IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #4

[Safeguard]

I don't believe the family wanted it leaked on purpose, to test the waters. I don't think they ever wanted it seen by anyone, if they had their way.

That's why they were so aggressive coming out of the gate, and so dishonest about the circumstances. They wanted a quick resolution with RCCL, so it would taint any upcoming trial against Grandpa. And they hoped to get the public on their side---which they did at first.

The pubic release of the video was a game changer. There is no room for 'color blindness' defense or 'open window' confusion after seeing that video.

They didn't want that video released. And they were probably going to fight it's admission into the trial, saying whatever legal excuses they could muster up. JMO

Well your probably right the family didn't want it leaked, but the legal team was what I was thinking, the footage is the lynch pin of their whole case, if it fails to persuade, better they know now. We don't know who leaked it. I doubt there will be any huge investigation about that.

I don't think they ever had the public on their side, not even "at first", and certainly not now. I've only seen about three comments anywhere ever that felt the cruise line had any fault at all. And those tended to be people who fell for the 'open window in a kid area' line...

Most rational adults don't hold toddlers out of windows.

 

[MsMarple]

So... I just Googled "banging on glass hockey game" and watched videos of the glass breaking. It seems the glass used in hockey rinks is tempered so in a state of stress. What that means is if you hit it with something of similar hardness (the video I saw showed a guy who was wearing a stainless steel ring) it can shatter.

Yeah, toddlers banging on glass is a great idea as long as they don't bang on it with a steel toy.

ETA: I just watched a YouTube video where pucks shattered the glass.

 

[KR72]

So... I just Googled "banging on glass hockey game" and watched videos of the glass breaking. It seems the glass used in hockey rinks is tempered so in a state of stress. What that means is if you hit it with something of similar hardness (the video I saw showed a guy who was wearing a stainless steel ring) it can shatter.

Yeah, toddlers banging on glass is a great idea as long as they don't bang on it with a steel toy.

ETA: I just watched a YouTube video where pucks shattered the glass.

I totally agree, the glass at hockey arenas is not meant to be banged on, it's there as a safety feature which doesn't mean that it is 100% foolproof. Anyone banging on it should be stopped, even if that person is a toddler who doesn't know any better. That's what parents are for. A toddler slapping or hitting it won't break it, but the same can't be said 100% of the time for glass in a window, door, aquarium etc...

 

[katydid23]

Well your probably right the family didn't want it leaked, but the legal team was what I was thinking, the footage is the lynch pin of their whole case, if it fails to persuade, better they know now. We don't know who leaked it. I doubt there will be any huge investigation about that.

I don't think they ever had the public on their side, not even "at first", and certainly not now. I've only seen about three comments anywhere ever that felt the cruise line had any fault at all. And those tended to be people who fell for the 'open window in a kid area' line...

Most rational adults don't hold toddlers out of windows.

Yes, I doubt there will be an investigation about who leaked it.

When the family made that angry statement about being outraged it was leaked, and wanting an immediate investigation---made me think that maybe RCCL leaked it. I would have.

I still don't think the defense team wanted it out there. They know it is not helpful in any way. They tried releasing it in a very limited and controlled fashion---showing it to chosen journalists and trying to spin it the way they wanted. I think that worked for awhile.

I saw many 'positive' comments saying it was wrong to charge the poor grandpa, let him grieve, it was just an accident. We even saw those comments here.

And I did see comments saying 'WHY allow open windows' so high up---there is no need and it is too dangerous. So their message was getting through at first, imo.

 

[SouthAussie]

I totally agree, the glass at hockey arenas is not meant to be banged on, it's there as a safety feature which doesn't mean that it is 100% foolproof. Anyone banging on it should be stopped, even if that person is a toddler who doesn't know any better. That's what parents are for. A toddler slapping or hitting it won't break it, but the same can't be said 100% of the time for glass in a window, door, aquarium etc...

Yes. And if a puck had hit the glass and shattered it right when Chloe was standing there doing her toddler banging?

