IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[al66pine]

deleting a duplicate.

 

[al66pine]

Was Squirm Factor an Unknown to SA?

I have looked at the wooden banister where grandpa said he placed CA on.
1). IF that is what happened, I can see it being an accident. Maybe she was squirmy and when "she reached forward to bang on the glass" and the glass wasn't there, I can see how she may have tumbled out. Grandpa may not have thought or known CA would do this....

@Razz sbm Respectfully disagreeing about SA not knowing. SA held an 18 m/o capable of squirming, wriggling, turning, shifting, fidgeting, twisting, and more. Did he lose his grip after she moved, or due to another cause, such as a sudden wrist muscle spasm, slippery sunscreen, carpal tunnel syndrome? Does not matter, imo. While not saying it was intentional on his part, losing grip was foreseeable on his part. How could SA say he was unaware of Chloe's ability to squirm/wiggle/twist, despite photos of SA holding her in various positions? *

If SA had hauled up a sack of potatoes onto rail, that bag could have rested unharmed there for hours, draped motionless over the rail, not dropping 100+ feet to dock. But SA seemed oblivious to having picked up an 18 m/o toddler capable of movement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Photos: SA held Chloe on his lap, while she wore head/earphones,alongside Grandmother at sports arena, and at his waist/chest level, next to big (Charlie Brown-like) head w helmet. He kneeled/squatted/crouched next to her standing in her Frozen blue dress w blue net skirt and was close to ground level w her at Easter egg hunt.

 

[al66pine]

RCL Cruisers: Experiments/Photos Please?
"Their own data suggests this was ‘physically impossible’ due to a gap between a handrail and the window which would have required the grandfather to be seven inches off the ground to do so".*bbm See pic at expresinformer.com Jan 28, Parents of toddler dropped to her death from Royal Caribbean ship beg Puerto Rico to end case | EXPRESS INFORMER

How difficult is it for an adult to stand w toes (and maybe balls of feet) balancing on the edge formed by the lower frame of bottom window? I can see ledge is angled, but cannot tell how much.
If standing like that is doable, seems that would extend arms' reach a bit. Maybe 7 inches? Thx in adv.

 

[SouthAussie]

As far as RCCL's disclosure statements about no standing on the rails etc, I'm afraid I've never read them.

RSBM

Here is the relevant part of the Guest Conduct Policy that is supplied to the passengers.
It is part of Royal Caribbean's ticket contract.

Unsafe Behavior (underlined by me)
Sitting, standing, lying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers, or tampering with ship’s equipment, facilities or systems designed for guest safety is not permitted. Guests may not enter or access any area that is restricted and for the use of crew members. Any other unsafe behavior, including failure to follow security instructions, is not permitted.
https://www.royalcaribbean.com/content/dam/royal/resources/pdf/guest-conduct-policy.pdf

 

[Midwestmom2019]

RCL Cruisers: Experiments/Photos Please?
"Their own data suggests this was ‘physically impossible’ due to a gap between a handrail and the window which would have required the grandfather to be seven inches off the ground to do so".*bbm See pic at expresinformer.com Jan 28, Parents of toddler dropped to her death from Royal Caribbean ship beg Puerto Rico to end case | EXPRESS INFORMER

How difficult is it for an adult to stand w toes (and maybe balls of feet) balancing on the edge formed by the lower frame of bottom window? I can see ledge is angled, but cannot tell how much.
If standing like that is doable, seems that would extend arms' reach a bit. Maybe 7 inches? Thx in adv.

Way back, I commented that their tape measure was not only not close to the feet, but also angled and not vertically straight. If you add the start of the tape measure 2-3 inches away from the guy’s feet and the angle difference, it’s just about 7 inches. Never mind the fact that one of the team was measuring the distance between guard rail and window. He didn’t even have to straighten out his arm completely to take the measurement.
No, MW and his short law partner, were playing with optical illusions. The guy looks to be about 5 feet tall. Look at his body shape. Pudgy. Squat. Like a pear. Most men are not built that way. Look at MW and the guy measuring. Tall, straight body mass. I’m not talking a gut from years of bad eating and drinking, but a normal, proportioned man. Cut the gut off SA and he’s a normal proportion. Average American male is 5 ft 10 inches. Think SA taller than that. Anyway, MW team has a tough row to hoe. Better stick to corona virus claims from the cruise ship docked in port in Japan. He’d do better there.

 

[LietKynes]

seriously ?
Tech issues again.

