IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #59

[margarita25]

Final thoughts for the evening: I think the key to this case could lie in linking him to a past case (I guess sans dna since no hit yet, however, if they run a cold case maybe...)-, and hopefully not a future one.

 

[kat913]

Anyone know what the rules are for getting DNA from a person? Does it vary from states? Does it have to be a violent or sexual felony? Or any type of felony? Anyone know how fingerprints work? Are they always taken even for misdemeanors? Does it vary from states? Did they always take fingerprints for misdemeanors going back to '90's.

Alot of questions, I know....I believe I am now BoggLed in Ohio!! Anyway any answers would be appreciated!!

Thanks

 

[gregjrichards]

Anyone know what the rules are for getting DNA from a person? Does it vary from states? Does it have to be a violent or sexual felony? Or any type of felony? Anyone know how fingerprints work? Are they always taken even for misdemeanors? Does it vary from states? Did they always take fingerprints for misdemeanors going back to '90's.

Alot of questions, I know....I believe I am now BoggLed in Ohio!! Anyway any answers would be appreciated!!

Thanks

It varies greatly between different states. This is the current situation in Indiana.

"INDIANAPOLIS — Indiana law enforcement is entering a brave new world where police can obtain and test any Hoosier's DNA profile against crime scene evidence, so long as a prosecutor can show the person probably committed a felony.

Republican Gov. Eric Holcomb on Friday signed into law Senate Enrolled Act 322 requiring police to take a cheek swab DNA sample from every person arrested for a felony, starting in 2018.

Currently, only individuals convicted of felonies have their DNA records permanently entered into a state police database."

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/...cle_c5bb69f0-6d66-5db9-bc2f-3db09d67fccd.html

 

[kat913]

If someone is detained in another state and Indiana wants DNA...can they make that state take it or do they need a court order from Indiana to have it released for their investigation?

What are Iowa's rules?

I am a very nosy girl...sorry!!

 

[margarita25]

If someone is detained in another state and Indiana wants DNA...can they make that state take it or do they need a court order from Indiana to have it released for their investigation?

What are Iowa's rules?

I am a very nosy girl...sorry!!

(Nosy? Here at WS? Unheard of!)

 

[Ember123]

Here's Liberty's IG account. You may want to look at the last picture. https://www.instagram.com/_liberrrrty_/

WHAT about that last pic???

 

[gregjrichards]

If someone is detained in another state and Indiana wants DNA...can they make that state take it or do they need a court order from Indiana to have it released for their investigation?

What are Iowa's rules?

I am a very nosy girl...sorry!!

From 2014 current law

SIOUX CITY, Iowa (AP) — As forensic investigation techniques get more advanced, police investigators are finding them ever more useful in solving crimes. A new law set to take effect in Iowa this year could help law enforcement officers even more.

Beginning July 1, offenders convicted of the most aggravated misdemeanors in Iowa's courts will be required to submit DNA samples. Current law requires felony convicts as well as sexually violent predators and sex offenders to submit DNA samples.

http://www.omaha.com/news/iowa-law-...cle_5f3397fc-426c-5cff-828c-436eb6514b31.html

I don't know enough about it to provide a better answer.

 

[kat913]

From 2014 current law

SIOUX CITY, Iowa (AP) — As forensic investigation techniques get more advanced, police investigators are finding them ever more useful in solving crimes. A new law set to take effect in Iowa this year could help law enforcement officers even more.

Beginning July 1, offenders convicted of the most aggravated misdemeanors in Iowa's courts will be required to submit DNA samples. Current law requires felony convicts as well as sexually violent predators and sex offenders to submit DNA samples.

http://www.omaha.com/news/iowa-law-...cle_5f3397fc-426c-5cff-828c-436eb6514b31.html

I don't know enough about it to provide a better answer.

Thank you so much for finding that for me...it definitely leaves a loophole in both states.

Thanks again....

 

[Ember123]

Good morning All ! Going to refresh my optimism and support our girls by getting a blue and purple tie dye Libby & Abby tee shirt! Saw them available online the other day and hoping they still are! May Today Be The Day. :heartbeat:

 

[Puggle]

Keep checking in....... so sad to see no progress on this case....,

 

[Ember123]

Yes! Found by entering what I was looking for then Images and found the link! Tree of life, white lettering, on turquoise and purple tiedye. Other options available same site. Feeling better I did something to help the cause today! :loveyou: Thanks, All, for being out there, still keeping the faith for our girls!

