IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[MsMarple]

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

New surveillance video shown to CBS News reveals the final moments before an 18-month-old girl fell to her death off a Royal Caribbean cruise ship. Chloe Wiegand was being held by her grandfather Salvatore Anello while the ship was docked in Puerto Rico in July...

The video, which has not been released publicly, will be a key piece of evidence in the criminal trial, CBS News correspondent David Begnaud reports. The video shows what appears to be 18-month-old Chloe cross over to the side of the ship and stand in front of a bank of windows. A man attorneys said is Anello is seen following her...

Wow. The still shot in the video (which wasn't taken from the CCTV video) made my stomach bounce for a second, no way could I hold a child up to the window, even from a foot away. WTF was grandpa thinking?

Sitting Chloe on the railing. And that's the scenario that has made the most sense from the beginning. In the interview the attorney says:

"She's sitting on the wooden banister, why did he then lean forward with her?" Begnaud asked Winkleman.

"I think it's pretty obvious why they leaned forward, and that would be so that you could get a better view," Winkleman said.

So "banging on the glass" has now morphed to "getting a better view." Gee, what a surprise. And yeah, the attorney kinda put his foot in his mouth when he again talks about there not being any warning:

"If that was the case and they want no one to sit on it, they should say no one should sit on it. … There's no sign that says that. There's no warning, no nothing," Winkleman said.
Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

And frankly IMO the grandfather's supposed words after dropping Chloe not only verifies that he dropped her but his insistence of there was glass is a bit surprising. IOW, is that what his immediate reaction was, to shout out excuses?
All MOO.

 

[MsMarple]

Please note that no CCTV video is shown. Nothing graphic.

 

[they'll get you]

High security in port. I'm sure there is plenty of surveillance video on and off the ship. IIRC, there were witnesses on the ground as well as on the ship. Another fib by MW: "There were no witnesses".

AND CCTV doesn’t lie.

 

[Medstudies]

bolding mine

Thanks, @oviedo !
Was going to post this but you beat me to it.

He looked.
He knew that window was open.
I stand by my theory that he possibly let her fall.... hoping for a huge payout from the cruise line.
People have killed for far less than what the Wiegand's hoped to receive from their lawsuit, which is still going forward at this time.
The fact that the parents filed a lawsuit within 24 hours of Chloe's death is telling.
The parents would be wise to end their lawsuit effective immediately.
SA is at fault here, and neither the ship nor the staff can prevent passengers from enacting their own free will.
Imo.


bolding mine
And this Winkleman is the same lawyer who claimed SA was not a drinker, never had been, and was not drinking on this cruise.

I would like to see more video from before the incident.
What was SA doing ?

And maybe something else to consider beside alcohol: Was there a recent change in his med history or medications?...

I’m inclined to believe that her death was pure negligence on his part. But I also acknowledge that there are plenty of threads on WS of “nice” people who kill, so I’m at least open to different POV.

last: MOO, I believe the video(s) and witness statements have to be really strong for PR to bring charges. It would be a public relations/tourism nightmare and for them otherwise. Right?

 

[oviedo]

bolding mine

Thanks, @oviedo !
Was going to post this but you beat me to it.

He looked.
He knew that window was open.
I stand by my theory that he possibly let her fall.... hoping for a huge payout from the cruise line.
People have killed for far less than what the Wiegand's hoped to receive from their lawsuit, which is still going forward at this time.
The fact that the parents filed a lawsuit within 24 hours of Chloe's death is telling.
The parents would be wise to end their lawsuit effective immediately.
SA is at fault here, and neither the ship nor the staff can prevent passengers from enacting their own free will.
Imo.


bolding mine
And this Winkleman is the same lawyer who claimed SA was not a drinker, never had been, and was not drinking on this cruise.

I would like to see more video from before the incident.
What was SA doing ?

I have my own opinion on this...the family really should be hoping for a plea deal
JMO

 

[sl222]

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

From this link shared in a previous post, this seems like a different description than what the police shared. CBS saw the video and described.

1. GF looks at the window for a second. Looks "over the rail" whatever that means.

2. GF picks up Chloe and puts her seated on the rail which puts her inches away from the window. (I only got that from the reporters comments, not from the description - the part that she was seated on the rail.)

3. It doesn't explain how she fell - how she was not in his grip.

4. States that seconds later the GF said (basic words paraphrased) "I dropped my child. I thought there was glass."

There is only a foot between the rail and the edge of the window. No idea how he would think it was not open due to both the air and the tinting... we all have said that repeatedly.

Even if you at first thought there "should" be glass, you would immediately realize there wasn't. A normal person would anyway.

I'm not clear on what happened. The police reports, who had seen the video from the start, and would have already talked to witnesses, were very consistent that Chloe was held outside the window. Being inches away from the window is already as risky as it gets. Even though CBS described the video it is now less clear to me what happened. Well if CBS has seen it, then the Daily Mail will soon and they tend to give a more complete story.

To respond to someone else's post, the GF has been married to the GM over 20 years, and he is very crazy about the 2 children; I saw this from my own searching around way back when. Responding to what another person said, I certainly don't think the GF had in mind to kill a child to get money from a lawsuit, no way. But I do think he was criminally negligent. And one way to miss an open window would be him being inebriated.

