In Case You Missed It. . .2012 is a Great Year for the Truth in the JBR case

[BBB167893]

same ol'

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html

In Kolar’s book, he says he reviewed transcripts of police intervews with at least five physicians and forensic pathologists from around the country who were shown photographs of injuries taken from JonBenet’s autopsy report. Their conclusion, writes Kolar, was that JonBenet had been “subjected to sexual intrusion” some time before her death, and that “digital penetration was consistent with this type of injury.”


Ramsey family lawyer Lin Wood says “the Ramseys had no knowledge of any such abuse. John and Patsy Ramsey thought that this was another example of the Boulder Police Department’s prejudice in trying to make accusations against the family.”(p3)

With all due respect, Tadpole, and I have a lot of it for you, there's a larger context at work in this article. James Kolar, as has been said before, was a clear case of DFS--Donald Foster Syndrome. That is to say, that he was hired by the DA's office, and once he reached a conclusion that went against the IDI bent of the DA's office, he was useless to them. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who was equally amused and appalled at the notion of Mary Lacy accusing someone ELSE of being unprofessional and having funny ideas about evidence. You have to admit, that's pretty rich.

It's all part of the larger PATTERN that I have been describing for a long time now: a pattern of arrogance and disrespect on the part of an anti-police DA's office towards skilled investigators with solid records. I have to say, Lacy's dismissing Kolar, a pretty damn good cop from what I know of him, gave me a strong feeling of deja vu from when she had it out with Tom Haney. In both cases, you had a DA who had never TAKEN a murder case to trial (and as such, would have very little idea of how to view evidence properly) dismissing the conclusions of a veteran investigator who had more experience in his pinky toe than she had in her whole *advertiser censored**in' body.

But what struck me the most was that Jim Kolar, a man who studied the case file, is one of US. Like many of us, he was upset at how Lacy bungled things so badly and decided to set the record straight. He's practically me!

 

[BBB167893]

The red fibers could easily be on "four specific areas directly connected to the crime" by secondary transfer. JB could have had fibers on her from innocent contact with PR while PR was wearing the sweater/jacket. Four specific areas just means 4 areas that have been named, or, IOWs, 4 areas. Not hard for 2ndary transfer to happen in 4 areas, if the fibers went from JB to the object/areas. Seriously, the red fiber evidence is inconclusive. Could be primary or secondary transfer.

I've been over that argument before, Chrishope, and there's a few things wrong with it. For one, I'm not aware of any red fibers on JB's hair, clothes or body. Combine that with Patsy's ridiculous "whole body on her body" story, and it's not a leap of logic to conclude that the fibers got on those items because they came into contact with Patsy's clothing.

The black fibers, apparently, did transfer, they were found in the crotch area, inside the panties. A little harder to see that as secondary transfer.

Agreed.

I'm not sure what Maikai is talking about here.

I'll resist the urge to quote Willie Nelson.

 

[Chrishope]

I've been over that argument before, Chrishope, and there's a few things wrong with it. For one, I'm not aware of any red fibers on JB's hair, clothes or body. Combine that with Patsy's ridiculous "whole body on her body" story, and it's not a leap of logic to conclude that the fibers got on those items because they came into contact with Patsy's clothing.



Agreed.



I'll resist the urge to quote Willie Nelson.

When you say you aren't aware of fibers on JB's hair clothes or body does that mean the evidence team looked for fibers in those areas and didn't find them, or does it mean you don't know? I would find it surprising if there weren't a few fibers on JB.

It's not a leap of logic at all to conclude that the fibers are there from primary contact with PR's clothing. I'm not denying the possibility of primary transfer. It's also not a leap of logic to conclude that the fibers could have been transferred secondarily. So my opinion is that the fiber evidence is inconclusive.

For reasons that I've just discovered in my reading tonight, it appears that the black shirt fibers of JR's are inconclusive too. More on that when I finish my theory of the case for the member's theory thread.

 

[Whaleshark]

He's practically me!

...is he now?

Hmm. Interesting concept.

 

[BBB167893]

When you say you aren't aware of fibers on JB's hair clothes or body does that mean the evidence team looked for fibers in those areas and didn't find them, or does it mean you don't know? I would find it surprising if there weren't a few fibers on JB.