 

[kizzykat]

Since quite a few have speculated BG could've been pretending to be an authority figure I thought I'd share an alert circulating in news outlets and social media this morning. Police are cautioning about a man impersonating as a Conservation/LE officer. Location of this incident is about 80 miles due north of Delphi.
ETA: Article below doesn't specify the time this incident occurred but other reports say it was 11:30PM on May 19.

http://www.abc57.com/story/35501616/alleged-police-impersonator-at-kingsbury-fish-and-wildlife

Alleged police impersonator at Kingsbury Fish and Wildlife

Posted: May 23, 2017 7:58 PM CST Updated: May 23, 2017 8:33 PM CST By Ashley BeattyConnect








LA PORTE, Ind. - Police say to look out for a man impersonating officers at Kingsbury Fish and Wildlife.
Three teenagers were fishing by Kankakee River May 19[SUP]th[/SUP] when they were allegedly approached by an individual who claimed to be an officer.
The suspect drove a dark-colored Ford Crown Victoria with a bumper guard and spotlight. The suspect shined his spot light on the teens and exited his vehicle, according to the probable cause affidavit.
The suspect was described as a white male in his early 20s wearing dark colored cargo pants, carrying a holstered handgun and a knife.
According to police, the suspect approached the teens, told them he was responding on behalf of DNR regarding to a complaint of someone firing a high-powered rifle, and then asked to see their fishing licenses.
Neither Indiana Conservation Officers center dispatch nor La Porte Country Sheriff’s office received calls or complaints of anyone firing a rifle at anytime on Friday.
Indiana Conservative Officers that regularly patrol usually drive a fully marked SUV or pick-up truck and wear an entire uniform with shoulder pads and a badge.
Officers who are not in uniform will identify themselves by showing law enforcement credentials or a badge.
If anyone has any information regarding this incident, please call the Indiana Conservation Officers Central Dispatch at 812-837-9536.

 

[DeDee]

The second crime scene may be plausible, but it really doesn't make much sense. The most popular theory of 2nd location is the crime taking place in the Mears outbuilding. If that is true, then why move the bodies at all? It makes zero sense to move the bodies and endanger yourself being caught when the whole town is on high alert looking for them or suspicious activity. If it was just to be found, they would have inevitably been found in that small barn. What indication is there that this crime took time? It could have been over 10 minutes after the audio was recorded. Is there any evidence that disputes this?

I do not work from the popular theories nor do I join FB groups so I am unaware of popular theories except for the ones posted here. I have a few ideas on why their bodies were moved to RLs. I do not believe they were inside the Mears barn that is wide open in the front. Taking them to a separate location, for their purposes, does not have to make sense to us nor should it. Only the killer(s) knows why. LGs phone stopped pinging Delphi cellular towers around 5:30. It is quite possible that the phone recorded more than 10m of audio.

The official search was called off at midnight. That is all the Unsubs needed to know. The roads leading to High Bridge were not blocked until after the girls were located. That provides opportunity to take the girls away and return after midnight but before 7:30 on the 14th when the official searches began again. That is not a narrow window of time, imo.

Framing RL makes as much sense as any other explanation for them coming all the way back to dump the bodies, although still not worth the risk. It would be extremely brazen or plain stupid to move bodies less than a mile just to implicate an old man with no violent history. According to RLs wife, the police have time stamped video of RL in other places during the time that the crime occurred. I highly doubt she would defend him so robustly and publicly if this weren't the case. RL for me is 100% not involved in the criminal act, thought it may be possible that he knows something, but that's it. I would happily admit I was wrong if it meant LE had the evidence to charge him and ultimately solve this, I just don't see it.

I did not intend to indicate that RL was framed for the murders. It is only that by placing them on his property it made LE center their investigation on RLs property and not on BG. LE caught RL driving while on Probation. He immediately lost acreage that was attached to a reverse mortgage because his Probation was revoked. Who is taking care of his animals? Who benefits the most from his imprisonment? I do not know. I do not consider him to be involved in the crimes.

Occam's Razor for me. I strongly believe the sight of the crime happened very near to where they were found. I also believe it was a single person mostly acting on opportunity. I would be interested to know if anyone has any statistic on how often more than one person (versus one perpetrator) commit a murder on a minor. I would be surprised if a single perpetrator wasn't the overwhelming majority of cases. MO and not looking at facts, but you would need numerous very sick people.

