IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[IceIce9]

Winkleman is talking - see link above

“Had the Wiegand family just been on a different ship … Chloe would still be here,” Winkleman said at the time.

Had Chloe’s mom chosen a different adult to care for her........Chloe would still be here

 

[IceIce9]

Would Winkleman's actions be enough to get him disbarred? I personally think he deserves to be disbarred but I don't know what the legal standard is. At the very least, I hope his reputation is destroyed after everyone has discovered the truth.

No, lawyers defend criminals that they know are guilty all the time.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Cruise line says grandfather knew window was open before Granger girl fell to her death

..."It is clear that Royal Caribbean’s tactic is to blame Chloe’s grandfather rather than to accept that Royal Caribbean did not implement industry standards for toddler safety aboard its ships," Winkleman said in the statement Friday...

No other toddler has been lifted up and held outside an open window for 34 seconds before being dropped onto the concrete dock 11 stories below. There aren't industry standards for the reckless actions of a man who has no common sense.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I also can't get over the fact that SA is only 51 years old. That has to be a typo right. He looks like he's in his 70s or at LEAST in his 60s.

SA's age, 51, has been reported since the incident last July. Evidently, he's had a rough life or just doesn't take very good care of himself.

 

[weepingangel]

Dbm

 

[WiseGuy]

No other toddler has been lifted up and held outside an open window for 34 seconds before being dropped onto the concrete dock 11 stories below. There aren't industry standards for the reckless actions of a man who has no common sense.

Notice that Winkleman doesn't say "... CRUISE LINE industry standards." So "technically" he is deceptive but not lying. RCL truly did not implement "multi-unit apartment building" standards. More deceptive if not outright false statements from Winkleman, he is nothing if not consistent.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Grandfather who dropped girl to death was 'aware window was open'

Interesting, and definitely no question about who is at fault.

Is the entire world supposed to have "Safety" stickers posted every where?

"Don't Dangle Children Outside of Window". With a picture of a small child, being held outside a window and a large red slash?

 

[WiseGuy]

The Wiegands’ attorney Michael Winkleman issued this statement:
clipped for brevity.
there were no less than THIRTEEN CCTV video cameras in the area of the incident. The Wiegands will ask the Court to compel Royal Caribbean to produce all the video from those nearby cameras.

13 cameras will give a lot of clarity - he’s gonna regret this request IMO and also the video when shown using the proprietary software will be very clear
JMO

What additional info would we possible gain from 11 other cameras? Could any of them possibly be closer or clearer than the ones we did see? Only advantageous camera position we haven't seen would be from outside the ship. I can't imagine that any additional cameras would prove that what the 2 we have seen, do not actually shows us what we think they show us. IMO, Winkleman has reached the bottom of his bag of tricks and has nothing else to throw at RCL.

 

[oviedo]

What additional info would we possible gain from 11 other cameras? Could any of them possibly be closer or clearer than the ones we did see? Only advantageous camera position we haven't seen would be from outside the ship. I can't imagine that any additional cameras would prove that what the 2 we have seen, do not actually shows us what we think they show us. IMO, Winkleman has reached the bottom of his bag of tricks and has nothing else to throw at RCL.

Yes I’m thinking this is a strategy- that RCL cherry picked the video to how him in the worst light but he does not address him leaning his body out and through the open window - clearly he isn’t backing down so I hope RCL produces all the video and it shows even more wrongdoing by him
JMO

 

[Forever Young]

Winkleman is talking - see link above

Yes, he responded very quickly to that, didn't he? Did anyone else catch where he said that there were no less than 13 cameras in that area that were found during their inspection?

ETA: how about the one from behind the bar?

 

[whoopiecushions]

No, lawyers defend criminals that they know are guilty all the time.

But Winkelman isn't a defense attorney in a criminal case. He doesn't represent the defendant (RC). He's representing the plaintiff in a lawsuit. And he's saying things that are factually untrue. Things that make the defendant look bad.

I'm not saying that his actions are definitely grounds for being disbarred, but I don't think that example is a good comparison. Defending an accused party is different from representing a plaintiff who is going after a defendant.

 

[jeena]

Cruise line says grandfather knew window was open before Granger girl fell to her death

Snipped


But in its motion, the cruise line argues it has no duty to protect against unforeseeable incidents.

