IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #6

[Forever Young]

In the Estsy liked list, along with the baby items and jewelry, there were photos of what looked looked framed maps of the Caribbean.

Good lord. I hope this isn't some prank that someone else is pulling in KW's name.

Just this morning, DH and I had manicures/pedicures. DH was 71 last October, and I will turn 70 in 10 days. Both of our techs remarked that we are "very young" 70-year-olds

I have 3 younger brothers, two of which are in their 50s. I don't know what happens, but the weight gain and eyesight going south does happen right around then. And it happens relatively quickly. Photos also tend to make everyone look worse than what they think they look like when they look in the mirror, myself included, IMO. I'll be 65 in 3 weeks.

 

[whoopiecushions]

Notice that Winkleman doesn't say "... CRUISE LINE industry standards." So "technically" he is deceptive but not lying. RCL truly did not implement "multi-unit apartment building" standards. More deceptive if not outright false statements from Winkleman, he is nothing if not consistent.

Good catch. He's evil and greedy but obviously very slick and intelligent too. He knows exactly how to skirt the law. I wish he could be disbarred but I'm sure it's an unrealistic fantasy.

 

[IceIce9]

SA's age, 51, has been reported since the incident last July. Evidently, he's had a rough life or just doesn't take very good care of himself.

IMO he has some facial features and a build that could indicate an alcoholic.

Please note that I am not saying SA is an alcoholic, but his appearance has features that often indicate a long history with alcohol.

 

[neesaki]

This comment is one that is made often, I can only assume by younger folks?

IMO, he looks like many men that I know in their 50s. If he lives to be in his 60s or 70s, most likely he will be thinner. That middle aged spread is very typical for men and women who have just reached 50. He has very little lines or sagging on his face.

In the photos I’ve seen, when he smiles I don’t see any teeth,he looks toothless ( I don’t think he is, just don’t see teeth)... I think that’s one factor that makes him look older than his age. Jmo

 

[IceIce9]

If Michael Jackson would have dropped his baby when dangling over the balcony back in 2002, would all balconies be required to have mesh covering them?

 

[Forever Young]

In the photos I’ve seen, when he smiles I don’t see any teeth,he looks toothless ( I don’t think he is, just don’t see teeth)... I think that’s one factor that makes him look older than his age. Jmo

Gray hair and hair loss, weight gain, thick glasses.....I honestly don't think he looks that bad for 51.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

But Winkelman isn't a defense attorney in a criminal case. He doesn't represent the defendant (RC). He's representing the plaintiff in a lawsuit. And he's saying things that are factually untrue. Things that make the defendant look bad.

I'm not saying that his actions are definitely grounds for being disbarred, but I don't think that example is a good comparison. Defending an accused party is different from representing a plaintiff who is going after a defendant.

Yes, I have some serious issues with what Winkleman is doing since Winkleman has expressly said he doesn't represent SA, yet he's doing things to SA that impact SA's criminal case.

 

[justice4allnow]

SA's age, 51, has been reported since the incident last July. Evidently, he's had a rough life or just doesn't take very good care of himself.

And only 50 years old when the tragedy occurred.

 

[justice4allnow]

Now that the Weigands have responded to the Motion for Dismissal, is everyone still confident that RCCL will prevail?

Yes, I'm certain that RCCL will prevail. Winkleman has put his particular spin on events, of course. But the truth will out!

 

[justice4allnow]

Do most other ships have industry standard fall prevention window guards, screens, and a device to open the windows four inches for toddler safety?

Was the FOS going to implement the industry standard toddler safety features during the 2020 refurbishment?

Is it less safe to cruise on a ship due to be refurbished?

I'm just curious about these questions, I don't blame RCCL for CW's death, SA was crazy to do what he did, imo. Even if all the safety features were done, she could have fallen off the railing while standing and been hurt or killed.

He is quoting industry standards for buildings, not cruise ships!

 

[al66pine]

Winkleman: "Deceptive" Vid Views? 13 Surv Cams?

[RCL] "... supplying two deceptive views from its CCTV cameras to the court and the Puerto Rico authorities. ... That inspection has revealed that Royal Caribbean’s Motion to Dismiss neglects to tell the Court and, presumably, the authorities that there were no less than THIRTEEN CCTV video cameras in the area of the incident..."
13 cameras will give a lot of clarity - he’s gonna regret this request IMO and also the video when shown using the proprietary software will be very clear. JMO

@oviedo bbm sbm. Agree w you ^.
The only deceptive aspect of two vid views is likely their failure to support W's fairy tale theory. jmo

13 surv cams were in the area. So? And Winkleman insinuates that RCL was obligated to advise him of the existence of these cams and to produce vids to him before now and insinuates RCL is delinquent in having failed to do so? For Crying Out Loud. Discovery has not yet begun, in fact the court has not even ruled on RCL's Mo/Dismiss; and W rushes to media to bark about RCL's purported neglect, failure to disclose, and deception?

And another FCOL: W states RCL neglected to tell court and "presumably the authorities" of other surv cams? What would W's basis for this ^ presumption be? IDK. Judging from MSM-published pix on night of poor Chloe's death, numerous PR LE personnel were at the scene. And imo pretty sure PR LE can subpoenas to get info, vids, etc. they want to examine.