Occam's Razor works for many crimes of passion. This one is complicated and complex. Statistically, it may be true that single perps are responsible for multiple murders, at any given time. If that is how LE is investigating, by working from statistics of a single perp, then it will go unsolved. LE knows BG participated. There are dark, frightening rabbit holes, if you know where to look, for evil minded individuals who gain strength in numbers. Loyalty is a sign of integrity, for some people, no matter what secrets they hold.

Many people are thinking of every motive under the sun that this could happen, but the fact of the matter is there aren't many things those girls could have done/seen/heard to warrant MURDERING them. For me, the motive is one psychopath/sociopath plus two beautiful and innocent girls and a small window of opportunity. No drugs or pregnancy or abuse and certainly no occult conspiracy. Again MOO, but I believe that the perpetrator was calm, calculating, and thorough, and may have done it before.

These two precious treasures, Abby and Libby, did not deserve death under any circumstances. None of the perps had to be involved in the occult unless you rule out enjoying death heavy metal music as being an occult experience. Have you read the lyrics to songs played by XFactor1? I agree that drugs were not involved in this tragedy.

Until the AR [autopsy report] is released, we may not know about a possible pregnancy. My theory is not based on that possibility. I was sitting on copious amounts of research until I learned one tiny detail that made everything fall into place for me. Some research proved to be unrelated but everything matters in this murder investigation so everything I could find needed attention until it could be discounted. Admittedly, I could be wrong about my theory and that is all this is, moho.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Yes! Found by entering what I was looking for then Images and found the link! Tree of life, white lettering, on turquoise and purple tiedye. Other options available same site. Feeling better I did something to help the cause today! :loveyou: Thanks, All, for being out there, still keeping the faith for our girls!

Ember or anyone...what does this mean? Did I miss something?

 

[Eileen730]

Ember or anyone...what does this mean? Did I miss something?

I think maybe she purchased a tree of life sign or poster

 

[Evania]

I think maybe she purchased a tree of life sign or poster

She bought an Abby and Libby t-shirt.


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[MistyWaters]

I do not work from the popular theories nor do I join FB groups so I am unaware of popular theories except for the ones posted here. I have a few ideas on why their bodies were moved to RLs. I do not believe they were inside the Mears barn that is wide open in the front. Taking them to a separate location, for their purposes, does not have to make sense to us nor should it. Only the killer(s) knows why. LGs phone stopped pinging Delphi cellular towers around 5:30. It is quite possible that the phone recorded more than 10m of audio.

The official search was called off at midnight. That is all the Unsubs needed to know. The roads leading to High Bridge were not blocked until after the girls were located. That provides opportunity to take the girls away and return after midnight but before 7:30 on the 14th when the official searches began again. That is not a narrow window of time, imo.



.

The main reason why I discount the "bodies moved" theory is in any murder investigation, locating the scene of death is CRITICALLY important in terms of incriminating crime scene evidence. Early investigation of the death scene is as significant as identifying the suspect/s. A secondary location where the bodies were recovered from proves dead bodies were moved, but is a much lesser crime than murder.

On Feb 14th or very shortly thereafter, investigators and medical examiners would've been able to determine how death occurred and if the bodies had been moved, body positioning (blood pooling/rigor mortis) and by considering ground disturbance, footprints, drag marks etc left in the damp ground. LE has never given even one indication that I've noticed to indicate the homicides occurred anywhere but the area of discovery. Other than asking for people to report vehicles at the Trail Head parking lot between 1 and 5pm on Feb 13th, nothing related to possible sightings in or around out buildings or other suspicious behaviour during late night hours in or around the immediate area. No other area away from the bridge and discovery site has been identified as the primary crime scene and if it had, what would be the reason to keep the location of the homicide a secret?

On the topic of out buildings, while the searches mid March gained media attention, there's an early YouTube video of an interview with LE where it's stated all the outbuildings were searched when the crime was discovered so it's not quite accurate that it took an entire month to have a look inside any of them.

To your theory, do you think LE still hasn't even yet determined the location of the actual murder scene and if so, what are the implications to the crime being solved?

Additionally your comment "The official search was called off at midnight." I wasn't aware of an "official" search on Feb 13th. Do you have a link that supports that to be factual? Thanks.






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[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

JMO...


Regarding whether or not the girls were taken away and brought back or if the entire act took place between the bridge and the CS:


I don't think they were taken and returned. I think the entire crime took place right there.


There has been speculation about how long the crime took and how many people could be directly involved. Yes, it was out in the open. Yes, it was the middle of the day.