I think that all they have done with their pic and their hockey-glass-banging/cruise-ship-glass-banging stories is given the prosecution more ammo to prove the negligence of SA - if need be.

 

[MsMarple]

I totally agree, the glass at hockey arenas is not meant to be banged on, it's there as a safety feature which doesn't mean that it is 100% foolproof. Anyone banging on it should be stopped, even if that person is a toddler who doesn't know any better. That's what parents are for. A toddler slapping or hitting it won't break it, but the same can't be said 100% of the time for glass in a window, door, aquarium etc...

That's a good point - how exactly does a toddler differentiate between the hockey rink glass and an aquarium? Clearly SA was teaching her that it's okay to bang on any old glass, no worries about it cracking or shattering. And if it does... lawsuit!

 

[Safeguard]

Yes. And if a puck had hit the glass and shattered it right when Chloe was standing there doing her toddler banging?

I think that all they have done with their pic and their hockey-glass-banging/cruise-ship-glass-banging stories is given the prosecution more ammo to prove the negligence of SA - if need be.

That occurred to me as well. I am having a hard time seeing how they think they're going anywhere with this whole circus. All they seem to be accomplishing is decreasing public sympathy.
If, as has been suggested, it's all about publicity then I would caution the Lawyer "be careful what you wish for!"

 

[al66pine]

Who Had the Vids? Who Leaked Them?

Yes, I doubt there will be an investigation about who leaked it. When the family made that angry statement about being outraged it was leaked, and wanting an immediate investigation---made me think that maybe RCCL leaked it. I would have....

@katydid23 Good point.
Repeating some info & questions posted a few days ago. Who leaked it?

July __ RCCL had vids of events leading to Chloe's death.
July __ RCCL provided (copies?) too PR LE.
____? PR LE provided to PR prosecutor
____? After G'pa was charged, prosecutor wd/have produced vids for def atty.
____? ____who? provided some/all? to Winkleman
Dec 12-15? Winkleman showed to some reporters.
Dec _? Some reporters aired interviews w Wink, referring to vids, but not showing them.
_____? __Who? leaked some/all vids to La Comay/PR MegaTV,
Dec 17? La Comay/PR MegaTV, aired the vids.

What about a cruiseline employee - more or less lower level for $$$$? Not an exec?
Since PR TV first to air the vids, how about Leaker being a PR resident, rather than mainland? Who?

Thx in adv for help on dates & theories of the Leaker's ID. Bonus points for motivation. jmo

 

[Chikkamma]

That is a very strange statement considering Puerto Rico is part of the USA. Puerto Ricans are Americans.

I went to medical school in Puerto Rico. The history of how they came to be a US territory is not a pleasant one. They have US passports, but they have no voting rights, which is a quintessential American right. Also, their cultural values and family structures are more aligned with what I see when I visit India (ethnically Indian) than the USA. They may be US citizens, but it is a very different culture.

 

[Safeguard]

It makes the most sense that PR released the footage of Chloe's death. However Winkle is a piece of...work, so if he wanted an early indicator of the need for a different strategy he would be crappy enough to make it look like the cruise line leaked it, to garner more sympathy for the family. That was just one thought. Most likely it was leaked by someone in PR. Or one of the many employees who could have obtained a copy.

It was most certainly not leaked by the press here. Because that is NOT the copy they were shown. They were given the heavily edited time elapsed version that Winkie was hoping would make it look it look like the incident just happened in one quick second, like SA 'Strolled- over-held-her-up-oops-OMG-no-glass.

There an even longer version out there. I did read one account where the footage continued on showing the family members arriving at the window, however I can no longer seem to find that article. Not that we need it to show SA leisurely placed Chloe in a deadly situation and he obviously checked out the window quite thoroughly before putting her there.

Winkleman showed to some reporters.

 

[neesaki]

I believe he's 51...an old 51.

Yep, 51 is definitely not old, and actually rather young. Although he could easily pass for 61, IMO.

