IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #83

[ocgrad]

If the phone was in the creek as some of us suspect, perhaps the cold creek water with a brisk current was altering the GPS coordinates on the phone. LE/FBI is experienced enough to know how water submersion may affect GPS. They were searching the creek, side by side, right after the girls were found. They were convinced something of importance was in the water.

I'm not sure but I don't think the phone could continue to send a signal after it went in the creek. I believe it was stated that by 5:30 or so it was off and they couldn't ping the signal or get GPS location data after that. I can imagine that some killer could have thought pitching it in the creek was a good way to get rid of it.

 

[Hatfield]

Does anyone have info/stats on occurrence of copycat crimes? I'm about to dive into a Google rabbit hole to look into this, only because I'm interested in the mindset behind this. This also begs the question as to whether it's more risky to release COD and risk copycat crimes or more risky to have this guy still at large himself. I'm sure LE has weighed their options and are confident in their decision, but seriously, I just want to bang my head on my desk sometimes out of frustration.

I dont have any stats but if the COD was unusual I think the reason why LE would want to keep that under wraps is to have something that only the killer would know. That way when they finally get their man and if he ends up confessing then LE will be able to know they have the right guy.
Or even if he doesnt confess then during interview of him he may slip up and give away this important piece of information that only the killer would know and it is a way that LE can arrest the right person.

So I dont think its for concern of copycat crimes. That does happen in some cases but i doubt that is a concern here.

 

[Try2solve]

Here's the original press conference from 2/15/17 by Leazenby and Riley. I find it enlightening, especially because of what we now suspect. The reporters constantly ask if the community should be fearful and you would think a newspaper was stolen. One reporter incredulously asks if no one should be worried a killer is running around loose and Leazenby and Riley look at each other dumbfounded. Riley then states along the lines of all he can say is no one is in custody at this time. Another time Alexis brings up the Amber alert and Riley is pretty matter of fact that the alert wouldn't have done any good.
i think at this point they thought they knew who did it or knew it wasn't someone from Delphi. Any one else get strong impressions from this?
https://www.google.com/amp/fox59.co...case-of-missing-carroll-county-teenagers/amp/

 

[Shiressleuth]

Hypotheticallly what would happen if someone had been arrested and charged last year on a sexual offence, under the old law where DNA can only be taken on conviction and it hasn't gone to trial yet? LE would not have that persons DNA yet right? So this could be the issue. Perhaps they are waiting the results of that case for the DNA and the alibi hasn't given the person up as BG yet. There must be a lot of such cases in the system I.e. they are not yet RSO's.
:cow:

 

[Shiressleuth]

Does anyone know the statistics on false confessions? Is it really that big of a problem that they must keep all the details secret? Surely they could just keep one or two specifics back, that only the killer would know. How does this compare with other WS cases? Is this amount of holding back by LE normal? Are they expecting future murders with similar traits perhaps, rather than there being previous murders?

 

[kc1023]

Here's the original press conference from 2/15/17 by Leazenby and Riley. I find it enlightening, especially because of what we now suspect. The reporters constantly ask if the community should be fearful and you would think a newspaper was stolen. One reporter incredulously asks if no one should be worried a killer is running around loose and Leazenby and Riley look at each other dumbfounded. Riley then states along the lines of all he can say is no one is in custody at this time. Another time Alexis brings up the Amber alert and Riley is pretty matter of fact that the alert wouldn't have done any good.
i think at this point they thought they knew who did it or knew it wasn't someone from Delphi. Any one else get strong impressions from this?
https://www.google.com/amp/fox59.co...case-of-missing-carroll-county-teenagers/amp/

Well, yeah, early on it seemed like they had an idea of what had happened and whodunnit from that one quote in Feb 2017 saying IMO that people could pretty much figure it out:

"Chief Steve Mullins: "I think people in the community are smart enough to draw their own conclusions about what they should feel and shouldn't feel. Our people are very smart. We have a very good community and they are very strong. And they are able to draw their own conclusions about this whole situation very successfully.”

https://www.theindychannel.com/long...he-murders-of-liberty-german-abigail-williams

And I think the Amber Alert thing is probably because it literally wouldn't have made a difference due to time of death and I don't think it met the criteria of knowing a vehicle to report etc. anyway.

All MOO

 

[Shiressleuth]

I'm not sure but I don't think the phone could continue to send a signal after it went in the creek. I believe it was stated that by 5:30 or so it was off and they couldn't ping the signal or get GPS location data after that. I can imagine that some killer could have thought pitching it in the creek was a good way to get rid of it.

There are several tests people have done on the internet showing that an iphone can continue to generate pings underwater for a time. I googled it when the question came up before.

 

[mtnlites]

As much as my curiosity would like to know more about BG and what happened out there, I'm not sure if anything they know could help identify him any more than what they've already shared. It would be nice to watch him walk in order to see what his gait is like and any peculiar things that stand out in his movements, to know how they were killed in order to know if they had suffered much or if there were similar unsolved murders around, to find out if they had gone through the creek or somehow gone over it, and many other things. The problem is that the anyone who would recognize him by his gait, mannerisms, word choice (if more audio were released), etc., most likely already recognizes him from the stills and audio that have been released. It's very possible that nobody recognizes him from the sketch because they're never like photographs, and I think that the more realistic they are, the less people are able to see someone with similar features but a slightly different look.

