IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[neesaki]

Is the video edited ?
If he sat her on the railing, and if she fell-- I'd expect her to slip between the railing and the bottom window.
She still could've been injured from just that.
It seems like he must have sat her down on the window's ledge.
Horrifying.

Do you think he had her legs / feet out the window ? This is unbelievable.

 

[neesaki]

G'father & Chloe were Separated from Rest of Family. Why?

@BetteDavisEyes bbm Good questions. Good possible answers.
Not hungry?
Or G'father wanted a ciggy?

I wonder --- possibly Chloe was fussy? Maybe family planned to get seated, then order for her & G'father, have them join at the table after she settled down?

@BetteDavisEyes -- On RCL, do passengers commit to any certain dining rooms, restaurants? Do they do that as part of booking, pre-cruise? Or commit to 'seatings' like waaaay back when?
Or is it - 'free range'? Eat anywhere, whatever is open? TiA.

Thanks to you and our other veteran cruisers.

I don’t get any of it, if my baby was fussy or not, on a cruise ship for sure, she would be right there with me. Jmo

 

[sl222]

Video of Chloe Wiegand’s cruise death shows grandfather thought window was closed: lawyer

https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

Wow. This article makes it clear that he knew the window was open. It sounds like despite an open window 150 off the ground, he was so stupid to have a loose grip on her. What would one expect to happen on that flimsy railing? JMO (I can't know what he thought) he simply cried out what he wished was the case because the reality of what he actually did was too horrible to deal with. And he knew it was too late to change the outcome.

 

[sl222]

Video of Chloe Wiegand’s cruise death shows grandfather thought window was closed: lawyer

https://nypost.com/2019/11/22/video...grandfather-thought-window-was-closed-lawyer/

Wow. This article makes it clear that he knew the window was open. It sounds like despite an open window 150 off the ground, he was so stupid to have a loose grip on her. What would one expect to happen on that flimsy railing? JMO (I can't know what he thought) he simply cried out what he wished was the case because the reality of what he actually did was too horrible to deal with. And he knew it was too late to change the outcome.

Also, sitting or standing she is very high up to be holding on to. Higher than waist level on him. Making it that much harder to be safe for long.

 

[LietKynes]

Do you think he had her legs / feet out the window ? This is unbelievable.

Sorry, only parts of your post are showing for me-- not sure about everyone else.

After looking at the photo of that window--- the ledge is 6 or more inches from the wooden railing.
Plus the window ledge is a bit higher than the railing.
So how exactly did she fall ?
If she was propped on the railing, she would've fallen between the window and the wall below.

I'm thinking he sat or stood her on the window ledge and she fell forward --or he WAS dangling her and dropped her.
Maybe she sensed the ground was way below her and panicked and struggled , causing him to lose his grip ?
Ugh !

 

[LietKynes]

Sorry if I'm repeating myself.
Not intentional.
My comments are showing as 'loading' and then the post gets doubled-posted.

 

[MsMarple]

Do you think he had her legs / feet out the window ? This is unbelievable.

IMO he sat her on the railing, not the window ledge. All the msm articles say SA first stood Chloe up on the railing then sat her on it. None have mentioned the window ledge.

What's frustrating is none of the articles describe what happened during those 3 or 4 seconds before she fell. I'm not trying to be macabre, it just feels like there's a gap in the explanation; she's sitting on the railing, SA has two hands on her, they lean forward to see out the window then... 1, 2, 3, 4... Chloe disappears through the window. Maybe I'm overthinking it, I don't know.

 

[oviedo]

Sorry, only parts of your post are showing for me-- not sure about everyone else.

After looking at the photo of that window--- the ledge is 6 or more inches from the wooden railing.
Plus the window ledge is a bit higher than the railing.
So how exactly did she fall ?
If she was propped on the railing, she would've fallen between the window and the wall below.

I'm thinking he sat or stood her on the window ledge and she fell forward --or he WAS dangling her and dropped her.
Maybe she sensed the ground was way below her and panicked and struggled , causing him to lose his grip ?
Ugh !