I just want to be fair and know the facts whatever they are. The CBS thing makes me wonder if this was just a terrible fluke that happened in seconds BUT if he was under the influence, then...

Attorney Winkleman said there were no eyewitnesses, that's odd, because the prosecutors said there are. He also says the ship doesn't tell people not to sit on the rail and that's not true either; doesn't it state that in the boarding instructions?

So is the criminal defense attorney going to say GF's reflexes are bad, vision is bad; we don't know. But even if this was a fluke, the lawsuit threat really stinks.

 

[oviedo]

Yes, it does not sound at all like he dangled her in and of the window and was playing a game as I originally thought.

According to the reporter on CBS and the description of the video, he lifted her up, seating her on the ledge to look out the window and he lost his grasp and she fell.

What a tragedy for this family.
Hopefully this case will be wrapped up soon so they can put the whole thing behind them and begin to heal.

I imagine the grandfather's conviction and sentencing will depend on whether or not it can be proved that he believed there was glass there or not.

The video shows him looking out for a second, but since the ledge was about a foot from the window it sounds like he did not actually have his head outside of the window.

Either way, his actions were neglectful and there's no doubt he will feel guilty for the rest of his life over the loss of his grand daughter.

Imo

This is an example of the space between the railing and the open window. The dailymail posted many photos probably found on thread #1 and I will be taking photos myself (and using a tape measure) - would you put your 18month old on this railing ?

JMO

 

[they'll get you]

It will hinge on whether he put his head out that window or not. The way that CBS article reads to me - there was no dangling risk game visible in the vid - just a quick peek, picking up baby then tragedy a second later.

I see so many parents crouch down to look at the child’s level and I believe Chloé was simply looking through the glass when he picked her up to look out at his height.
IMO.

 

[Medstudies]

And what’s really frustrating is the original (2) threads with all the news stories in July- (before journo scrubbing ) - were deleted. <big sigh>

One particular thing that stood out: “a crew member was shown on video mimicking SA holding the child out the window”

of course I can’t back this up because the threads were deleted and the news articles either disappeared or were scrubbed...

 

[oviedo]

And what’s really frustrating is the original (2) threads with all the news stories in July- (before journo scrubbing ) - were deleted. <big sigh>

One particular thing that stood out: “a crew member was shown on video mimicking SA holding the child out the window”

of course I can’t back this up because the threads were deleted and the news articles either disappeared or were scrubbed...

@Medstudies - I have seen the video - it's still out there somewhere - he is holding his arms out of the window and moving them up and down IMO. If I find it again, I will add the link.

 

[sl222]

The GF first looks over the rail before picking Chloe up - checking either the view or the window.

It's obvious it's an open window already but when you seat the little one on the rail, then you know it's open. Her feet will basically be inches from the window.

And how can she fall out of the window if her center of gravity is a foot back, on the railing??

Her foot could get caught on the ledge. But she's a toddler. So any adult would be grabbing her around the waist firmly. Once the open air was seen (how could it be missed) then you grab a toddler and pull backwards abruptly.

Winkleman did not look too happy; he was saying the old "that's all they have, Sam's statement, no witnesses, etc." which was not very convincing. Then the other anchor just goes for the sympathy angle, as though it just doesn't matter to get to the bottom of how a child lost her life.... because it's too hard to think about. (It definitely is hard to think about.)

I'll bet we'll never know what happened. This will get pled out; I'm surprised it didn't already. On one hand it sounds like the prosecutors have already rejected that possibility or this wouldn't already have gone so far. On the other hand, you could say that if they do a plea bargain then the family can move forward - but not if they plan to sue. Both things are tied together so what a disaster. I can't know what I would do in their shoes though. I don't agree with the lawsuit, but losing a child is the worst thing; filing a lawsuit makes the ship the bad guy so they can explain to their surviving son that it's someone else's fault.... I'm not trying to be hurtful to the parents though. I feel horrible for the parents. If I were them I could not be so forgiving, I don't think.... they say the GF is a wonderful person, so imagine if your favorite extended family member caused your child to die horrifically. You would be terribly torn on top of having to endure the worst grief.

 

[LietKynes]

If she was seated by SA on the railing and fell-- I'd think she might've fallen between the the railing and the closed window beneath the open one.
There are three windows-- the upper closed one, the ones that can be opened in the middle, and the (what looks like) permanently shut ones on the bottom.
The way Winkleman first 'spun' his story-- the open window was at the bottom.

I have a problem with HOW she fell out.
Even leaning forward-- Chloe was a tiny person, just a toddler..
How'd she fall out of that window ?
There's several inches in the video between the railing and the open window.
Just saying.

 

[they'll get you]

If she was seated by SA on the railing and fell-- I'd think she might've fallen between the the railing and the closed window beneath the open one.
There are three windows-- the upper closed one, the ones that can be opened in the middle, and the (what looks like) permanently shut ones on the bottom.
The way Winkleman first 'spun' his story-- the open window was at the bottom.