We know LE was interested in interviewing everyone who was on the trails/bridge that day. We have unconfirmed sightings of "a couple" and "a man in black". LE has been tight lipped. The families have been tight lipped. The residents of Delphi have been tight lipped. While I hear (but have not read SM myself) that rumors are running rampant on SM, those are just *rumors*, until confirmed.


Total speculation here:
We don't know how many people were on the trails/bridge that day and spoke to LE. We don't know what information LE received from them, if any. We don't know (and this is just an example, NOT FACT) whether or not someone told LE "I saw X amount of people walking along the creek upstream from the bridge, but didn't think anything of it at the time." Since that area was used for recreational purposes (fishing, hiking, etc) it might not set off any alarms to see 3, 4, 5, or X amount of people walking along the creek. The person may have been far enough away that they couldn't give a description, but close enough to see the movement. And didn't even realize they were witnessing an abduction until after the girls were found. If the suspect(s) were controlling and/or threatening the girls with a weapon, someone viewing from a distance probably wouldn't think anything was amiss. Also, the suspect(s) may have been seen leaving the area, but again, nothing was thought of it at the time.
All speculation, not fact.


If there is more than one person involved, it would be crazy easy to do whatever was done to harm the girls in a relatively short amount of time, like half an hour or so, and exit RL's land via different routes so as not to attract attention moving in a group.


If there is only BG, he could still accomplish his evil deed and vacate the area, but the time frame would be tighter, he would have to act more quickly, and it could possibly give him more of a thrill, feeling like he's against a clock.


Yes, the police search was called off at midnight since foul play was not suspected at that time, but MSM reported family and friends kept searching through the night. We don't know where they were searching or if it would have prevented the suspect(s) from returning the girls to the area. RL was supposedly home that night, too, and his little dog likely would have barked, so it would have been riskier to approach the CS from that location. I feel there are too many variables: darkness (even in moonlight), terrain, possible searchers interrupting, awkwardness of transportation (even on a deer sled), neighbors being home, weather conditions (no precipitation forecast from what I recall, but wouldn't the grass and leaves have been wet and slippery from the melting snow making it difficult to maneuver to where the girls were found, and the area did not appear to be disturbed, so it probably didn't have damage from someone losing their balance or slipping or falling into branches.)


It just doesn't make sense to me to take the girls and then bring them back.


JMO.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

BBM--Not sure what you mean regarding "official" Misty, but here's one link

February 13, 5:30 p.m.: After family could not locate the girls they contacted the Carroll County Sheriff's Department.
The Carroll County Sheriff's Department, Delphi Police Department, and Delphi Fire Department were joined by the Department of Natural Resources to search for the two missing girls.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/timeline-13-year-old-girls-go-missing-bodies-found

The main reason why I discount the "bodies moved" theory is in any murder investigation, locating the scene of death is CRITICALLY important in terms of incriminating crime scene evidence. Early investigation of the death scene is as significant as identifying the suspect/s. A secondary location where the bodies were recovered from proves dead bodies were moved, but is a much lesser crime than murder.

On Feb 14th or very shortly thereafter, investigators and medical examiners would've been able to determine how death occurred and if the bodies had been moved, body positioning (blood pooling/rigor mortis) and by considering ground disturbance, footprints, drag marks etc left in the damp ground. LE has never given even one indication that I've noticed to indicate the homicides occurred anywhere but the area of discovery. Other than asking for people to report vehicles at the Trail Head parking lot between 1 and 5pm on Feb 13th, nothing related to possible sightings in or around out buildings or other suspicious behaviour during late night hours in or around the immediate area. No other area away from the bridge and discovery site has been identified as the primary crime scene and if it had, what would be the reason to keep the location of the homicide a secret?

On the topic of out buildings, while the searches mid March gained media attention, there's an early YouTube video of an interview with LE where it's stated all the outbuildings were searched when the crime was discovered so it's not quite accurate that it took an entire month to have a look inside any of them.

To your theory, do you think LE still hasn't even yet determined the location of the actual murder scene and if so, what are the implications to the crime being solved?

Additionally your comment "The official search was called off at midnight." I wasn't aware of an "official" search on Feb 13th. Do you have a link that supports that to be factual? Thanks.






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[Bird of Paradise]

Crews searched for the missing teens into the night, but because of the dark, the search was slowed around midnight. Crews will regroup and continue their search efforts first thing in the morning.

I believe that is a journalist description that I put it blue type.

I also agree with the theory the bodies were not moved. It has been stated though I have not seen a link supporting as fact that the family remained in the area.

Edit to add there is information pertaining to this topic on the scanner thread.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...-missing-after-being-dropped-off-to-go-hiking