IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #4

[Safeguard]

Veracity of Allegation in Complaint?

Re claim below, that Chloe asked to be lifted up - can anyone see any visual indication of this on the 'leaked vids'? If so, I'd appreciate a link with timestamp/timecode. TiA.
"19. Consequently, when Chloe approached the wall of glass, Mr. Anello reasonably believed that this was a wall of fixed glass with no openings
20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."

Without sound, there is no way to tell. My guess is they could be making that up, as well as SA crying out "I thought there was glass there" (Said no one ever!). They can make up any number of things and just claim no one heard them, or can't recall. Notice how, at first, not one person said he yelled that he thought the window was closed? ( which is how real people talk btw ). None of the earliest reports ever indicated that.

 

[Safeguard]

Drat! Double post

 

[al66pine]

"Leaking" the Vids? So What?
Lots of discussion about "leaking" the vids, almost as if they are top secret, classified government recordings w crim penalties for disclosing, publishing, or distributing. They're not.
From a commonsense legal angle, the vids themselves are the property of the cruiseline, w cameras capturing images of passengers onboard ship, in areas where they have no reasonable expectation of privacy (like they may have in their cabins or staterooms). IOW, not unlike surv vids recorded in open area of a retail store, but RCCL terms are in black & white.
RCCL’s “Cruise Contract” terms allow cruiseline to record photos, audios, & videos of passengers, use them for virtually any purpose, and display & “distribute it in any type of media” per bolded language below.*


In demanding an “independent investigation” into who leaked the vids, Chloe’s Mother is acting as if she & Chloe’s Father had solid basis for suppressing the vids, but imo, is grabbing at spiderwebs. jmo

Note: If an LE or prosecutor employee provided vids to media, such an employee may have (likely?) violated an office policy, may be subject to employee disciplinary action (reprimand, suspension, etc., but not likely a criminal act, imo.
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* https://www.royalcaribbean.com/ Scroll down to bottom of home page, to “Cruise Contract”

“14. USE OF PHOTOS, VIDEOS OR RECORDINGS: a. Guest hereby grants to Carrier (and its assignees and licensees) the exclusive right throughout the universe and in perpetuity to include photographic, video, audio and other visual or audio portrayals of Passenger taken during or in connection with the Cruise or CruiseTour (including any images, likenesses or voices) in any medium of any nature whatsoever (including the right to edit, combine with other materials or create any type of derivative thereof) for the purpose of trade, advertising, sales, publicity, promotional, training or otherwise, without compensation to the Guest. Such grant shall include the unrestricted right to copy, revise, distribute, display and sell photographs, images, films, tapes, drawings or recordings in any type of media...."

 

[neesaki]

This is agonizing.

I have three grandchildren. One of them lived with me from infancy until 3 1/2. I've traveled with her and have done all the grandma things with all of them. I've been on numerous cruises, including on Royal Caribbean.

When this first happened, I told my sister I'd have to kill myself if I had accidentally caused the death of my grandchild. There would be no way to live with myself and the utter anguish I had caused.
When the parents showed up on TV, giving their spin, I thought they were wrong to blame the cruise ship, but I "knew" it was just transferred anger and grief. How could they blame the grandfather when he was so loving and close with Chloe, and it was such an unfortunate and dreadful accident? They'd be losing another loved one, in a way.
When I first heard that charges were filed against him, I thought that was brutal. He'd suffered enough.

Seeing this video has swept me away. He is clearly leaning as far out of the open window as he can, like at a 45° angle. Chloe is somewhere near him on the floor. I thought that even without what was about to follow, he leaned out for too long and wasn't watching Chloe. Everyone with children knows you can't take your eyes off a toddler for a second.
Then he withdraws from the CLEARLY OPEN window, bends down, hoists her up, and we see this little flash of pink and a hat and she is now OUTSIDE the window. And that's it.

What is the conduit between Chloe and the high, high above her, totally open window? Just her grandfather. Now I understand why charges were filed. She was in peril from the moment her little legs left the floor.
My father is also colorblind, but he knows what a window is, so he would not have even thought to insert his children, grandchildren, and eventually great-grandchildren OUT of a window 11 stories high. Or even on a ground floor.

I feel grief for the parents because they lost their child in such an avoidable way, but they should have stopped there. To twist this horror into the fault of anyone else has changed the story, along with the twisting of the truth.

Maybe the grandfather was in shock and truly couldn't recollect what he'd done. I know he can't process it, but with the video, it's time for the family to back down, help their son, and try to find a way to carry on.

Thank you very, very much for your well thought out post, Arkay. I think you're very close to correct on many points of this horrific and tragic case.

And a very large Welcome to the Websleuths Forum.

 

[neesaki]

Veracity of Allegation in Complaint?

Re claim below, that Chloe asked to be lifted up - can anyone see any visual indication of this on the 'leaked vids'? If so, I'd appreciate a link with timestamp/timecode. TiA.
"19. Consequently, when Chloe approached the wall of glass, Mr. Anello reasonably believed that this was a wall of fixed glass with no openings
20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."