At this point, I'm not really sure what I'm doing here. I'm 99.99% sure that I've never met BG (even though he looks and sounds very familiar), LE has most likely figured out pretty much what happened and when, and I'm not sure that I can add anything other than more speculation about things that are unlikely to have anything to do with solving the case. Still, here I am anyway.

I feel the same way. There's nothing that I can do to help solve THIS case. The only thing I can do, at this point, is speculate. I hang around because I'm afraid that if we all move on, it will quietly fade into the background like so many others.

 

[mtnlites]

I am not a big believer in profiles. They seem to be educated guesses, often resemble most other profiles of criminals and only end up seeming important, Imo, after the fact...not to actually catch a suspect. Jmo

That's been my experience/assessment as well. If real life was like a CRIMINAL MINDS episode then within 48 hours of the girls' deaths we would've had a detailed profile pinning down his exact occupation and criminal history and the profilers themselves, not local LE, would've been the arresting officers. (The same way that those CSI people not only investigate the crime scene but also track down the killers on that *other* show.) :thinking: I find that the profiles, in "real life" are often general criminal composites and not as helpful in solving the case as they are in exploring WHY a perp acted in a certain way after the arrest and conviction have been made.

 

[Ember123]

I think a profile would help - Especially to those that may or may not know BG. It would help clarify their thoughts.
As for phone pings. I am at a loss at how the comment could have been made so quickly by a family member.
As for time of death, I think it could be helpful.
As for the cause of death, I believe LE is doing the right thing and keeping it close to their chest.

I think LE could do more with Profile and or suspected escape route or method. I don't think the sketch was helpful and I would like to know if they ran the voice through Voice Analytics pinpointing the accent (Of Course they would have done)

I think LE enforcement know exactly who did this and cant prove it because of an alibi which refuses to break or report.

It is the Alibi that needs to look at their conscience and live with it day in day out.

May today be the day.the alibi chooses to do the right thing.

KR
Reacher

But how could alibi alone keep LE from arresting? (IF they know who BG is ... how could someone else's word alone prevent LE from arresting?)

 

[the_watcher]

But how could alibi alone keep LE from arresting? (IF they know who BG is ... how could someone else's word alone prevent LE from arresting?)

You need evidence to arrest. You need a warrant to obtain evidence.. I sincerely hope no judge would grant such, based on LE feelings.

 

[kidetect22]

But how could alibi alone keep LE from arresting? (IF they know who BG is ... how could someone else's word alone prevent LE from arresting?)

I think they have a very good person in mind who they believe is the suspect! Not saying obviously they know for a fact, but they are quite certain! IMO. They need this persons dna to seal the deal. No one has to give it voluntarily- if there is no other evidence putting this man on the bridge and putting him at the crime scene besides DNA, then they need his DNA! That is all!

 

[Deleted member 189081]

But how could alibi alone keep LE from arresting? (IF they know who BG is ... how could someone else's word alone prevent LE from arresting?)

Because the rest of the evidence may be circumstantial IDK Just thinking out loud. Or have reason to be where it was found. I am no expert and just looking at things from a different perspective.

KR
Reacher

 

[kidetect22]

Your not alone Reacher... this is how I’ve felt for a long time. Basically BG almost pulled off the perfect murder. Hopefully it doesn’t end up that way.

 

[Hatfield]

Does anyone know the statistics on false confessions? Is it really that big of a problem that they must keep all the details secret? Surely they could just keep one or two specifics back, that only the killer would know. How does this compare with other WS cases? Is this amount of holding back by LE normal? Are they expecting future murders with similar traits perhaps, rather than there being previous murders?

These are all good questions and I share in frustration why LE never seems to release enough information to the public to where we could help LE.

We had a previous poster who is now deceased named Foxfire who was an amazing skilled researcher on many murders and one of his beliefs which I totally agreed with is that LE is stuck with old outdated strategies and they are not utilizing the public as much as they can.

With the days of the internet LE needs to catch up with the times and begin using this tremendous resource of engaging the public more and giving us more information so that we can begin to really help them.

If done properly then I firmly believe that LE could release more information to let us help them and still not jeopardize the investigation.

It can be done carefully and properly. Too many times they just give the old outdated standard line of "not releasing more information so as to protect the investigation". Its always a balancing act however it can be done properly and allow the public more information so that we can really help them.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Does anyone know the statistics on false confessions? Is it really that big of a problem that they must keep all the details secret? Surely they could just keep one or two specifics back, that only the killer would know. How does this compare with other WS cases? Is this amount of holding back by LE normal? Are they expecting future murders with similar traits perhaps, rather than there being previous murders?