 

[LietKynes]

Was Squirm Factor an Unknown to SA?
@Razz sbm Respectfully disagreeing about SA not knowing. SA held an 18 m/o capable of squirming, wriggling, turning, shifting, fidgeting, twisting, and more. Did he lose his grip after she moved, or due to another cause, such as a sudden wrist muscle spasm, slippery sunscreen, carpal tunnel syndrome? Does not matter, imo. While not saying it was intentional on his part, losing grip was foreseeable on his part. How could SA say he was unaware of Chloe's ability to squirm/wiggle/twist, despite photos of SA holding her in various positions? *

If SA had hauled up a sack of potatoes onto rail, that bag could have rested unharmed there for hours, draped motionless over the rail, not dropping 100+ feet to dock. But SA seemed oblivious to having picked up an 18 m/o toddler capable of movement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Photos: SA held Chloe on his lap, while she wore head/earphones,alongside Grandmother at sports arena, and at his waist/chest level, next to big (Charlie Brown-like) head w helmet. He kneeled/squatted/crouched next to her standing in her Frozen blue dress w blue net skirt and was close to ground level w her at Easter egg hunt.

Ita.
Re. the lavender bolded : Oblivious, or something else was going on.
Difficult to prove but not hard to see via the video footage.

Imo, SA knew what he was doing , and had a very purposeful manner in his actions !
Poor Chloe.

Way back, I commented that their tape measure was not only not close to the feet, but also angled and not vertically straight. If you add the start of the tape measure 2-3 inches away from the guy’s feet and the angle difference, it’s just about 7 inches. Never mind the fact that one of the team was measuring the distance between guard rail and window. He didn’t even have to straighten out his arm completely to take the measurement.
No, MW and his short law partner, were playing with optical illusions. The guy looks to be about 5 feet tall. Look at his body shape. Pudgy. Squat. Like a pear. Most men are not built that way. Look at MW and the guy measuring. Tall, straight body mass. I’m not talking a gut from years of bad eating and drinking, but a normal, proportioned man. Cut the gut off SA and he’s a normal proportion. Average American male is 5 ft 10 inches. Think SA taller than that. Anyway, MW team has a tough row to hoe. Better stick to corona virus claims from the cruise ship docked in port in Japan. He’d do better there.

Thank you for pointing that out.

MW thinks his lies and (bleep) don't stink.
And I like the idea of MW taking on the Corona Virus claims. Much more to work with.
Looks like his easy pay day might not come to fruition ?

 

[neesaki]

It seems to me that he was probably drunk and made a gross error. He seemed very laid back about watching a child that little. Prior to the window you can see him trailing behind her as she runs through the room. That's just risky in general for a child that age. Especially in a crowded room in a strange location. So he was one of those kind of caregivers that don't really watch their child. Seems like the mom and dad are probably the same type or they'd never let him watch her.

I think they probably have a history of being those types of parents who let their kids run wild in restaurants and don't enforce manners and there probably have been previous incidents where someone commented on their lack of parenting skills. Or perhaps the child fell and got hurt in a simple way. And they can't handle the guilt of this and being wrong in the manner they watched her. That's where the vitriol of "they were wrong" is coming from.

Very insightful post, IMO, and, I agree. Also, Thank you very much for your contribution to the thread, Chewy. Please don’t be a stranger. Looking forward to more of your input.

 

[LietKynes]

dbm

 

[Razz]

RSBM

Here is the relevant part of the Guest Conduct Policy that is supplied to the passengers.
It is part of Royal Caribbean's ticket contract.

Unsafe Behavior (underlined by me)
Sitting, standing, lying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers, or tampering with ship’s equipment, facilities or systems designed for guest safety is not permitted. Guests may not enter or access any area that is restricted and for the use of crew members. Any other unsafe behavior, including failure to follow security instructions, is not permitted.
https://www.royalcaribbean.com/content/dam/royal/resources/pdf/guest-conduct-policy.pdf

Thank you for this. I have sailed on RCCL approx 5 times and once on this particular boat. If I was given this, I didn't read it. But all those rules are common sense.

I can't imagine a family of 6? with 2 kids having time or the inclination to read this. The only thing everyone was absolutely forced to do by the cruise line was to go to a certain area in case of emergency and how to put on your safety vest.

Ok. I'm a bad person. But a realistic one.

Viewing the pictures in the above article, and the reconstruction of the accident, how did SA lean far enough over the hand rail to dangle Chole outside. Or to put his head out the window? The rail would have stopped him from being able to do that. And he had a big gut. And he has steadfastly said he put her on the wooden rail. And the videos of the incident aren't really clear. (Or not clear enough to charge this man with homocide imo). It would be great to see the additional video from all angles.

Had he taken the breathalyser, and if it showed he had alcohol in his system, he would have a better arguement against RCCL. Booze is how the cruiselines make money and it flows like crazy. Ever tried to get a Diet coke from the bar?

