IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[Forever Young]

Interesting that you noticed that.^^^

It's peculiar that he was of a mind to take photos at all.

Yes some pointed out that as LE he'd be trained to take photos to preserve evidence.
And yet there's something odd about it.

One thing that is odd about it is that the photograph that is credited to the dad is labeled wrong as to which window is open. Not sure who labeled that, but from the reflections it is obvious that what is labeled as open is actually shut.

 

[Forever Young]

ITA. That IS crazy since the purpose of this gap is for safety.

Then, the very confusing part where SA says that he "knew" that Chloe could not reach the glass below, because he couldn't.....

IMO, you mean that you would have to stoop down beneath the railing to bang on the glass yourself, and this was difficult? So then decided to lift her up.

 

[justbreathe]

Absolutely! Even when a ship is in port, there is a noticeable breeze, especially on open upper decks. Also, there would have been sounds on the dock below, forklifts moving about, street noises near the port, etc. Standing in front of an open window one would also notice the smells of ocean air and the sea.

The majority of his senses failed him that day. His sense of touch, sight, sound, smell...

It is baffling. This complete failing of senses makes me strongly suspect some type of mind altering substance was used.

Because the WIND. From everything I could find the higher you are the stronger the wind feels, and being that high by the water there is always a breeze.

Was he so incapacitated he was unable to process this?

 

[justbreathe]

Somewhere, there is an interview cut in which Winkleman states that when SA viewed straight down from the railing at the gap, he could see the lower window glass, so this caused him to think that the glass went all the way up.

He said something to the fact that the placement of the railing actually made it harder to distinguish where the glass began and ended.

All the more reason to stay safely behind the safety rail, if you are unable to distinguish an open window from a closed window.

In fact - you should stay behind the safety rail even if you can tell an open window from a closed window.

I want to know why he thought that was ok.

 

[Forever Young]

The majority of his senses failed him that day. His sense of touch, sight, sound, smell...

It is baffling. This complete failing of senses makes me strongly suspect some type of mind altering substance was used.

Because the WIND. From everything I could find the higher you are the stronger the wind feels, and being that high by the water there is always a breeze.

Was he so incapacitated he was unable to process this?

Yeah, there is some kind of aerodynamics going on that when air is forced through a small opening, its much stronger than what you feel outside in the open air.

I have thought from the beginning that he was drunk and experienced a classic brain fart.

 

[mickey2942]

All the more reason to stay safely behind the safety rail, if you are unable to distinguish an open window from a closed window.

In fact - you should stay behind the safety rail even if you can tell an open window from a closed window.

I want to know why he thought that was ok.

Which brings up an interesting point, if SA goes to trial, should he testify, or just let the prosecution make their case against him?

I believe that the video evidence is very damaging for SA. The best play here for the defense is to request a change of venue, because the jury pool is tainted.

At least, it sets up for the appeal.

 

[Forever Young]

All the more reason to stay safely behind the safety rail, if you are unable to distinguish an open window from a closed window.

In fact - you should stay behind the safety rail even if you can tell an open window from a closed window.

I want to know why he thought that was ok.

Apparently he did not know he was color blind until afterward, otherwise would have taken extra precaution around windows.

 

[justbreathe]

Yeah, there is some kind of aerodynamics going on that when air is forced through a small opening, its much stronger than what you feel outside in the open air.

I have thought from the beginning that he was drunk and experienced a classic brain fart.

I strongly suspect this, also. The way he swings her into the window has the...feel? of someone who is drunk. So casual and, not aggressive just...quick, maybe more forceful than he realized? Because he was intoxicated?

 

[Pak31]

Here is the pic of the awning that ran alongside Freedom of the Seas (I couldn't find the link earlier).

View attachment 223619

Parents of Chloe Wiegand sue Royal Caribbean over her death | Daily Mail Online

Then, the very confusing part where SA says that he "knew" that Chloe could not reach the glass below, because he couldn't.....

IMO, you mean that you would have to stoop down beneath the railing to bang on the glass yourself, and this was difficult? So then decided to lift her up.

I’m confused as to why he thought there was glass below. Did he think there was a glass ledge outside the open, yes open, window sill? So all the other parts of the wall were flush and flat but he thought this was like a bay window? Also what I’ve had trouble with is when KW was interviewed she said she came over to see what happened. She looked down and saw concrete. She said she expected Chloe to have landed in the water. I don’t understand that statement. I’d be freaking out too much to even debate what side she landed on. Either way she’s not going to survive. What difference does it make what she landed on? For someone grieving the recent horrid death of her child it just seems odd to say. Or am I overreacting? Then in the interview so soon after she’s very angry at the ship. Saying things like get a fan. If my toddler died a couple weeks before that interview in such a horrific manner I wouldn’t be able to speak, eat, bathe, even get out of bed. It’s like her daughter died and immediately she’s on a rampage. MOO.

 

[mickey2942]

I strongly suspect this, also. The way he swings her into the window has the...feel? of someone who is drunk. So casual and, not aggressive just...quick, maybe more forceful than he realized? Because he was intoxicated?