I found some links a while back but many of the figures used dated back to before LE did electronic surveillance of interrogations. It seems like many of those false confessions were helped along/encouraged by LE's tactics.

http://www.falseconfessions.org/fact-a-figures
https://www.innocenceproject.org/causes/false-confessions-admissions/
https://www.innocenceproject.org/false-confessions-recording-interrogations/

 

[Hatfield]

You need evidence to arrest. You need a warrant to obtain evidence.. I sincerely hope no judge would grant such, based on LE feelings.

JMO
LE could easily get DNA from any person they choose without a warrant by tailing the person and waiting till he leaves DNA in a public place. It has been done before and it does take some work but it can be done. I dont have a link handy but saw a show where they were able to get one guy's DNA by watching him go into a fast food place and when he left the table they snagged the soda cup that he left on the table and got DNA from the straw he was drinking through.

 

[mtnlites]

But how could alibi alone keep LE from arresting? (IF they know who BG is ... how could someone else's word alone prevent LE from arresting?)

It would depend on what time of alibi it was and what kind of evidence they have. Completely made up scenario: Deceased Person A has touch DNA from Person B (say, their cousin, who they see often) on them; Person B was videotaped inside a store at Person A's assumed time of death. Person B has an alibi, despite the fact that their DNA is on Person A. The video footage is a pretty strong alibi, especially since the DNA was touch and Person A and person B have a relationship that could have accounted for the DNA being there in the first place.

ETA: I went back and re-read your post and noted that you said "their word alone". That kind of nullifies my example, since I used video footage. There are still variables, though. The alibi would have to be more than their word alone, and it would depend on who was providing the alibi. If we're talking a somewhat neutral third party, like a boss or co-worker or a store owner, then their word would carry slightly more weight than a spouse. It's kind of a gray area. As others have said, though, they'd still find a way to get that POI's DNA somehow.

 

[ocgrad]

Something I’ve always wondered about regarding “pings”, is where they got that info so fast? Doesn’t it usually take time for phone companies to relinquish that info? I guess with the FBI involved so fast anything is possible but didn’t they mention the pinging phone very early on?


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I think there are a couple of possibilities to this. I read that IN requires a warrant to access cell phone location however since the phone was in BP's name she likely just had to sign a form. Quick. Then I believe the same way 911 is able to show location they use the same method just by knowing the phone number. Another possibility is an app that many parents use today that shows the location of the phone (and their kid) any time they wish to check.
Someone many threads back noted the number of cell towers and it was said that pinging different towers doesn't necessarily mean the phone was moving but it does mean the phone is active as each time you access a service, receive or send a call or a text, upload a photo, even use your flashlight the phone connects to a tower and depending on tower traffic at that moment it could connect to a different tower each time. We know her phone was receiving calls and texts, so they could tell each time the tower it used but that didn't start until after they reported them missing at 5:30. I think the phone went off during the night, MP said in an interview early on the 14th (or very late on the 13th) it last pinged 5 to 6 hrs earlier and it wasn't known if it was turned off or went dead. I would like to know what time that WLFI interview was. I also remember that the phone went off soon after their missing persons was announced on the radio and TV.
That process of triangulating location based on the phone connecting or pinging towers is called CSLI, cell site location information and it's not too accurate. However smartphones with GPS are very accurate and rely on several things including low level satellites to get a location that it very accurate. The app parents use to locate their kids shows them whose house they are at. I guess they were not using GPS tracking or they would have known the last location if the phone and it seems they would have found their bodies sooner. Even CSLI pings would have given them an idea of the last location of the phone. They were able to see her phone had received text messages that went unopened so they were using technology.
It has me thinking about whether the last location of the phone was not where their bodies were found. Or maybe they didn't have accurate location information but they knew generally and that is why the next morning they only focused their search to the East of the bridge.
When a phone pings off a tower they can read the speed of the signal from the tower back to the phone and know the distance from the tower then if they have more than one tower they triangulate that to determine not just distance but which way. If the phone remained in the same place the whole time while pinging off different towers I feel they should have been able to zero in pretty early on a firm location. But if the phone was moving it wouldn't have given them much to go on without GPS tracking. Perhaps that is another reason they stopped the search.

 

[curiousgene]

Here's the original press conference from 2/15/17 by Leazenby and Riley. I find it enlightening, especially because of what we now suspect. The reporters constantly ask if the community should be fearful and you would think a newspaper was stolen. One reporter incredulously asks if no one should be worried a killer is running around loose and Leazenby and Riley look at each other dumbfounded. Riley then states along the lines of all he can say is no one is in custody at this time. Another time Alexis brings up the Amber alert and Riley is pretty matter of fact that the alert wouldn't have done any good.
i think at this point they thought they knew who did it or knew it wasn't someone from Delphi. Any one else get strong impressions from this?
https://www.google.com/amp/fox59.co...case-of-missing-carroll-county-teenagers/amp/

Sgt. Kim Riley said parents should keep a close eye on their children. "I think people need to be cautious and careful," Riley said. "Parents should make sure they know where their children are and what their children are doing, and if nothing else, know what's going on in their lives. That's the most important thing I can say at this point in time." This particular statement makes me think LE initially felt this case involved a catfish situation.