Far as I know, they looked and didn't find them. So, the first one.

It's not a leap of logic at all to conclude that the fibers are there from primary contact with PR's clothing. I'm not denying the possibility of primary transfer. It's also not a leap of logic to conclude that the fibers could have been transferred secondarily. So my opinion is that the fiber evidence is inconclusive.

By itself, maybe. But, as with so many things in this case, it's the larger context that makes it.

For reasons that I've just discovered in my reading tonight, it appears that the black shirt fibers of JR's are inconclusive too. More on that when I finish my theory of the case for the member's theory thread.

Okay.

 

[OpenMind4U]

...is he now?

Hmm. Interesting concept.

Bourne Identity...........:woohoo:

 

[Chrishope]

Actually, when you look at the evidence lists, BOTH red and black fibers from Patsy's fleece sweater/jacket were found, not just the red. There is some confusion about Patsy's clothing that night. She wore a solid RED sweater UNDER the red/black fleece sweater jacket. It was the fleece acrylic fibers from the sweater jacket that were found.

The dark fibers found in the panty crotch were wool from JR's shirt. The red and black fibers in the garrote, paint tote and cord were acrylic, from Patsy's red/black acrylic sweater jacket.

I'm unable to find any mention of black or gray fibers, consistent with PR's jacket, on the duct tape. Only red.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm unable to find any mention of black or gray fibers, consistent with PR's jacket, on the duct tape. Only red.

Isn't it possible Patsy could have removed the outer red/black fleece jacket as she went along during the evening/morning? Take it from someone who's had the experience, without ovaries, (which I'm sure Patsy had removed during the cancer bout) hot flashes can be torturous. And even without a hot flash, two layers of sweater type fabric worn during the activities of that evening, would have caused a few sweat beads.

If Patsy took the outer jacket off, wearing only the red sweater for a while, that might account for just finding red fibers. Would have been easy to slip it back on before French arrived - just to keep up that lovely appearance she would have wanted to present. :moo:

 

[Chrishope]

Isn't it possible Patsy could have removed the outer red/black fleece jacket as she went along during the evening/morning? Take it from someone who's had the experience, without ovaries, (which I'm sure Patsy had removed during the cancer bout) hot flashes can be torturous. And even without a hot flash, two layers of sweater type fabric worn during the activities of that evening, would have caused a few sweat beads.

If Patsy took the outer jacket off, wearing only the red sweater for a while, that might account for just finding red fibers. Would have been easy to slip it back on before French arrived - just to keep up that lovely appearance she would have wanted to present. :moo:

Sure, that's possible.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you. Shedability - the potential for fabric to shed fibers, is dependent, in part, on the fabric material. The potential for shedding by fabric type is wool, acrylic, cotton, polyester, nylon.

Chrishope,
So how did Patsy's fibers shed into the ligature knotting, despite Patsy not being present in the basement?

How did fibers from Patsy's clothing shed onto the underside of the duct-tape, placed over JonBenet's mouth?

One such occurrence of what you describe a secondary tranfer is possible, but four is questionable, particularly, when you have multiple fiber types at different locations.

The fibers from Johns shirt and those from Patsy's sweater and jacket place both parents at the scene of the crime.

This is just one reason why docg's theory can never fly!



.

 

[UKGuy]

When you say you aren't aware of fibers on JB's hair clothes or body does that mean the evidence team looked for fibers in those areas and didn't find them, or does it mean you don't know? I would find it surprising if there weren't a few fibers on JB.

It's not a leap of logic at all to conclude that the fibers are there from primary contact with PR's clothing. I'm not denying the possibility of primary transfer. It's also not a leap of logic to conclude that the fibers could have been transferred secondarily. So my opinion is that the fiber evidence is inconclusive.

For reasons that I've just discovered in my reading tonight, it appears that the black shirt fibers of JR's are inconclusive too. More on that when I finish my theory of the case for the member's theory thread.

Chrishope,
You will have egg on your face if you make this claim. At most someone used John's Israeli manufactured shirt to wipe JonBenet down, and that person need not be John Ramsey.


.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm unable to find any mention of black or gray fibers, consistent with PR's jacket, on the duct tape. Only red.