I think the game got out of hand -IMO he was dangling her out the window she became terrified and her feet didn’t touch ground and squirmed and she slipped (for whatever reason sunblock, drinking, cigarette in one hand?) so yes I completely agree with you hence the negligent homicide charge
JMO
I’ve stood on the similar deck on other ships - there is no way you can mistake an open window for a closed one and that is doubly sad IMO

 

[MsMarple]

JMO but if SA had sat Chloe on the actual window ledge or dangled her out of the window then why are none of the msm reporters who saw the video putting that in their headlines or articles? Seems like that would be a heck of a bombshell so why would any of them instead print what they printed? Surely the Daily Mail at least would have happily run with it if that was the case. MOO.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Hi @LietKynes ... & thank you!
I am not sure who has seen the video but I'd like to know that as well.
I do know that MW is trying to claim that this video "proves" that SA didn't know the window was open and didn't act negligently.
I thought it was interesting that the reporter says that the first part of the video shows Chloe walking across a big expanse of floor by herself... and then the grandfather followed. Idk, if it was my 18- month old, I think I would keep them closer to me in that situation, it was only the first day in the ship, unfamiliar environment, etc.
However it reminded me of another pic I had seen of SA and Chloe which shows him focusing a lot of attention on a dog and Chloe just kind of standing behind him alone. He's not even looking at her.
To be fair, a photo doesn't tell the whole story and I have no idea what was really going on or if she was also being watched by someone else at the time. This is just me speculating but something about this pic always rubbed me the wrong

Edited for focus, respectfully:
At the Notre Dame game picture, grandma? is eating popcorn. Interesting that no drinks are shown in picture. Popcorn gets stuck in my throat after awhile if I can’t wash it down with something. Wonder what they were drinking?
Besides. Where is her brother?[/QUOTE]

 

[Sillybilly]

Please read the following message from Tricia:

Hey Friends,

This is very important. Please listen to my latest podcast, Websleuths Radio Podcast.

You can find it on Apple here and on Spotify here.


Or anywhere you can find true crime podcasts.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to Websleuths and our podcast for you to listen and ask your friends to listen as well. If Websleuths is going to continue (forum and podcast) we need you to listen to Websleuths Radio Podcast.

We need you to listen, ask your friends to listen and ask their friends to listen. Please get the word out. There is a new podcast in town and it is one you do not want to miss.

This week Heather Robinson Ramos. As a baby, Heather's mom was killed by serial killer John Robinson. Robinson then "adopted" baby Heather to his brother and his wife.

Also, please listen to the new podcast called Detective Trapp. To help Websleuths check out a little taste of this podcast.

Detective Trapp on Apple Podcasts

Thank you to everyone.

Tricia
Owner, Websleuths

 

[Midwestmom2019]

JMO but if SA had sat Chloe on the actual window ledge or dangled her out of the window then why are none of the msm reporters who saw the video putting that in their headlines or articles? Seems like that would be a heck of a bombshell so why would any of them instead print what they printed? Surely the Daily Mail at least would have happily run with it if that was the case. MOO.

Video doesn’t show that. Eye witness testimony especially employee who first noticed him dangling her was what PR LE reported.
And now, MSM doesn’t know who the eye witnesses are, or if they even exist. Repeating Winkleman saying only videos and SA testimony to establish fault.
I did notice the criminal lawyer said substantially as SA described the events. Hedging already. Guess a plea deal is coming. Mom will try to weigh in on plea bargain. But this is not Indiana. This is PR.

 

[MsMarple]

Please read the following message from Tricia:

Hey Friends,

This is very important. Please listen to my latest podcast, Websleuths Radio Podcast.

You can find it on Apple here and on Spotify here.


Or anywhere you can find true crime podcasts.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to Websleuths and our podcast for you to listen and ask your friends to listen as well. If Websleuths is going to continue (forum and podcast) we need you to listen to Websleuths Radio Podcast.

We need you to listen, ask your friends to listen and ask their friends to listen. Please get the word out. There is a new podcast in town and it is one you do not want to miss.

This week Heather Robinson Ramos. As a baby, Heather's mom was killed by serial killer John Robinson. Robinson then "adopted" baby Heather to his brother and his wife.

Also, please listen to the new podcast called Detective Trapp. To help Websleuths check out a little taste of this podcast.

Detective Trapp on Apple Podcasts

Thank you to everyone.

Tricia
Owner, Websleuths

Done. Listening now...

 

[MsMarple]

Video doesn’t show that. Eye witness testimony especially employee who first noticed him dangling her was what PR LE reported.

Wait - are you saying something happened to the video and a portion is missing? Or that someone edited it? I thought they said they had video from multiple angles.

Do you remember if that early report was in English or Spanish? I'll look for a link but I believe someone else said they couldn't find it anymore.