"His actions, which no reasonable person could have foreseen, were reckless and irresponsible and the sole reason why Chloe is no longer with her parents," the document says.

In a statement to the Indianapolis Star, Winkleman said Royal Caribbean's motion was "baseless and deceptive."

"It is clear that Royal Caribbean’s tactic is to blame Chloe’s grandfather rather than to accept that Royal Caribbean did not implement industry standards for toddler safety aboard its ships," Winkleman said in the statement Friday.

Do most other ships have industry standard fall prevention window guards, screens, and a device to open the windows four inches for toddler safety?

Was the FOS going to implement the industry standard toddler safety features during the 2020 refurbishment?

Is it less safe to cruise on a ship due to be refurbished?

I'm just curious about these questions, I don't blame RCCL for CW's death, SA was crazy to do what he did, imo. Even if all the safety features were done, she could have fallen off the railing while standing and been hurt or killed.

 

[Forever Young]

I also can't get over the fact that SA is only 51 years old. That has to be a typo right. He looks like he's in his 70s or at LEAST in his 60s.

This comment is one that is made often, I can only assume by younger folks?

IMO, he looks like many men that I know in their 50s. If he lives to be in his 60s or 70s, most likely he will be thinner. That middle aged spread is very typical for men and women who have just reached 50. He has very little lines or sagging on his face.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Now that the Weigands have responded to the Motion for Dismissal, is everyone still confident that RCCL will prevail?

 

[whoopiecushions]

SA's age, 51, has been reported since the incident last July. Evidently, he's had a rough life or just doesn't take very good care of himself.

Yes, rationally my brain knows that this is true. It's been reported consistently so there's no way it's a typo. He's definitely 51. But the other part of me can't help but think, "There's NO way he's only 51." He's young enough to be my big brother but he easily looks old enough to pass as my dad. I have friends his age who look much younger. My cousin is close to his age and he also looks MUCH younger than SA. My husband is a few years older than he is and also looks much younger.

 

[Forever Young]

But Winkelman isn't a defense attorney in a criminal case. He doesn't represent the defendant (RC). He's representing the plaintiff in a lawsuit. And he's saying things that are factually untrue. Things that make the defendant look bad.

I'm not saying that his actions are definitely grounds for being disbarred, but I don't think that example is a good comparison. Defending an accused party is different from representing a plaintiff who is going after a defendant.

IMO, it is not his job to investigate, or determine whether what they are saying is the truth. He is paid to stand in their shoes, and articulate what they are saying, and to navigate their case through the courts. It is the judge or jury who determines if what they say is true.

When I was reading on the "Motion to Dismiss" yesterday, I came across the statement that the court assumes that what the plaintiff says is true at this point. I.E. a "Motion to Dismiss" is common procedure, but not easy to pull off.

 

[Forever Young]

In the Estsy liked list, along with the baby items and jewelry, there were photos of what looked looked framed maps of the Caribbean.

Good lord. I hope this isn't some prank that someone else is pulling in KW's name.

 

[WiseGuy]

Now that the Weigands have responded to the Motion for Dismissal, is everyone still confident that RCCL will prevail?

To me, it depends on what exactly RCL needs to prove. Do they need to prove what SA was actually thinking? If so that's a high hurdle. Do they only need to prove that the "reasonably prudent person" would never have done what SA did? I don't know how you prove what a normal person would do - I kind of know instinctively, but is there a written method that lawyers would use to establish what a normal person thinks?

 

[WiseGuy]

dbm

 

[Cryptic]

Would Winkleman's actions be enough to get him disbarred? I personally think he deserves to be disbarred but I don't know what the legal standard is. At the very least, I hope his reputation is destroyed after everyone has discovered the truth.

As the other poster mentioned, presenting improbable alternative theories in the course of defending a client is no grounds for any kind of discipline, let alone disbarment.

As for the legal standard, I have general understanding that an attorney cannot present any information that he or she knows for a fact to be false. I have an impression though that "for a fact" is applied very literally.

This means that defense attorneys are free to present very improbable information as well as information that they have a lot of private reservations about. They may well also have broad abilities to well, "actively inquire" about the circumstances of an incident to explore possible defenses.

For example, factually inform a man accused of assault that it is a serious charge. Then factually inform him that provocation can be a mitigating circumstance. Followed with: "Did anyone at the bar insult or provoke you?" or "How confrontational were they when they saw your T-shirt?" (cough, cough).