.

Every time I think about his cruelly killing them and leaving them in the dark like a tossed hamburger wrapper I hear Nancy Grace screeching in my head: threw them away like a pair of shewwwws.

LE: I pray you're close.

I'm inclined to believe they are close or at least have a strong idea who committed this, I'm hopeful on an average tuesday morn in the very near future I'll awaken to my feed buzzing as to an arrest.

The other half of my mind is of the firm belief they have a ton of evidence but not the faintest notion who BG is.....i'm conflicted but hopeful

 

[richoldguyy]

RSBM


5. Was the crime scene clean? Could this mean the girls were taken elsewhere, then returned ? Otherwise, I do not know why they weren't found sooner. Number 1 is also relevant here and LE will know the answer to this.


AJMO

again, it's important to understand "pristine" it doesnt mean "clean" it means undisturbed, The same condition as it was at the time of the crime. No one had tracked through or disturbed the original crime scene.

 

[Sir WiggleBottom III]

RSBM

Some of the items I have no knowledge or comments to make but can address the following with my opinions:

1 This hasn't been firmly established. We do not know time of death or even whether they were kidnapped by vehicle from under the bridge immediately and brought back later.

2. These three witnesses should be looked at extremely closely as being the closest in time to the 02.07 and 0230 events AFAWK

3. I have already mentioned the possibility of a boat. But nobody has thought that an option. I don't know why. After all, they brought a dive boat ( don't think it was needed in the end) to the crime scene so the creek must be thought to be navigable.

5. Was the crime scene clean? Could this mean the girls were taken elsewhere, then returned ? Otherwise, I do not know why they weren't found sooner. Number 1 is also relevant here and LE will know the answer to this.

Your points are very well thought out. Sorry I have no valid input on the rest and I think you have the scanner response already.

AJMO

Do we know the area where they were found had been searched while they were missing?

 

[Shiressleuth]

In the Albuquerque case (abqjournal.com) the abductor jumped out of bushes with a gun to subdue the hikers.

I did read about this case after your post yesterday. Very violent offender now caught thankfully. Do you think there could be a connection?

 

[infarmgurl]

# 5--clean crime scene There is a possibility the girls were forced at gunpoint into the trunk of a car parked nearby. Man held in jail in Kansas or Mississippi (Kansas where he ended up after a cross country crime scene, or Mississippi where his killing/abducting spree began). Albuquerque Journal (abqjournal.com) March 1 and 2, 2017. Also reported by media in Mississippi and Kansas.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Do we know the area where they were found had been searched while they were missing?

It's never been confirmed one way or the other AFAIK.

 

[Burnt Toast]

On a similar note, I remember my relatives being disturbed when we found out that a member of our family, who we knew had a history of theft and robbery, had sat at a holiday dinner with us while he was wanted in connection with a murder.He had a history of brutal violence, theft, robbery, and escape, but somehow, there was a sense of surprise and disbelief that he had actually crossed the line to murder. And that he was able to be jovial, calm, well-dressed, and warm toward the family, knowing he had recently committed the crime and that LE was likely looking for him. To me, the person i just described is a career criminal. He has made the choice to do whatever it takes to compartmentalize his career. Someone like the Peyer guy, to my thinking, is a person with a predatory nature, who likely killed to keep his secrets hidden. Someone who kills out of rage due to a small confrontation which quickly escalates, although similar to what Peyer did, is still(IMO) different, in that it isn't usually done to cover up other activity. It tends to be quick, and all though an attempt to cover it up, or stage it as something else isn't uncommon, confessions in these cases are also fairly common. Again, I am still somewhat on the fence regarding RL. There are just certain aspects that raise flags for me that this doesn't seem like a heat of the moment crime. If we speculate that he marched them over to his property to scold or chastise, and that escalated into murder, it would seem that the marching them over there was already, by law, felonious abduction. And the voice on the recording saying "down the hill" seems calm, not enraged. BG also, to me anyway, looks like he's trying to look nonchalant...hands in pockets, head down, staying to the right. I would expect an angry, possibly intoxicated, property owner to walk right up the middle, hands out, possibly yelling or shaking his head. These are the things that have me leaning hard toward one side of this fence. I really hope we get some answers soon, and I appreciate your knowledge, experience, and assuredness. Wish I could be as sure about this situation.

i work with a small group...twelve people. One of my co- workers was arrested for murdering someone in the downtown area a few weeks ago. I would have never thought they were capable of such a horrific crime ( stabbing). it is being investigated as a hate crime.