Maybe. I treat my cell phone with more care than he demonstrated with Chloe. A baby!

 

[justbreathe]

Apparently he did not know he was color blind until afterward, otherwise would have taken extra precaution around windows.

Or - he could have just taken regular precautions as per cruise ship directives and stayed behind the safety rail? Nothing extra needed. Just a regular, ordinary following of rules.

 

[justbreathe]

Maybe. I treat my cell phone with more care than he demonstrated with Chloe. A baby!

It has the feel of the drunk friend stumbling towards you shouting I LOVE YOU MAN, and hugging you while elbowing you in the face and stepping on your foot with no self awareness at all.

 

[Forever Young]

I strongly suspect this, also. The way he swings her into the window has the...feel? of someone who is drunk. So casual and, not aggressive just...quick, maybe more forceful than he realized? Because he was intoxicated?

He is attracted to the window because it is "clear". He can feel the wind coming through it. He bends down beneath the railing with Chloe and sees the glass below. Voila! Suddenly there is glass in the middle row above the railing, too. And then it disappears just as quickly.

 

[Yellowbeak]

Somewhere, there is an interview cut in which Winkleman states that when SA viewed straight down from the railing at the gap, he could see the lower window glass, so this caused him to think that the glass went all the way up.

He said something to the fact that the placement of the railing actually made it harder to distinguish where the glass began and ended.

Sorry, that’s not accurate. (What he said, not you)
When you are standing at the rail you see the glass at the floor level to the mid level and then the window glass mid to top. If anything, he is digging himself deeper in a hole again because he is admitting seeing the glass which means seeing the distance it is from the rail. Also you would definitely be able to tell the difference between the open window and the solid pane directly below it. I was on a RC cruise 2 weeks ago and checked this out. I was on Harmony not Freedom. JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Apparently he did not know he was color blind until afterward, otherwise would have taken extra precaution around windows.

SA didn't know he was colorblind until "someone" told him that the condition might have been the reason why he didn't know that the window wasn't closed. I question whether or not the man actually has a colorblindness diagnosis.

I will turn 70 later this month. I've been seeing an ophthalmologist since I was 4 years old due to extreme myopia and a very lazy right eye. I wore "Coke-bottle" glasses until I was old enough (12) for contact lenses that I wore until I had cataract surgery at age 48. I continue to see my ophthalmologist at least twice a year. I took one of the colorblindness tests that was posted by a member here and learned that I actually have a minor colorblindness condition. You could have fooled me! Not once in the nearly 66 years that I've been seeing an ophthalmologist was I ever diagnosed with colorblindness, nor was there any mention of being tested for the condition.

I have doubts about the legitimacy of Winkleman's claims about SA's colorblindness. If his vision was that impaired by the condition, how was he able to drive? Most newer vehicles have tinted windshields, and someone who is colorblind would not be able to properly distinguish traffic signals, yet we know that SA drives because he's been ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt.

 

[Forever Young]

Sorry, that’s not accurate. (What he said, not you)
When you are standing at the rail you see the glass at the floor level to the mid level and then the window glass mid to top. If anything, he is digging himself deeper in a hole again because he is admitting seeing the glass which means seeing the distance it is from the rail. Also you would definitely be able to tell the difference between the open window and the solid pane directly below it. I was on a RC cruise 2 weeks ago and checked this out. I was on Harmony not Freedom. JMO

Yup. The photo where you can see the tent erected on the dock below (which is the same photo attached to the lawsuit) shows that.

 

[sl222]

He is attracted to the window because it is "clear". He can feel the wind coming through it. He bends down beneath the railing with Chloe and sees the glass below. Voila! Suddenly there is glass in the middle row above the railing, too. And then it disappears just as quickly.

And just before they went to the window, they were following a man who went to the window to look out of it. Chloe follows that man, then is stopped by SA, or else turned to talk to him, at the pillar/column. While they are still stopped there, that same man walks away from the window, crosses in front of them, and right then is when Chloe and SA resume heading for that same open window.

 

[Yellowbeak]

Yeah, there is some kind of aerodynamics going on that when air is forced through a small opening, its much stronger than what you feel outside in the open air.

I have thought from the beginning that he was drunk and experienced a classic brain fart.

Agreed. It really is suspicious that he refused a breathalyzer.

 

[sl222]

Question: If the police had taken SA into custody / arrested him immediately after what happened, could they have gotten permission from a judge to do drug tests and a breathalyzer on him?

But it looks like they gave him a huge break right then because he was hysterical and a grandfather.

"Mind-altering substance" as mentioned here does ring true. I've always thought alcohol but who knows. I wonder if the prosecutors really wish this had happened because it would have answered a lot of questions one way or another.

So many excellent posts in the last couple of days, just when I thought we'd already covered everything we could to this point.

 

[sl222]

This is just a guess, but I think there is a better, closer video, probably from the bar area.

Also if SA testifies in either the criminal trial or the civil trial, then the attorneys will be questioning him about his statements and the many changes in them. They will be able to point to the likelihood that he has lied already.