IMO, I think and I hope he is telling the truth. I will read the additional documents on this. But entering this thread with an unjaded eye and no preconceived ideas, I think he is telling the truth. According to the article above, his story hasn't changed since the accident happened.

I am sorry that I have disrupted the prevailing narrative that this may have been a planned homocide. But that is serious reaching and totally unbelievable.

 

[neesaki]

1. Thank you for this. I have sailed on RCCL approx 5 times and once on this particular boat. If I was given this, I didn't read it. But all those rules are common sense.
   
   I can't imagine a family of 6? with 2 kids having time or the inclination to read this. The only thing everyone was absolutely forced to do by the cruise line was to go to a certain area in case of emergency and how to put on your safety vest.
   
   Ok. I'm a bad person. But a realistic one.
   
   Viewing the pictures in the above article, and the reconstruction of the accident, how did SA lean far enough over the hand rail to dangle Chole outside. Or to put his head out the window? The rail would have stopped him from being able to do that. And he had a big gut. And he has steadfastly said he put her on the wooden rail. And the videos of the incident aren't really clear. (Or not clear enough to charge this man with homocide imo). It would be great to see the additional video from all angles.
   
   Had he taken the breathalyser, and if it showed he had alcohol in his system, he would have a better arguement against RCCL. Booze is how the cruiselines make money and it flows like crazy. Ever tried to get a Diet coke from the bar?
   
   IMO, I think and I hope he is telling the truth. I will read the additional documents on this. But entering this thread with an unjaded eye and no preconceived ideas, I think he is telling the truth. According to the article above, his story hasn't changed since the accident happened.
   
   I am sorry that I have disrupted the prevailing narrative that this may have been a planned homocide. But that is serious reaching and totally unbelievable.

   Wow. What can I say? Except that.... you did not really watch the video? Seriously.... It’s clear as day. No more words.
   

 

[justice4allnow]

Viewing the pictures in the above article, and the reconstruction of the accident, how did SA lean far enough over the hand rail to dangle Chole outside. Or to put his head out the window? The rail would have stopped him from being able to do that.

Razz, because you've recently joined a conversation that's been going on for months, you've missed a lot of the basics. There are photos in our past threads of people putting their hands and heads outside of the windows, seemingly without straining.
There are interviews where Sam has contradicted himself and contradicted Winkleman as to what exactly happened. There is a video with CBS's David Begnaud where Begnaud tells Sam that he has seen the video of the incident and believes that jurors seeing Sam lifting Chloe over the railing and past the railing may find it reckless. Sam refused alcohol testing, and Chloe's parents advised him not to test. A lot of what has happened seems shady.

 

[LietKynes]

dbm

 

[JulieBEMT]

RCL Cruisers: Experiments/Photos Please?
"Their own data suggests this was ‘physically impossible’ due to a gap between a handrail and the window which would have required the grandfather to be seven inches off the ground to do so".*bbm See pic at expresinformer.com Jan 28, Parents of toddler dropped to her death from Royal Caribbean ship beg Puerto Rico to end case | EXPRESS INFORMER

How difficult is it for an adult to stand w toes (and maybe balls of feet) balancing on the edge formed by the lower frame of bottom window? I can see ledge is angled, but cannot tell how much.
If standing like that is doable, seems that would extend arms' reach a bit. Maybe 7 inches? Thx in adv.

I will be on Adventure of the Seas on 2/29 and will be sure to post pictures of me, or another member of my group by the railing leaning out. (Adventure has the exact same design as Freedom in that area.) Stay tuned.

 

[SouthAussie]

Thank you for this. I have sailed on RCCL approx 5 times and once on this particular boat. If I was given this, I didn't read it. But all those rules are common sense.

I can't imagine a family of 6? with 2 kids having time or the inclination to read this. The only thing everyone was absolutely forced to do by the cruise line was to go to a certain area in case of emergency and how to put on your safety vest.

Ok. I'm a bad person. But a realistic one.

Viewing the pictures in the above article, and the reconstruction of the accident, how did SA lean far enough over the hand rail to dangle Chole outside. Or to put his head out the window? The rail would have stopped him from being able to do that. And he had a big gut. And he has steadfastly said he put her on the wooden rail. And the videos of the incident aren't really clear. (Or not clear enough to charge this man with homocide imo). It would be great to see the additional video from all angles.

Had he taken the breathalyser, and if it showed he had alcohol in his system, he would have a better arguement against RCCL. Booze is how the cruiselines make money and it flows like crazy. Ever tried to get a Diet coke from the bar?

IMO, I think and I hope he is telling the truth. I will read the additional documents on this. But entering this thread with an unjaded eye and no preconceived ideas, I think he is telling the truth. According to the article above, his story hasn't changed since the accident happened.