Hoping, perhaps in vain, Winkleman will quit his circus barking and focus on evd, pleadings, motions, hearings in court, preferably w cases having more merit than this one.

 

[Erik_Emune]

To me, it depends on what exactly RCL needs to prove. Do they need to prove what SA was actually thinking? If so that's a high hurdle. Do they only need to prove that the "reasonably prudent person" would never have done what SA did? I don't know how you prove what a normal person would do - I kind of know instinctively, but is there a written method that lawyers would use to establish what a normal person thinks?

If the case law they cite holds, the standard in maritime law is "reasonable person", and that is of course a tough nut to crack. On the toher hand, maritime law is written by and for those who go to sea, and there's an assumption of some sort of competence.

Much ink has been spent defining the reasonable person. I've seen him described as someone who "exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct that society requires of its members for the protection of their own and of others' interests". (The old Romans used "bonus pater familias", a "good family father".)

One can't but feel that average care, skill and judgment would suffice to identify an open window and act accordingly, though.

The plaintiff's lawyer seems to be hammering the table right now. 2 videos that put your client in a bad light? Time to argue that there were actually 13 cameras and that no judgment can be made until we've seen them all. Point to building codes for multi-family residences. Point to other ships. The facts aren't in favor, the law isn't in favor, so it's time to throw unrelated data out there and hope to get the narrative on another track.

 

[al66pine]

Wiegands'/Winkleman's Response?

Now that the Weigands have responded to the Motion for Dismissal, is everyone still confident that RCCL will prevail?

. @BetteDavisEyes Yes, Winkleman responded, but AFAIK, not thru a document filed in court, just issued a "statement" to media. I could be wrong.
Hoping poster(s) here w better access to the court doc's will post a link as soon as W files.

 

[whoopiecushions]

This comment is one that is made often, I can only assume by younger folks?

I actually thought it was the opposite. It's the younger folks who don't think he looks old for his age because they think 51 is ancient. Whereas to me, 51 isn't "old" so I would expect someone his age to look considerably younger than he does. My husband is older than SA but looks younger than he does. SA looks older than most of the 50 somethings that I know. I've also seen a lot of comments on social media theorizing that his being "elderly" or possibly suffering from dementia may have contributed to his acts. So I don't think I'm alone in thinking that he looks older than his age.

 

[Forever Young]

Yes, I have some serious issues with what Winkleman is doing since Winkleman has expressly said he doesn't represent SA, yet he's doing things to SA that impact SA's criminal case.

Winkleman is representing "the family" of which it could be said that SA is a part of. I do agree about impacting SA's criminal case - such as when he said "obviously to get a better view." But, it does appear that Winkleman has been given leave to speak for SA, also, at times.

 

[Lilibet]

I actually thought it was the opposite. It's the younger folks who don't think he looks old for his age because they think 51 is ancient. Whereas to me, 51 isn't "old" so I would expect someone his age to look considerably younger than he does. My husband is older than SA but looks younger than he does. SA looks older than most of the 50 somethings that I know. I've also seen a lot of comments on social media theorizing that his being "elderly" or possibly suffering from dementia may have contributed to his acts. So I don't think I'm alone in thinking that he looks older than his age.

You’re not alone in thinking he looks older than 50/51. My 75 year old husband looks younger and our 49 year old daughter looks nowhere near that old. Of course, people age differently, but I placed him closer to 60+ initially.

 

[they'll get you]

If the case law they cite holds, the standard in maritime law is "reasonable person", and that is of course a tough nut to crack. On the toher hand, maritime law is written by and for those who go to sea, and there's an assumption of some sort of competence.

Much ink has been spent defining the reasonable person. I've seen him described as someone who "exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct that society requires of its members for the protection of their own and of others' interests". (The old Romans used "bonus pater familias", a "good family father".)

One can't but feel that average care, skill and judgment would suffice to identify an open window and act accordingly, though.

The plaintiff's lawyer seems to be hammering the table right now. 2 videos that put your client in a bad light? Time to argue that there were actually 13 cameras and that no judgment can be made until we've seen them all. Point to building codes for multi-family residences. Point to other ships. The facts aren't in favor, the law isn't in favor, so it's time to throw unrelated data out there and hope to get the narrative on another track.

I don’t see this fool suing for no warning signage. He admits he didn’t think it though and still suffering the effects of the night before.

 

[whoopiecushions]

Winkleman: "Deceptive" Vid Views? 13 Surv Cams?
@oviedo
Winkleman insinuates that RCL was obligated to advise him of the existence of these cams and to produce vids to him before now and insinuates RCL is delinquent in having failed to do so? For Crying Out Loud. Discovery has not yet begun, in fact the court has not even ruled on RCL's Mo/Dismiss; and W rushes to media to bark about RCL's purported neglect, failure to disclose, and deception?

Ahh but the general public doesn't understand this. They don't know what discovery is. They don't know how court works and that's what exactly what he's banking on. He's going on a PR blitz to play on laypeople's emotions. Then these laypeople could be selected for a jury...

 

[jeena]

He is quoting industry standards for buildings, not cruise ships!

I missed the prior post regarding Winks being deceitful about this, but not lying, before I posted my questions. Sorry! I get it, thanks for repeating it.

 

[whoopiecushions]

Oops double post