I don't, and have never believed it. If anything, I think the psycho GF directed her to the glass / windows as he was squatting down against that column or whatever it was. If you recall, he's the one who insisted that she always wanted to "bang on the glass" . Which is strange in itself for a less than two year old old baby girl, don't you think ?

What was even stranger, was HIS behavior and actions. What kind of adult would do what he did ? Now THAT'S what is more than strange... it is downright scary. This man is a serious danger to society and needs to Go Away. I have no idea why the focus was placed on saving him, but justice for that sweet, innocent baby girl is all that matters at this point. JMO

 

[TDoc72]

Chloe Wiegand Royal Caribbean Lawsuit | Negligence | Damages

Page 11
Other Cruise Lines’ Vessels
28. Other cruise lines comply with the same ASTM standards and/or similar standards in order to protect passengers generally, and children specifically, from injuries and/or deaths related to falls from windows. 29.
For instance, the glass panes on the pool deck aboard Carnival’s vessel(s) do not open at
all, as depicted below from the
Carnival Breeze

View attachment 221730

Seeing how it looks in that pic, he could’ve lifted her over the top of the window. And would still say it was the boat’s fault.

 

[Safeguard]

"Leaking" the Vids? So What?

Lots of discussion about "leaking" the vids, almost as if they are top secret, classified government recordings w crim penalties for disclosing, publishing, or distributing. They're not.

Right? Down the rabbit hole some more we go...
If the ccv as they claim, totally vindicates SA, why not show it? It's not like it shows her gruesome end. It shows her alive and well and then... nothing... We all know what happened, how she died.
One would think they would want to vindicate Grandpa, who totally innocently believed there was glass there.

 

[al66pine]

dbm

 

[SouthAussie]

Without sound, there is no way to tell. My guess is they could be making that up, as well as SA crying out "I thought there was glass there" (Said no one ever!). They can make up any number of things and just claim no one heard them, or can't recall. Notice how, at first, not one person said he yelled that he thought the window was closed? ( which is how real people talk btw ). None of the earliest reports ever indicated that.

What's the bet that whatever he said could be remotely taken as "I thought there was glass there" (if holding your head in a bucket of water, and having a mouthful of marbles, while screaming it).

It will be interesting to learn what the witnesses say he said.

 

[al66pine]

Veracity of Allegation in Complaint? Revisited.
Re claim that Chloe asked to be lifted up - can anyone see any visual indication of this on the 'leaked vids'? If so, I'd appreciate a link with timestamp/timecode. TiA.
" 20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."

Without sound, there is no way to tell. My guess is they could be making that up,...

@Safeguard sbm
Yes, "without sound." Can anyone see visual indication she wanted to be lifted?
Like, seeing her arms spread out & reaching up to G'pa? Or? Link & timestamp pls?

If vid shows that ^, I won't ask for any mindreading about WHY she wanted to be lifted up. <---sarc
Hard for me to tell, w herky-jerky, Keystone Kops vid.

 

[Safeguard]

What's the bet that whatever he said could be remotely taken as "I thought there was glass there" (if holding your head in a bucket of water, and having a mouthful of marbles, while screaming it).

It will be interesting to learn what the witnesses say he said.

I don't think SA has any "Marbles" . He lost them a long time ago, if he ever had any to begin with!
But yes it surly will be interesting to see how this farce plays out...

 

[SouthAussie]

This is a worry...

Chloe Wiegand Royal Caribbean Lawsuit | Negligence | Damages
Page 13
31.
At all times material hereto, Defendant knew or should have known of the industry standard set forth by other cruise lines, including, but not limited to, Carnival and NCL, yet Defendant’s vessel was not in compliance with such standards

View attachment 221729
Page 14

33. The fact that Defendant’s newer vessels comply with industry standards on windows,
including the Anthem of the Seas, serves as evidence that Defendant knew or should have known of the foregoing industry standards set forth by the ASTM and/or other cruise lines

View attachment 221728

Not really, I don't think it is too much of a worry. See, the thing is Winkleman is not citing the standards for ships and ship building. Why not?

ASTM has many standards, but nothing for ship construction. These standards are geared towards buildings.
It is just Winkleman's opinion that Royal Caribbean should have been following those guidelines.

Building & Construction Overview - ASTM International


If he wants to start quoting standards, I think he needs to quote them from here .....
ISO - 47.020.01 - General standards related to shipbuilding and marine structures

And if there are issues, I think it is up to the Coast Guard to point them out (as I posted much earlier). So, we will need to wait and see if the Coast Guard has ever written them up for a breach in standards for a vessel carrying passengers to and from a US port (which I personally doubt because I think that prominent guardrail has them covered).