I am sorry that I have disrupted the prevailing narrative that this may have been a planned homocide. But that is serious reaching and totally unbelievable.

SA may or may not have read the Guest Conduct Policy, but as it is part of the ticket contract it is his responsibility as a passenger to understand the ticket contract he - as a ticketed passenger - had agreed to. Therefore, having read it or not read it, I believe he was still under contract to abide by the policies while on the Royal Caribbean cruise line.

Of course, these policies are there for good reason. Not only to moderate unsafe behaviour, but to give Royal Caribbean some legal recourse (like ejection from the ship) should a passenger breach the policies.

This is where I feel any argument that SA gives about his reasons for setting Chloe on/over the safety rail will fail in a legal setting.


(Just for the record, not all of us feel that this was a planned homicide. Some of us think that this man acted completely recklessly and with no thought about the possible disastrous consequences of his foolish actions. Negligent homicide.)

 

[Chewy]

I'm sorry but I disagree with the drunk statement. There were many people immediately after the accident, the doctor for one. If he was drunk, I am certain that the doctor or at least someone close to SA would smell alcohol. He was also taken to a room following his collapse on the floor, yet no one has ever commented on he had alcohol on his breath. I know for a fact that you can smell alcohol before you are ever tested and proved drunk.

MOO

I don't mean falling down drunk. I just mean intoxicated. And btw the idea that you are stating it's a fact that you can smell alcohol that way is nonsense. I deal with drunks all the time and that's not always the case.

I also know that people who change their drinking habits can sometimes be blindsided at how buzzed they get. A friend of mine recently had this happen. He went out with two friends he's known for 30 years and they had 3 pints of beer and the friends said to him "Wow, are you drunk? I've never seen you slur your words before." And he was taken aback and embarrassed. He's a regular drinker but had slowed down for a month and his tolerance dropped.

I've also seen this kind of thing happen with three girlfriends who all went on a weekend trip to Atlantic City. In the casino they give out free drinks and so they were day drinking which they weren't used to. One of my friends blew through all her money (which is why I think they give out free alcohol) and the other one went back to the room and passed out. Normally they drink a lot when they go out at night but this was just two glasses of white wine and they seemed bombed because they were not used to day drinking.

If you look into this case the grandfather was never tested for intoxication. He didn't need to be plastered to do this. He just needed to be "off his game." In other words lowered inhibitions. No reasonable adult would risk putting a child that age up on a banner by the window and I just don't believe he didn't realize it was open. To me it seems like the most logical solution. He had a drink that threw him off because he wasn't used to day drinking.

 

[loveandhugs]

I'm sorry but I disagree with the drunk statement. There were many people immediately after the accident, the doctor for one. If he was drunk, I am certain that the doctor or at least someone close to SA would smell alcohol. He was also taken to a room following his collapse on the floor, yet no one has ever commented on he had alcohol on his breath. I know for a fact that you can smell alcohol before you are ever tested and proved drunk.

MOO

Yes! Thank you for this post. There are people that keep making excuses for SA. No matter how someone wants to spin it, SA was responsible for Chloe’s death, it was not an accident. This is my opinion.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

It seems the elephant in the room is KW/AW. Particularly feisty KW. The whole family doubles down to protect SA. But it’s dual purpose seems to be also protecting the parents; Because they can possibly face charges too since they authorized SA to care for CW and are ultimately culpable for vetting him as babysitter along with his detrimental choice. Got to skip the breathalyzer!!! So they are 1000% invested that the dominoes only fall against RCCL. Saving their own behinds!!! Oh yeah and to “send a message” (sarcasm) & last but most of all the bonanza of $$ imo

Grandpa was likely the worst possible choice of caregiver among the adults in the family travel group. Makes me wonder where the other grandparents and/or AW were at the time when KW allegedly needed to run an errand. SA's nonchalant attitude in looking after Chloe might have been a negative reaction to having been asked to "babysit" while the other adults were doing what they wanted.

 

[JulieBEMT]

Grandpa was likely the worst possible choice of caregiver among the adults in the family travel group. Makes me wonder where the other grandparents and/or AW were at the time when KW allegedly needed to run an errand. SA's nonchalant attitude in looking after Chloe might have been a negative reaction to having been asked to "babysit" while the other adults were doing what they wanted.

Despite the gravity of this case, this line gave me a laugh. I sure hope he was the worst choice! Otherwise CW would have been killed in 5 - 10 minutes instead of 15.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Despite the gravity of this case, this line gave me a laugh. I sure hope he was the worst choice! Otherwise CW would have been killed in 5 - 10 minutes instead of 15.

A complete stranger would probably have been a better choice.