That aside, what would any of us.... who are around my age ? ..... give to be 51 again, LOL. Believe you me, 10 - 15 years, makes a hell of a lot of difference. And, for those of us anywhere near my age, I know you know what I mean.

 

[neesaki]

This is not a poor family. They live in Granger, Indiana, which is the wealthiest city in the area. Take a look at the comparison between South Bend and Granger median income.

I’ve worked quite a few times with the South Bend Fire firefighters, and they make jokes about Granger. “Firefighters are getting a raise, we’re all moving to Granger, lol.

Well that's some interesting information. Thank you IceIce9.

 

[Kindred]

Yes. And if a puck had hit the glass and shattered it right when Chloe was standing there doing her toddler banging?

I think that all they have done with their pic and their hockey-glass-banging/cruise-ship-glass-banging stories is given the prosecution more ammo to prove the negligence of SA - if need be.

Next they'll blame it on the green men

 

[they'll get you]

This is a worry...

Chloe Wiegand Royal Caribbean Lawsuit | Negligence | Damages
Page 13
31.
At all times material hereto, Defendant knew or should have known of the industry standard set forth by other cruise lines, including, but not limited to, Carnival and NCL, yet Defendant’s vessel was not in compliance with such standards


Page 14

33. The fact that Defendant’s newer vessels comply with industry standards on windows,
including the Anthem of the Seas, serves as evidence that Defendant knew or should have known of the foregoing industry standards set forth by the ASTM and/or other cruise lines

 

[Arkay]

This is agonizing.

I have three grandchildren. One of them lived with me from infancy until 3 1/2. I've traveled with her and have done all the grandma things with all of them. I've been on numerous cruises, including on Royal Caribbean.

When this first happened, I told my sister I'd have to kill myself if I had accidentally caused the death of my grandchild. There would be no way to live with myself and the utter anguish I had caused.
When the parents showed up on TV, giving their spin, I thought they were wrong to blame the cruise ship, but I "knew" it was just transferred anger and grief. How could they blame the grandfather when he was so loving and close with Chloe, and it was such an unfortunate and dreadful accident? They'd be losing another loved one, in a way.
When I first heard that charges were filed against him, I thought that was brutal. He'd suffered enough.

Seeing this video has swept me away. He is clearly leaning as far out of the open window as he can, like at a 45° angle. Chloe is somewhere near him on the floor. I thought that even without what was about to follow, he leaned out for too long and wasn't watching Chloe. Everyone with children knows you can't take your eyes off a toddler for a second.
Then he withdraws from the CLEARLY OPEN window, bends down, hoists her up, and we see this little flash of pink and a hat and she is now OUTSIDE the window. And that's it.

What is the conduit between Chloe and the high, high above her, totally open window? Just her grandfather. Now I understand why charges were filed. She was in peril from the moment her little legs left the floor.
My father is also colorblind, but he knows what a window is, so he would not have even thought to insert his children, grandchildren, and eventually great-grandchildren OUT of a window 11 stories high. Or even on a ground floor.

I feel grief for the parents because they lost their child in such an avoidable way, but they should have stopped there. To twist this horror into the fault of anyone else has changed the story, along with the twisting of the truth.

Maybe the grandfather was in shock and truly couldn't recollect what he'd done. I know he can't process it, but with the video, it's time for the family to back down, help their son, and try to find a way to carry on.

 

[sl222]

I went to medical school in Puerto Rico. The history of how they came to be a US territory is not a pleasant one. They have US passports, but they have no voting rights, which is a quintessential American right. Also, their cultural values and family structures are more aligned with what I see when I visit India (ethnically Indian) than the USA. They may be US citizens, but it is a very different culture.

That's interesting and helpful! It also reminds me of something I wanted to add about the La Comay big yellow puppet thing and a lot of Spanish-speaking tv/humor/shows being at times more slapstick or over-the-top than a lot of us are used to. I notice a lot of Spanish-speaking shows are more geared toward all ages, which goes back to the culture being more child-centered. The little tots in the room wouldn't know what the man was talking about in that video necessarily, but they would have a "Big Bird" type of character to look at. Also oftentimes you'll see more of the tenderness / innocence factor in a lot of shows / humor. Thanks to my ex-hubby I noticed that.

