IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[Chewy]

It seems to me that he was probably drunk and made a gross error. He seemed very laid back about watching a child that little. Prior to the window you can see him trailing behind her as she runs through the room. That's just risky in general for a child that age. Especially in a crowded room in a strange location. So he was one of those kind of caregivers that don't really watch their child. Seems like the mom and dad are probably the same type or they'd never let him watch her.

I think they probably have a history of being those types of parents who let their kids run wild in restaurants and don't enforce manners and there probably have been previous incidents where someone commented on their lack of parenting skills. Or perhaps the child fell and got hurt in a simple way. And they can't handle the guilt of this and being wrong in the manner they watched her. That's where the vitriol of "they were wrong" is coming from.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

It seems to me that he was probably drunk and made a gross error. He seemed very laid back about watching a child that little. Prior to the window you can see him trailing behind her as she runs through the room. That's just risky in general for a child that age. Especially in a crowded room in a strange location. So he was one of those kind of caregivers that don't really watch their child. Seems like the mom and dad are probably the same type or they'd never let him watch her.

I think they probably have a history of being those types of parents who let their kids run wild in restaurants and don't enforce manners and there probably have been previous incidents where someone commented on their lack of parenting skills. Or perhaps the child fell and got hurt in a simple way. And they can't handle the guilt of this and being wrong in the manner they watched her. That's where the vitriol of "they were wrong" is coming from.

I thought this too, but then I watch the video again. To me medicated and/or drunk - this would have happened within a few seconds of SA hoisting CW up to the railing. If you watch the video, she is there over 30 seconds. It's only finally when SA holds her by only his left hand (you can see his right hand come up and is holding something, maybe a phone or camera) that she falls. In the interview he gave, he was asked how was he holding her, and before he could even give an answer the interviewer answers for him something like "in a bear hug" and holds his hands out as if both arms are *wrapped* around CW, and SA nods in agreement. SA never even answered for himself!! So to me the amount of time that passes before she falls makes me feel this is less than a crazy accident and something else instead. You don't stand in front of an open window 11 stories up for 30 seconds and then hold a toddler with one hand and not expect something horrible to happen. Not buying it. Not buying his fake tears. He knew what he was doing and he knew that would be the end result. Imo.

 

[Chewy]

I'm not that cynical to think he deliberately tried to hurt her, but that's why I think he was drunk. Even if there was a pane of glass in the window, I don't know too many parents that would let their child lean against a pane of glass that high up. Glass breaks all the time.


I think he made a stupid mistake because he was drunk. Seems like he was trying to take a cool picture of her by the window with the view and dropped her because his motor coordination was off.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

I'm not that cynical to think he deliberately tried to hurt her, but that's why I think he was drunk. Even if there was a pane of glass in the window, I don't know too many parents that would let their child lean against a pane of glass that high up. Glass breaks all the time.


I think he made a stupid mistake because he was drunk. Seems like he was trying to take a cool picture of her by the window with the view and dropped her because his motor coordination was off.

Do you think he knew the window was open, or thought it was shut? just curious.

 

[Chewy]

Do you think he knew the window was open, or thought it was shut? just curious.

I think he knew it was open. And that's why he lifted her up to try to take a picture of her with the view in the background. If he just wanted to let her bang on the glass why didn't he just leave her doing exactly that on the floor?

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I thought this too, but then I watch the video again. To me medicated and/or drunk - this would have happened within a few seconds of SA hoisting CW up to the railing. If you watch the video, she is there over 30 seconds. It's only finally when SA holds her by only his left hand (you can see his right hand come up and is holding something, maybe a phone or camera) that she falls. In the interview he gave, he was asked how was he holding her, and before he could even give an answer the interviewer answers for him something like "in a bear hug" and holds his hands out as if both arms are *wrapped* around CW, and SA nods in agreement. SA never even answered for himself!! So to me the amount of time that passes before she falls makes me feel this is less than a crazy accident and something else instead. You don't stand in front of an open window 11 stories up for 30 seconds and then hold a toddler with one hand and not expect something horrible to happen. Not buying it. Not buying his fake tears. He knew what he was doing and he knew that would be the end result. Imo.

