IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[neesaki]

Why would MW create a false timeline for events prior to the incident? WHy would he create a fictional time for boarding when that can clearly be established via electronic records? Why would he lie about when and where they went to eat? Surely he knows there are video cameras everywhere. There is absolutely no reason for MW to create a fiction about any of that.

Could be no reason for him to, but he's told so many fictitious tales throughout this case it's hard to believe anything he does say. Which leads at least some of us here to now question everything he says. Bottom line, he's untrustworthy, a status he has earned all on his own. As the old saying goes, "once a liar, always a liar".

 

[mheido67]

This from the July 11th Daily Mail story;

"Winkleman said Royal Caribbean had thus far refused to give him access to the video footage of Chloe falling from the ship.

He said the San Juan Police Department had similarly refused to give a copy to the family's Puerto Rican attorneys, whom he declined to name citing a request not to give out their details to the media.

Chloe's parents were offered the chance to view the tape in private but they declined, he confirmed.

'They weren't ready to see it. I'm extremely anxious to watch the video because there will be nothing obviously more definitive to show what actually happened.'

Devastated grandfather of toddler who died falling from his arms on cruise ship arrives in Chicago | Daily Mail Online

I bet he'd like to eat those words now.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Unless someone quotes DM articles, I don't have any idea what the media source reports. The site doesn't like my *advertiser censored*bl***er, and there are far too many ads/videos to even try to wend my way through the trash

 

[justbreathe]

I don't think that the brother was at the scene at all. Per the doctor's statement, the boy didn't come down to the infirmary to join the family until much later, with the other grandparents. If he was at the scene why wouldn't he have come down with his parents? And why was he kept separated from everyone else in the infirmary?

Order of arrival to infirmary:

1. SA and his wife.
2. While still attending to them, KW & AW accompanied by security and placed in a room away from SA.
3. "Later" the son and "other family" accompanied by a care team member, which sounds as if it is some amount of time that has passed before this group came down, and again, are kept away from both of the other parties.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the boy had actually been there or seen any of it. If he had I'd assume he'd be hysterical and traumatized himself, possibly clinging to his parents in a need to feel secure himself after all of that, not "sitting in an office playing with his cell phone" like he's just bored and waiting for this to be done so he can get back to doing vacation things. It sounds as if he was intentionally kept away as if to protect him until perhaps his parents had calmed down or there was just a better time to try and explain to him that his sister had died.

Doctors Declaration from the prelim response:
Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

KW said her son was the first to tell her something happened to Chloe. I imagine he was brought away because his mom was freaking out.

 

[al66pine]

Photos in Complaint. Where & When Taken? Who Took?
Complaint: chloe wigand civil.pdf
Where. Page 6 photo just to left of 'prison bar window' or scupper/hatch shows a couple little planes & taxiway/airstrip, verifying as @mheido67 posted, that photo was taken at San Juan PR's PanAmerican pier. Other pics on pages 4, 5, and 6 seem generally consistent w this location.

When. Daylight. From shadows, were pix taken before or after sun was at zenith/highest point of day?
Right side of page 4 top photo shows a row of lounge chairs w shadows cast to their left/viewer's right. Ditto page 5 top photo.
PanAmerican pier runs roughly east-west, and the port side of Fr/Seas (w Squeeze bar), looking onto small planes & airstrip, faces roughly north.
If I've got ^ right, w sun coming from right side of pic casting shadows to left, then taken in morning.
Ship sailed that evening/night, so no chance for anyone to take pix the next morning.
If taken in morning, then imo likely taken on Fr/Seas' return to SanJuan, after cruise the family group was scheduled for. I could be wrong.

Who Took? Yellow caution tape is present in these pix. Altho no LE or Crime Scene notation on tape, my best guess is that PR LE techs took pix. Seems likely prosecution produced pix in crim discovery to SA's crim counsel, who passed copies to Team Winkleman. I think the timing works.
If not PR LE's pix, how did Team W obtain them, to insert in the Complaint, filed Dec 11?
I doubt Team W could have had someone sneak aboard Fr/Seas, elbow the pax aside, rearrange furniture, put up yellow tape & snap pix before RCL allowed inspection in January.
jmo

 

[Jewels53]

Because Mr. Anello’s conduct was not foreseeable, this tragedy was not foreseeable. RCL had no duty to protect Chloe against Mr. Anello’s conduct. SeeMonteleone, 838 F.2d at 65 Case 1:19-cv-25100-DLG Document 30 Entered on FLSD Docket 02/12/2020 Page 21 of 23

20 (shipowner not an insurer of passenger safety and does not become liable merely because an accident occurs). This is because RCL does not have a duty to protect against unforeseeable acts committed by a third-party.

New Motion to Dismiss 2-13.pdf

I love this part of the Motion to Dismiss from RCL. Calling Anello a Third Part

 

[LietKynes]

KW said her son was the first to tell her something happened to Chloe. I imagine he was brought away because his mom was freaking out.

Agreed.
In the first threads, she said that she thought Chloe would've fallen in the water.
Just like SA's fake crying, the talk show circuit interviews were odd and off-putting.
The main emotional portion was about "fixing the ship".