 

[Safeguard]

Veracity of Allegation in Complaint? Revisited.
Re claim that Chloe asked to be lifted up - can anyone see any visual indication of this on the 'leaked vids'? If so, I'd appreciate a link with timestamp/timecode. TiA.
" 20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."
@Safeguard sbm
Yes, "without sound." Can anyone see visual indication she wanted to be lifted?
Like, seeing her arms spread out & reaching up to G'pa? Or? Link & timestamp pls?

If vid shows that ^, I won't ask for any mindreading about WHY she wanted to be lifted up. <---sarc
Hard for me to tell, w herky-jerky, Keystone Kops vid.

You can't see her until he lifts her up about waist high because of the position of some other patrons (imo). On the re-watch ( again uhg!) she does seem to me, eager to look out for what it's worth perhaps she did want to be picked up, as small children are know to enjoy being carried and seeing things at adult level...

 

[Arkay]

Veracity of Allegation in Complaint? Revisited.
Re claim that Chloe asked to be lifted up - can anyone see any visual indication of this on the 'leaked vids'? If so, I'd appreciate a link with timestamp/timecode. TiA.
" 20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."
@Safeguard sbm
Yes, "without sound." Can anyone see visual indication she wanted to be lifted?
Like, seeing her arms spread out & reaching up to G'pa? Or? Link & timestamp pls?

If vid shows that ^, I won't ask for any mindreading about WHY she wanted to be lifted up. <---sarc
Hard for me to tell, w herky-jerky, Keystone Kops vid.

 

[al66pine]

ASTM, Referenced in Complaint. A Violation Means What?
Short Version:
Complying w ASTM may be only "best practices" i.e., a good idea, not mandated by law.

Longer Version
Complaint alleges multiple times that RCCL's Frdm/Seas window configuration violates ASTM standards. Per below, compliance w ASTM standards is voluntary, unless adopted as a requirement by "an external contract, corporation, or government."* etc.
Not clear to me if US govt, or interntl compact, etc. now requires this. The other cruiselines following ASTM window standards may be doing so as a matter of following "best practices" only. If that's the case, then it may not be an "industry standard." Violation may/may not be relevant or material.

-----------------------------------------
* "ASTM International,... is an international standards organization that develops and publishes voluntary consensus technical standards for a wide range of materials, products, systems, and services....
"ASTM International has no role in requiring or enforcing compliance with its standards. The standards, however, may become mandatory when referenced by an external contract, corporation, or government.
ASTM International - Wikipedia

 

[Arkay]

Sorry, it's my second day on Websleuths and I accidentally posted the quote before I replied. Still learning!
I'm replying to whether or not Chloe asked to be picked up,
Unless a passenger or crew member overheard this and comes forward, we won't know since there's no sound. However, if there is another visual showing her raising her arms to the grandfather, or even if he says he heard her say something like "up up up," he should have responded in the responsible way. Hold her on your hip, both arms embracing her, walk to a foot away from the window, continue holding her and let her peek through the window at a safe distance, then take her elsewhere and go on to the next thing.. Tragedy averted.

 

[Safeguard]

Sorry, it's my second day on Websleuths and I accidentally posted the quote before I replied. Still learning!
I'm replying to whether or not Chloe asked to be picked up,
Unless a passenger or crew member overheard this and comes forward, we won't know since there's no sound. However, if there is another visual showing her raising her arms to the grandfather, or even if he says he heard her say something like "up up up," he should have responded in the responsible way. Hold her on your hip, both arms embracing her, walk to a foot away from the window, continue holding her and let her peek through the window at a safe distance, then take her elsewhere and go on to the next thing.. Tragedy averted.

So perfectly true it hurts. "If only" is the specter that will forever haunt.

Welcome to Websleuths Arkay!

 

[al66pine]

Sorry, it's my second day on Websleuths and I accidentally posted the quote before I replied. Still learning!
....

@Arkay sbm No worries. I've been here for years and still mess up sometimes.
You're doing great. Glad you're here.

 

[they'll get you]

Seeing how it looks in that pic, he could’ve lifted her over the top of the window. And would still say it was the boat’s fault.

The heights vary around the ship. At the back overlooking the wake the metal wall is about 5’ high so what’s to say he did the same when out to sea. I hate to think what this person was capable of.
Curiously it was done close to witnesses and a ‘wall of windows’

 

[SouthAussie]

Without sound, there is no way to tell. My guess is they could be making that up, as well as SA crying out "I thought there was glass there" (Said no one ever!). They can make up any number of things and just claim no one heard them, or can't recall. Notice how, at first, not one person said he yelled that he thought the window was closed? ( which is how real people talk btw ). None of the earliest reports ever indicated that.

I was just thinking about this a bit more - I wonder if he sobbed something like 'I didn't have my glasses on' ... or 'where are my glasses' ... or 'I need my glasses' ... or 'I dropped my glasses'.
I notice he wears glasses.

As you say, nothing about a 'window', which would seem more usual. Just about glass(es?).