Thank you.

 

[katydid23]

Old MSM articles talk about her brother arriving first before mom got to window. No, I don’t have the links....all of this was posted several times here on WS.

I distinctly remember reading the same thing. I remember because it gutted me to think about that poor kid having to deal with that.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I'm not that cynical to think he deliberately tried to hurt her, but that's why I think he was drunk. Even if there was a pane of glass in the window, I don't know too many parents that would let their child lean against a pane of glass that high up. Glass breaks all the time.


I think he made a stupid mistake because he was drunk. Seems like he was trying to take a cool picture of her by the window with the view and dropped her because his motor coordination was off.

I'm not cynical either, but I know what I saw in the video, the interviews, and the attitudes of the family and SA since this happened. This case's hinkage factor is off the charts. It very much was deliberate and there is much more to this evil story.

 

[LietKynes]

I distinctly remember reading the same thing. I remember because it gutted me to think about that poor kid having to deal with that.

Yes, that brother.
And how cruel to push the "banging on the glass like she did at his hockey games"; indicating those actions might have led to Chloe being indirectly responsible for her tragic death ?
If not RCCL's fault, then was it Chloe's ?
But not SA's fault. Never.

 

[Safetybug]

It seems the elephant in the room is KW/AW. Particularly feisty KW. The whole family doubles down to protect SA. But it’s dual purpose seems to be also protecting the parents; Because they can possibly face charges too since they authorized SA to care for CW and are ultimately culpable for vetting him as babysitter along with his detrimental choice. Got to skip the breathalyzer!!! So they are 1000% invested that the dominoes only fall against RCCL. Saving their own behinds!!! Oh yeah and to “send a message” (sarcasm) & last but most of all the bonanza of $$ imo

 

[LietKynes]

If anyone dropped my baby to her death from 11 stories up out of a window they knew d**n well was open ; the police would be the least of their worries !

 

[mheido67]

It seems the elephant in the room is KW/AW. Particularly feisty KW. The whole family doubles down to protect SA. But it’s dual purpose seems to be also protecting the parents; Because they can possibly face charges too since they authorized SA to care for CW and are ultimately culpable for vetting him as babysitter along with his detrimental choice. Got to skip the breathalyzer!!! So they are 1000% invested that the dominoes only fall against RCCL. Saving their own behinds!!! Oh yeah and to “send a message” (sarcasm) & last but most of all the bonanza of $$ imo

I think a prosecutor would have a really tough time bringing charges against KW and/or AW unless they could prove that either of them had reason to believe that SA would put CW in mortal danger or that they knew that he had done so on previous occasions. I think it would take more than a few driving without a seatbelt citations to demonstrate that.

 

[justice4allnow]

1). IF that is what happened, I can see it being an accident. Maybe she was squirmy and when "she reached forward to bang on the glass" and the glass wasn't there, I can see how she may have tumbled out. Grandpa may not have thought or known CA would do this.
If it's #1, Momma holds some responsibility for leaving her child with the grandfather. RCCL also holds some responsibility. And grandpa, living with knowing what he did is "prison" enough.

Razz, I'm curious why you think that RCCL is responsible for Chloe's death if she was seated on the railing when she fell. That railing is a safety railing for an adult to lean against or place a hand on-it's not a seat of any kind. No child could reach it on their own. When purchasing tickets, all passengers agree to not sit or stand on the railings. We have copies of the agreement in our past threads. No other child has fallen out of a window in all of the years the RCCL ships have been in use. I'd genuinely like to understand your reasoning, as no doubt Winkleman will be making this same argument. Thank you!

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

Just biting my tongue here....

 

[Razz]

I di

Razz, I'm curious why you think that RCCL is responsible for Chloe's death if she was seated on the railing when she fell. That railing is a safety railing for an adult to lean against or place a hand on-it's not a seat of any kind. No child could reach it on their own. When purchasing tickets, all passengers agree to not sit or stand on the railings. We have copies of the agreement in our past threads. No other child has fallen out of a window in all of the years the RCCL ships have been in use. I'd genuinely like to understand your reasoning, as no doubt Winkleman will be making this same argument. Thank

SA didn't sit her on the bar but let her stand on the bar so see could see out. I'm sure she was curious what was behind the wall and windows. I can see her wanting to be picked up so she could see what was happening.