 

[WebSight]

WebSight, can you please bring over the pics from your experiment of ~80 feet away with and without zoom? I can't find them and wanted to look again to get a feel for how much detail someone could actually see from that far away - also I guess it depends on the phone and zoom?

When you did your experiments with your daughters, did you by chance time how long it takes to walk ~80 feet? I thought another poster said it would take about 20 seconds give or take?

I ended up doing the experiment again the next day to get the sunlight on the left side as it was for BG. I also realised that I had not re-created the naked eye view on the first set of pictures I loaded. So, I am glad to have this correct view brought forward.

Below is 70 feet according to the eye of the camera without zoom. This does not represent the true distance at all.

Below is the distance according to the naked eye. This is the approximate distance BG was and how he would appear to Libby and Abby. The camera has been zoomed here to re-create what the real life distance looks like. Interestingly this is also full zoom on my Samsung Galaxy.

At this distance the person is totally recognizable, we are conversing in normal voices, body posture and language are easily seen.

Having done the experiment recording without zoom and then taking a still from that view and then zooming the still, it was a pixelated mess.

I am sure that Abby has taken the video at the real life zoom level (at the least). LE probably zoomed further for enhancement, I think.

 

[Bemused]

again, it's important to understand "pristine" it doesnt mean "clean" it means undisturbed, The same condition as it was at the time of the crime. No one had tracked through or disturbed the original crime scene.

We don't know what the crime scene looked like as the LEOs discovered it after the girls were found by the volunteer.

RL said in an on camera media interview that it was "pristine". I'll see if I can find that piece but it may take awhile.

ETA here is a transcript. Jean C first said pristine so RL may have just picked up on that.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1702/20/ptab.01.html

 

[Eileen730]

If this did go down very quickly then surely this is a professional and has done this kind of thing before ?

It all seems quite cold and calculated to me and doesn't scream first time offender who got lucky.

IMO

I don't think he's a professional.
He did what he felt he needed to do.
IMO the girls were a threat to him.

 

[Shiressleuth]

again, it's important to understand "pristine" it doesnt mean "clean" it means undisturbed, The same condition as it was at the time of the crime. No one had tracked through or disturbed the original crime scene.

Do you have a link where LE said the CS was pristine? That was the property owner describing his land IIRC wasn't it?

 

[Bemused]

Do we know the area where they were found had been searched while they were missing?

I believe the search started at the place the girls were last known to be. Remember they wouldn't let volunteers near the bridge or dropoff location while the dogs were brought in to pick up a scent? I expect they then moved in concentric circles outwardly from that point until the volunteer found them.

 

[asyousay]

I don't think he's a professional.
He did what he felt he needed to do.
IMO the girls were a threat to him.

I just don't see how they was a threat to him imo

They went for a walk along a trail and a bridge and it's so open who on earth would be stupid enough to something illicit out in the open ?


From the little we know neither girl was bolshie (s) or would get into trouble willingly. So I can't see them mouthing off to a stranger or anything as Abby was shy apparently.

 

[Eileen730]

I think his use of THe word pristine means if u looked at the land u would never know 2 ppl were murdered there.
It looks pristine untouched.

This is also why I think he walked them there and murdered them very quickly.
I think he used a knife.
Alljmo

 

[GangaMa]

I don't think anyone snapped.

And I don't think the heavy FBI resources and 6000 billboards represent evidence that points to an alcohol problem that soared into the double homicide realm of two girls who seem to have been killed in a manner that has visibly shaken LE and involves the BAU.

I agree that "snapped" is not an option. People often use that word to describe violent activity that they were not prepared for. Reading through G. De Becker's book "The Gift of Fear", we can surmise that there are always signals and clues that a person is going to be violent, but most people only see what they want to see. So "snapped" means "Oops, people weren't paying attention.". MOO.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Two teen girls who captured their own murderer on video and that haunting photo of Abby. The down the hill audio knowing what Abby and Libby's fate would become. The desolate crime scene where they were left in the dark like a discarded pizza box while their families and LE searched, all while they were less than a mile away on that creek bank. Macho LEOs barely able to contain their emotions discussing it. A case still unsolved to the public and a killer not being held accountable is my guess.