ETA: I did manage to find this:
Police chief Scott Ruszkowski disputed the statement issued by Puerto Rico police that the girl was being held out of the window.
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death
Police release statement after daughter of SB officer dies on cruise ship in Puerto Rico

 

[they'll get you]

Isn't Winkelman flagrantly violating the court order by distributing video clips? It's one thing for a journalist to do something but it seems inappropriate for a member of the bar to be publicly flouting the confidentiality of the evidence. I'm not surprised that he'd see it or distribute it on the down low, but to do it publicly doesn't seem right.

This is becoming a dog breakfast!
If it is released to the public then it’s not anyone’s fault but Winkelman‘s surely he had a go-ahead from his clients & RCCL to show the journalist. There’d have to be a confidentiality agreements signed somewhere.

 

[book-thinker]

Daily mail wrote in the same article: He was quizzed by police in the hours after Chloe's fall but left San Juan without
giving a formal witness statement, blaming confusion, his extreme distress and the lack of an interpreter.

IMO I don't buy the lack of an interpreter. Most residents in Puerto Rico speak excellent english. The cruises ship docks in ports where the need of english speaking is a must for tourism. I believe he was terrified of being detained in Puerto Rico by LE.
Possible he talked with a lawyer in the united states before leaving Puerto Rico and was advised to leave the country as quickly as possible.
But still the family had to stay in PR till Chloe's body was allowed to leave Puerto Rico. I would believe that would take
several days.

 

[book-thinker]

Wait - are you saying something happened to the video and a portion is missing? Or that someone edited it? I thought they said they had video from multiple angles.

Do you remember if that early report was in English or Spanish? I'll look for a link but I believe someone else said they couldn't find it anymore.

ETA: I did manage to find this:
Police chief Scott Ruszkowski disputed the statement issued by Puerto Rico police that the girl was being held out of the window.
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death
Police release statement after daughter of SB officer dies on cruise ship in Puerto Rico

I wonder is parts of the video were edited to the media.

 

[they'll get you]

I'm almost 50 and I win marathon swimming events. He's an idiot IMO. In no way would I do that to my child...I had huge fears even walking along the Royal Gorge Bridge.

Exactly! Who sit a child on the railing of a bridge?

 

[they'll get you]

To Future Cruisers. Photos & Measurements?
A few ppl here said they've booked upcoming cruises, one on Freedom/Seas, in next few months. One poster plans to take photos & measure. I'd like to see Pix on Deck 11.
Straight-on Views of "The Window" (or one of the operable windows, preferably open),
---------- w entire full adjoining (non-operable?) windows on left & right of it, in image.(About 10 ft away?)
--------- ^ same, w ruler/scale at bottom of window (horizontal) & ruler at side of window (vertical).
---------- ^ same, but photographer stepping away from window, ~ 20 ft. Repeat at 30 ft .
---------- ^ same, but photographer stepping away from window, ~ dividing line w H20 Zone?
Straight-on Views of "The Window" (or one of the operable windows, preferably open),
---------- ^ image also showing distance to floor.
---------- ^ same w ruler/scale in place vertically, showing distance from floor to bottom of window.
Views of Railing
---------- to show width (w & w'out ruler/scale};
---------- to show thickness (w & w'out ruler/scale).
Side Views (w, camera btwn window wall & railing, at railing height, maybe other heights too?)
---------- showing distance between window & railing.
-------- ^ same but w ruler/scale in place, btwn window-wall & railing.

I think we're all looking forward to seeing pictures, from Freedom of the Seas & sister cruiseships and from other cruiselines. I wonder if railing and window heights are widely different or if they are similar.
Thanks in advance to our cruising & sleuthing families.

I’ll do my best on the sister ship Voyager in 3 weeks time.
I won’t be using a tape measure but using my female hand, arm and showing measurements against my height of 5’5”.
I’m sure a tape measure might gain too much attention.

For some reason WS won’t accept videos from my IPhone as they are too large so I’ll have to rely on photos. I’ll try to do it discreetly the day we board & while I have wifi available.
I’ll have to duck away as hubby would be mortified.

 

[TDoc72]

"If that was the case and they want no one to sit on it, they should say no one should sit on it. … There's no sign that says that. There's no warning, no nothing," Winkleman said.

It’s chest high. How are people climbing up there? Why would you need a sign for something everyone can’t reach? Stupid lawyer.

Right? This was same video I posted in thread 1 Pg 3. The person who shot it has commented that they had had no idea it would be of such interest.

And of note: there were a few windows open, and yet no one on the ship seemed alarmed by this fact...

What? People aren’t sitting on the rails and falling out willy-nilly? That’s what the lawyer & parents are implying!