I notice that the PR prosecutors are women. I'm glad about that in this case. They were asked on tv if they were offering a deal and they were a bit non-comittal about that. But that is what the news reports said.

And we noticed the firm tone from RCCL this past week when the footage came out - they sympathize with this great loss but they maintain the evidence proves their case. (Correct me if that was not RCCL making that statement.)

 

[they'll get you]

Chloe Wiegand Royal Caribbean Lawsuit | Negligence | Damages

Page 11
Other Cruise Lines’ Vessels
28. Other cruise lines comply with the same ASTM standards and/or similar standards in order to protect passengers generally, and children specifically, from injuries and/or deaths related to falls from windows. 29.
For instance, the glass panes on the pool deck aboard Carnival’s vessel(s) do not open at
all, as depicted below from the
Carnival Breeze

 

[al66pine]

Veracity of Allegation in Complaint?

Re claim below, that Chloe asked to be lifted up - can anyone see any visual indication of this on the 'leaked vids'? If so, I'd appreciate a link with timestamp/timecode. TiA.
"19. Consequently, when Chloe approached the wall of glass, Mr. Anello reasonably believed that this was a wall of fixed glass with no openings
20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."

 

[justice4allnow]

Chloe Wiegand Royal Caribbean Lawsuit | Negligence | Damages

Page 11
Other Cruise Lines’ Vessels
28. Other cruise lines comply with the same ASTM standards and/or similar standards in order to protect passengers generally, and children specifically, from injuries and/or deaths related to falls from windows. 29.
For instance, the glass panes on the pool deck aboard Carnival’s vessel(s) do not open at
all, as depicted below from the
Carnival Breeze

View attachment 221730

This wording doesn't worry me because Winkleman has lied, exaggerated and obfuscated so much already that I give no credence to his claims. I'm certain that there are explanations for all of his hysteric ramblings in the lawsuit.

 

[Safeguard]

When I first heard that charges were filed against him, I thought that was brutal. He'd suffered enough.

Seeing this video has swept me away. He is clearly leaning as far out of the open window as he can, like at a 45° angle. Chloe is somewhere near him on the floor. I thought that even without what was about to follow, he leaned out for too long and wasn't watching Chloe. Everyone with children knows you can't take your eyes off a toddler for a second.
Then he withdraws from the CLEARLY OPEN window, bends down, hoists her up, and we see this little flash of pink and a hat and she is now OUTSIDE the window. And that's it.

Great post snipped for brevity.
This is the same emotional trajectory I experienced. Almost exactly. I had the utmost sympathy for everyone, especially Sam. Perhaps Grandpa was tired, distracted by the surroundings and was uncustomarily careless on this tragic day. Surely he paid a great price for that...

Then the facts start to trickle in. Odd reports of SA "exposing" Chloe to the "Abyss" in "an act of games"... Hmmmm... Then he is seen rocking her, which I thought might have been a form of translating the word "cradling" at first.

As more is reveled, I notice I am constantly contorting my thoughts trying to remain charitable towards SA.

Not one, of the original news reports mentions SA believed that window was shut. In fact it seemed as though he stated he dropped her, he said nothing about this "disappearing" pane of glass.

Next we hear he is refusing to give an official statement. They lawyer up, and NOW SA had no idea the window was open or he never would have ever risked anyone's life like that!

Then we watch the US news reporters, talk about the discrepancies in the videos, they were allowed to view, and the real time ccv, and things are really starting to stink.

Finally we all get to see what happened to Chloe and it is absolutely STUNNING.

The kindest thing I can muster up now is they all might be temporarily insane.

It's difficult to find another avenue in which to sympathize, I can't twist my mind in any more pretzel(ish) ways to make sense of their behavior anymore. I am truly stumped why they are doing, whatever it is they are doing. So... Grief, shock, denial it is!