Maybe she was telling Grandpa, lift me up so I can see. He looks outside, sees no harm and lifts her up so she can stand on the bar on the inside of the window. Maybe she leaned forward thinking there was glass there. To catch his balance, SA naturally reaches forward looking to stop her lunge to the window. But with no window, off she tumbled.

As far as RCCL's disclosure statements
about no standing on the rails etc, I'm afraid I've never read them. Personally, I wouldn't step on any hand rail nor would I put a child up there but if you're a grandpa and your grandchild is tugging at your sleeve wanting to see out, well...who knows. AND... it looks like it might be easy enough for a child to climb on top of a table and climb up to the window and see out that way on their own.. It seems like there were bunches of tables and chairs in that area.

And Clohe looked to be quite mobile. Which is why Momma never should have left her with SA.

I think the mother is feeling extreme guilt (as she should) and that could be why she's fighting so hard to say it was RCCL's fault. Otherwise, she'd have to admit that she left her child with an older gentleman who may not have been totally aware how little ones can wriggle out of an embrace or get into trouble in a matter of seconds.

Anyway, that's how I'd argue it.

 

[Razz]

Razz, I'm curious why you think that RCCL is responsible for Chloe's death if she was seated on the railing when she fell. That railing is a safety railing for an adult to lean against or place a hand on-it's not a seat of any kind. No child could reach it on their own. When purchasing tickets, all passengers agree to not sit or stand on the railings. We have copies of the agreement in our past threads. No other child has fallen out of a window in all of the years the RCCL ships have been in use. I'd genuinely like to understand your reasoning, as no doubt Winkleman will be making this same argument. Thank you!

So sorry. My rather lengthy reply became part of your quote. Please expand your quote above it to read it.

 

[Wicked Strong]

I'm not that cynical to think he deliberately tried to hurt her, but that's why I think he was drunk. Even if there was a pane of glass in the window, I don't know too many parents that would let their child lean against a pane of glass that high up. Glass breaks all the time.


I think he made a stupid mistake because he was drunk. Seems like he was trying to take a cool picture of her by the window with the view and dropped her because his motor coordination was off.

I'm sorry but I disagree with the drunk statement. There were many people immediately after the accident, the doctor for one. If he was drunk, I am certain that the doctor or at least someone close to SA would smell alcohol. He was also taken to a room following his collapse on the floor, yet no one has ever commented on he had alcohol on his breath. I know for a fact that you can smell alcohol before you are ever tested and proved drunk.

MOO

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

Ple

So sorry. My rather lengthy reply became part of your quote. Please expand your quote above it to read it.

Please do not deflect and answer the poster’s question as I am also most interested.

 

[HRH Phoebe Cat]

Wiki reference “gaslighting”

Gaslighting - Wikipedia

 

[justice4allnow]

Razz, you said that maybe she was telling grandpa lift me up so I can see. But take a look at some of the photos and you will see that the rows of windows extend all of the way to the floor-so she could see out perfectly from the floor where she stood and could bang on that glass there as well. He had no need to lift her up to accomplish seeing out nor banging on glass. You also said, AND... it looks like it might be easy enough for a child to climb on top of a table and climb up to the window and see out that way on their own. Actually, though it may look as though it would be easy, it would not, because most of the furniture is bolted to the floor and cannot be dragged around to facilitate climbing onto the rail nor out the window. We saw that in a video too. As well, adult supervision should prevent that.
Your points are good though, and it's only because I've been following the thread for some time that I know a few of the facts. One of the WS members downloaded great documents about the case and another created a very valuable media timeline at the beginning of the threads- the videos and news stories there are a treasure trove to learn about the case, if you have any time or interest. It's great to have a fresh viewpoint on the case, so I'm glad that you've joined the conversation.