From Kolar's book, pg 151:"Only days before the presentation, BPD investigators had learned that fibers from Patsy Ramsey's black and red Essentials jacket were consistent with those found on the duct tape.

From Kolar's book, pg 25: "French observed John Ramsey to be dressed a long-sleeved blue and white pin=striped shirt and khaki pants. Patsy Ramsey's hair and make-up appeared to be neatly done, and she was dressed in a red sweater and black slacks."

Still could have only been red fibers that made it to the duct tape, but I think Kolar would have been more specific if that were the case. He spent too much time writing this book, and consulted with too many credible sources and attorneys to make sure he was giving us the true facts of the case.

And, looks to me that Patsy had removed that black and red jacket sometime before greeting French, or I think he, too, would have reported her wearing the two layers of sweaters.

 

[UKGuy]

From Kolar's book, pg 151:"Only days before the presentation, BPD investigators had learned that fibers from Patsy Ramsey's black and red Essentials jacket were consistent with those found on the duct tape.

From Kolar's book, pg 25: "French observed John Ramsey to be dressed a long-sleeved blue and white pin=striped shirt and khaki pants. Patsy Ramsey's hair and make-up appeared to be neatly done, and she was dressed in a red sweater and black slacks."

Still could have only been red fibers that made it to the duct tape, but I think Kolar would have been more specific if that were the case. He spent too much time writing this book, and consulted with too many credible sources and attorneys to make sure he was giving us the true facts of the case.

And, looks to me that Patsy had removed that black and red jacket sometime before greeting French, or I think he, too, would have reported her wearing the two layers of sweaters.

midwest mama,

And, looks to me that Patsy had removed that black and red jacket sometime before greeting French, or I think he, too, would have reported her wearing the two layers of sweaters.

This is new stuff, and it shows Patsy engaged in staging. Its a question many have long wanted answered, why did she wear worn clothes?


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

From Kolar's book, pg 151:"Only days before the presentation, BPD investigators had learned that fibers from Patsy Ramsey's black and red Essentials jacket were consistent with those found on the duct tape.

From Kolar's book, pg 25: "French observed John Ramsey to be dressed a long-sleeved blue and white pin=striped shirt and khaki pants. Patsy Ramsey's hair and make-up appeared to be neatly done, and she was dressed in a red sweater and black slacks."

Still could have only been red fibers that made it to the duct tape, but I think Kolar would have been more specific if that were the case. He spent too much time writing this book, and consulted with too many credible sources and attorneys to make sure he was giving us the true facts of the case.

And, looks to me that Patsy had removed that black and red jacket sometime before greeting French, or I think he, too, would have reported her wearing the two layers of sweaters.

Absolutely correct, MM. Thank you for the post. In addition, Kolar's book revealed that LE lab has conducted an experiment to address the fiber 'transfer' issue. In limited words, without spoiling the read of Kolar's book, I'll describe this experiment.

As we already know, on the sticky side of the black tape which was placed on JBR lips, the certain quantities of the red fibers have been found to be consistent with the fibers from PR jacket. We also know that FW was placed this tape on the blanket in which JBR was covered in WC. The lab made an experiment: they took the tape and placed on the blanket in many different spots. They did found the same 'consistent with PR jacket' fibers...but in MUCH-MUCH SMALLER QUANTITY....answering the question of the 'secondary' and primary transfer.

 

[Chrishope]

Absolutely correct, MM. Thank you for the post. In addition, Kolar's book revealed that LE lab has conducted an experiment to address the fiber 'transfer' issue. In limited words, without spoiling the read of Kolar's book, I'll describe this experiment.

As we already know, on the sticky side of the black tape which was placed on JBR lips, the certain quantities of the red fibers have been found to be consistent with the fibers from PR jacket. We also know that FW was placed this tape on the blanket in which JBR was covered in WC. The lab made an experiment: they took the tape and placed on the blanket in many different spots. They did found the same 'consistent with PR jacket' fibers...but in MUCH-MUCH SMALLER QUANTITY....answering the question of the 'secondary' and primary transfer.

That's interesting, thank you.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
This is new stuff, and it shows Patsy engaged in staging. Its a question many have long wanted answered, why did she wear worn clothes?
.