I have a problem with HOW she fell out.
Even leaning forward-- Chloe was a tiny person, just a toddler..
How'd she fall out of that window ?
There's several inches in the video between the railing and the open window.
Just saying.

ITA. The timber rail is about a foot away from the window, let’s say the window was closed and Chloé fell against the window, IMO she would’ve slipped down between the rail and the class/ledge and had been severely injured as well.

Either way it’s stuff of nightmares.

 

[Medstudies]

@Medstudies - I have seen the video - it's still out there somewhere - he is holding his arms out of the window and moving them up and down IMO. If I find it again, I will add the link.

Thank you! I have looked, but I’m coming up empty. It was here, once upon a time...

 

[sl222]

If she is seated on the rail then actually wouldn't her feet be in the open window? I can't tell the dimensions because different angles make them look different. In that seated position, was her view blocked, causing her to lean her head forward? The reporter said she fell approximately 5 seconds after being seated on the railing. It would take less time than that to pull her to safety.

 

[they'll get you]

Grandfather Charged in Girl's Fatal Fall on Cruise Speaks Out: 'They Can't Do Anything Worse to Me'

“They can’t do anything worse to me than has already happened,”

It was unclear if Anello has entered a plea to the charges. His attorney did not immediately respond to PEOPLE’s request for comment.

Grandfather Charged in Girl's Fatal Fall on Cruise Speaks Out: 'They Can't Do Anything Worse to Me'

 

[sl222]

Grandfather Charged in Girl's Fatal Fall on Cruise Speaks Out: 'They Can't Do Anything Worse to Me'

“They can’t do anything worse to me than has already happened,”

I could say that's a very bad quote. It's all about him. Best to say nothing and let people assume better things. And it's not necessarily true. If he serves time that's nothing compared to what the victim endured. And imo he's distressed to the max about spending time in a jail or prison that's not even in his own home state. Who wouldn't be.

Imo people who make mistakes like this one are self-destructive. I do not say this from the high horse believe me. It is a very difficult thing to overcome.

 

[they'll get you]

Grandad 'had to be sedated' after dropping toddler 150ft to her death on cruise ship

@ 1:44 No ledge under the windows but that’s what I’ll be concentrating on with my photos in 3 weeks time.

 

[oviedo]

Thank you! I have looked, but I’m coming up empty. It was here, once upon a time...

Grandfather who 'dropped toddler 150ft to her death' on cruise ship arrives at court in Puerto Rico | Daily Mail Online

they actually have videos from early on you just have to play them and it moves to the next one - about halfway through there are multiple videos - this is where I saw the person holding his arms up to the window but there is one where his arms are extended outside of the window from what I can tell, and he's moving them up and down.
JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

From this link shared in a previous post, this seems like a different description than what the police shared. CBS saw the video and described.

1. GF looks at the window for a second. Looks "over the rail" whatever that means.

2. GF picks up Chloe and puts her seated on the rail which puts her inches away from the window. (I only got that from the reporters comments, not from the description - the part that she was seated on the rail.)

3. It doesn't explain how she fell - how she was not in his grip.

4. States that seconds later the GF said (basic words paraphrased) "I dropped my child. I thought there was glass."

There is only a foot between the rail and the edge of the window. No idea how he would think it was not open due to both the air and the tinting... we all have said that repeatedly.

Even if you at first thought there "should" be glass, you would immediately realize there wasn't. A normal person would anyway.

I'm not clear on what happened. The police reports, who had seen the video from the start, and would have already talked to witnesses, were very consistent that Chloe was held outside the window. Being inches away from the window is already as risky as it gets. Even though CBS described the video it is now less clear to me what happened. Well if CBS has seen it, then the Daily Mail will soon and they tend to give a more complete story.

To respond to someone else's post, the GF has been married to the GM over 20 years, and he is very crazy about the 2 children; I saw this from my own searching around way back when. Responding to what another person said, I certainly don't think the GF had in mind to kill a child to get money from a lawsuit, no way. But I do think he was criminally negligent. And one way to miss an open window would be him being inebriated.

I just want to be fair and know the facts whatever they are. The CBS thing makes me wonder if this was just a terrible fluke that happened in seconds BUT if he was under the influence, then...

Attorney Winkleman said there were no eyewitnesses, that's odd, because the prosecutors said there are. He also says the ship doesn't tell people not to sit on the rail and that's not true either; doesn't it state that in the boarding instructions?

So is the criminal defense attorney going to say GF's reflexes are bad, vision is bad; we don't know. But even if this was a fluke, the lawsuit threat really stinks.

Yeah, I'm sure he didn't intentionally push his grandchild out the window in order to get some money.
He would have to be some sort of psychopath who hated his family to do something like that.

I wondered if he had been drinking, too, although I think the family said he was not a drinker. If that's true, then if he did have a couple of drinks it may have affected his actions if he is not used to alcohol.

Either way, it was a tragic accident, caused by his negligence. Just lifting up a child and seating her on the window ledge is not a crime. If she had not fallen there would have never been charges. It is because she fell to her death that he is being charged. Even if he serves no prison time this will haunt him for the rest of his life.

Imo