Every time I think about his cruelly killing them and leaving them in the dark like a tossed hamburger wrapper I hear Nancy Grace screeching in my head: threw them away like a pair of shewwwws.

LE: I pray you're close.

Why do you think it was dark when they were left on the creek bank? Do you not think they walked across the creek to the bank in daylight? Where do you think they were between 02.30 and darkness (around 6p.m.).

ETA. We should probably all try to think about this if we don't think they were murdered there soon after 2.30 p.m. The time of death must be crucial to the case IMO.

 

[LadyL]

[bbm] just putting this here for those who are sure to ask

https://www.google.ca/#q=+bolshy

I just don't see how they was a threat to him imo

They went for a walk along a trail and a bridge and it's so open who on earth would be stupid enough to something illicit out in the open ?


From the little we know neither girl was bolshy or would get into trouble willingly. So I can't see them mouthing off to a stranger or anything as Abby was shy apparently.

 

[Eileen730]

Any illegal activity did not happen on the bridge. Jmo
It would happen on the trails or under the bridge.
This place is not busy. Very desolate if u ask me.
Might be different in the summer but not that day in February.
Jmo

They had something on this guy

 

[NightOwl77]

good questions..

Re: #2...Is that for absolute CERTAIN these people were ON the bridge AFTER the crime? Did they take pictures that document the exact time, or did they guestimate by memory about what time they were there? And did they CROSS the bridge all the way, halfway, part way or what?

#Sound traveling.... would the water be loud enough to swallow up the sounds of screaming? IDK... also it would partly rely upon the exact atmospheric conditions at the time (including humidity levels/dew points, wind direction and speed all play factors in sound) plus the trees ,, despite still being bare, can act like sound barriers. But my guess is no one heard them due to a combination of at least some of those above mentioned factors and along with the possible (even likelihood ? that they were gagged/knocked unconscious or intimidated by fear/weapon/psychological warfare by the perp to remain silent) Now as for someone on the bridge not seeing them down the hill below... well im not surprised by that, I saw the many different videos and there are lots of blind spots especially by the creek bed area where steep drop offs of land are.
PS...I did also wonder about the *(unlikely?) possibility of a small canoe or raft even being used by the perp...IDK...I suppose its certainly a possibility..what does everyone else think about this as a possible mode of escaping the scene?

#4 we cant comment on the garments

#5..the "clean crime scene".... I saw the video taken from within the taped in area by the creek...which gave me the creeps really really bad.... but I do admit to me it looked fairly unremarkable to me..I was expecting to at least see large areas of leaf-free sections or something... I dont know what to make of that... unless nature had already began to do it's thing and the wind blew leaves and such back all over...

#12... I have not heard about a cave, would like to know also. What I do wonder about is the cemetery and it's role in all this. Id also like to know if it is one that has underground tunnels like some do.


and another Q i wanted to ask that is not on your list...is do you all agree it could be a conceal carry jacket he is wearing that member (Daeee?) brought up? That would be pretty significant to be able to confirm that and possibly trace if a thrift shop/army surplus/second hand shop/garage sale etc sold one that may remember BG if only vaguely ....

That is all I can really reply to for now..

For #2 this is the quote which apparently there was a Facebook post about, and I'm pretty sure I read in another article these folks were interviewed by LE. Actually if there was another guy she saw, that would bring the total to 4 people who were in the area that day right after the girls. I didn't post the FB link because I am not a fan of FB and closed my account quite some time ago...

"A woman who was at the bridge commented on a Facebook post by a family member of one of the girls, saying she had been at the bridge shortly after the girls posted the photo. She said she didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.
“I even walked all the way across the bridge and back. I only (saw) a guy when I first got there and another couple once I got on the bridge,” Cheyenne Mekisha Engles wrote. “I didn’t see the girls at all. I also didn’t take the trail that leads to the right. Only took the trail that lead to the bridge.”

This is from the Heavy article: http://heavy.com/news/2017/02/liberty-libby-german-abigail-abby-williams-delphi-indiana-girls-dead-missing-snapchat-facebook-photos-family-bridge/