My interpretation of Patsy's morning of the 26th garb is this:

Patsy had worn a two-piece sweater ensemble with black slacks to the Christmas dinner at the Whites. The two piece sweater ensemble was a black and red Essentials jacket, (fleece - if I recall) that was worn over a red sweater.

When they arrived home, Patsy supposedly prepared JB for bed, and then had some last minute trip preparations to make. My theory includes her finding a place to rest for a moment, falling asleep due to exhaustion, and being awakened due to the crime against JB having escalated to the point she had to be come involved. I do not think she had enough time to change out of her Christmas dinner clothing and into anything fresh before French arrived, but I do think that she would have wanted to remove the top layer of the sweater ensemble because it was just too hot with both sweaters on and all the activity involved. :moo:

 

[UKGuy]

Actually, when you look at the evidence lists, BOTH red and black fibers from Patsy's fleece sweater/jacket were found, not just the red. There is some confusion about Patsy's clothing that night. She wore a solid RED sweater UNDER the red/black fleece sweater jacket. It was the fleece acrylic fibers from the sweater jacket that were found.

The dark fibers found in the panty crotch were wool from JR's shirt. The red and black fibers in the garrote, paint tote and cord were acrylic, from Patsy's red/black acrylic sweater jacket.

DeeDee249,
Here you go, confirmation on those fibers.

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

Meanwhile the duct tape was sent to the FBI, which had a large database for matching purposes. Special Agent Douglas Deedrick, an FBI hair and fiber specialist who had testified in the O. J. Simpson criminal case, notified the Boulder PD that he had found what seemed to be red and black microscopic fiber traces on the duct tape.

The four fibers would have to be analyzed further to determine what kind they were. Shortly afterward the FBI began a chemical analysis of the adhesive on the duct tape. Eventually they hoped to be able to locate the manufacturer and possibly even find out the approximate date of fabrication. They told the police they might even be able to trace the tape to where it had been bought.

.

 

[UKGuy]

My interpretation of Patsy's morning of the 26th garb is this:

Patsy had worn a two-piece sweater ensemble with black slacks to the Christmas dinner at the Whites. The two piece sweater ensemble was a black and red Essentials jacket, (fleece - if I recall) that was worn over a red sweater.

When they arrived home, Patsy supposedly prepared JB for bed, and then had some last minute trip preparations to make. My theory includes her finding a place to rest for a moment, falling asleep due to exhaustion, and being awakened due to the crime against JB having escalated to the point she had to be come involved. I do not think she had enough time to change out of her Christmas dinner clothing and into anything fresh before French arrived, but I do think that she would have wanted to remove the top layer of the sweater ensemble because it was just too hot with both sweaters on and all the activity involved. :moo:

midwest mama,
Yes, it appears something along those lines occurred. Now those red and black fibers were particular to that fleece sweater, am I interpreting this correctly?

They were found on the sticky side of the duct tape, in the wine-cellar somewhere Patsy said she had not placed foot that day or evening.

Then she removes the fleece for whatever reason, so what was going on?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

The info on the black AND red fibers has been available for years in the evidence lists taken from the body on ACR.

 

[midwest mama]

I am going to try to put two images in this post that have been bothering me. The first is of the mark on JB's right cheek, and the other is of the red line mark in her hand. The first time I tried to enlarge the cheek mark, I looked for what others have previously said might be "prong" marks, but I kept noticing what looked to me like 3 triangular dark dots in the middle of the mark. The "heart" drawing in JB's palm never really did look like a heart to me, even though Patsy said "pretty good little heart" when questioned about it during one of her interviews. And, there was a reference in the autopsy as it being a heart. But I only see two abstract marks with a loopy line drawn between them. In the upper abstract mark - again, upon enlarging the photo as best I can on my PC, I see again, 3 triangular marks - like red dots. Am I seeing things, or can anyone else look at these two photos and tell me if you see them as I do?

Sorry the images may not come off well in this post, as I am not very techie when it comes to these sorts of things like some of you others. But maybe if you go out there on the sites where the photos are, you can pull them up and see if you can get better aspects yourself.




You can click on the photo to enlarge it for better reference.