Chloe was described as a 'foodie' and a 'fashionista'.
Surprised Chloe wasn't touted as being a 'great swimmer'.
That obituary was describing a child whose parents have unrealistic expectations.

 

[Montrealaise]

@Kakidoll: A couple of months before Chloe's death, KW set up a crowdfunding site to raise money to send her son to a hockey tournament in the Czech Republic that August. She was asking for $7,000 but the site only raised a few hundred dollars.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

Agreed.
BBM RSBM

Chloe was described as a 'foodie' and a 'fashionista'.
Surprised Chloe wasn't touted as being a 'great swimmer'.
That obituary was describing a child whose parents have unrealistic expectations.

I still find that statement just weird while describing an 18 month old, but that’s just my own personal opinion.

 

[Pigey]

Agreed.
In the first threads, she said that she thought Chloe would've fallen in the water.
Just like SA's fake crying, the talk show circuit interviews were odd and off-putting.
The main emotional portion was about "fixing the ship".

Chloe was described as a 'foodie' and a 'fashionista'.
Surprised Chloe wasn't touted as being a 'great swimmer'.
That obituary was describing a child whose parents have unrealistic expectations.

How about describing Chloe as a victim of her "beloved" grandpa? How about describing Chloe's death as an opportunity to cash in? JMO ETC.

 

[mheido67]

Photos in Complaint. Where & When Taken? Who Took?
Complaint: chloe wigand civil.pdf
Where. Page 6 photo just to left of 'prison bar window' or scupper/hatch shows a couple little planes & taxiway/airstrip, verifying as @mheido67 posted, that photo was taken at San Juan PR's PanAmerican pier. Other pics on pages 4, 5, and 6 seem generally consistent w this location.

When. Daylight. From shadows, were pix taken before or after sun was at zenith/highest point of day?
Right side of page 4 top photo shows a row of lounge chairs w shadows cast to their left/viewer's right. Ditto page 5 top photo.
PanAmerican pier runs roughly east-west, and the port side of Fr/Seas (w Squeeze bar), looking onto small planes & airstrip, faces roughly north.
If I've got ^ right, w sun coming from right side of pic casting shadows to left, then taken in morning.
Ship sailed that evening/night, so no chance for anyone to take pix the next morning.
If taken in morning, then imo likely taken on Fr/Seas' return to SanJuan, after cruise the family group was scheduled for. I could be wrong.

Who Took? Yellow caution tape is present in these pix. Altho no LE or Crime Scene notation on tape, my best guess is that PR LE techs took pix. Seems likely prosecution produced pix in crim discovery to SA's crim counsel, who passed copies to Team Winkleman. I think the timing works.
If not PR LE's pix, how did Team W obtain them, to insert in the Complaint, filed Dec 11?
I doubt Team W could have had someone sneak aboard Fr/Seas, elbow the pax aside, rearrange furniture, put up yellow tape & snap pix before RCL allowed inspection in January.
jmo

Actually, I believe you’ve got north and south reversed. The airstrip would be south of the ship. That being the case the shadows being cast to the left of the lounge chairs would be the result of the sun being to the right which is west. Later afternoon sun.

If PR LE went back aboard a week later they indeed would have done it in the morning between disembarkation and embarkation so there would be no need to cordon off the area as no passengers would be aboard.

I imagine these are PR LE photos taken by a tech early in the onboard investigation the day of the incident done perhaps while the detectives were below interviewing the family members.

 

[mheido67]

I still find that statement just weird while describing an 18 month old, but that’s just my own personal opinion.

It’s a bit odd to refer to an 18 month old that way but I chalk it up to a) needing to find things to populate the obituary of a person with very limited life experiences and b) possibly it being something the family would jokingly say amongst themselves when referring to Chloe before she died.

 

[al66pine]

Who is Rep'ing Whom? And Speaking for?

This from the July 11th Daily Mail story...."Winkleman said Royal Caribbean had thus far refused to give him access to the video footage of Chloe falling from the ship.

He said the San Juan Police Department had similarly refused to give a copy to the family's Puerto Rican attorneys, whom he declined to name citing a request not to give out their details to the media.... Devastated grandfather of toddler who died falling from his arms on cruise ship arrives in Chicago | Daily Mail Online ....

]@mheido67 bbm sbm The family's "Puerto Rican attorneys."
Who would that be? Rep'ing who? KSW & AW? SA? Other fam?
IIRC, one of the first MSM articles said SA has a PR crim atty.
So were "The family's Puerto Rican attorneys" someone other than SA's crim atty?
At that point, had SJW & AW hired PR crim atty's for themselves?

What the heck was Winkleman doing - speaking for another atty (not w his firm)?

 

[al66pine]

.

 

[al66pine]

Actually, I believe you’ve got north and south reversed. The airstrip would be south of the ship....

@mheido67 sbm Thank you for the ^ correction (as I posted - if I've got this right- which I did not). Sitting at a table & handing an image around would make discussing it easier & clearer. Again, thanks. And to others, sorry for any confusion my post caused.

 

[Wicked Strong]

Regarding who took the pictures at night, I had read somewhere that the father himself had come back and taken pictures of the window, but I can't find a link and it probably was just people speculating. When I search for did Alan Wiegand take pictures, all I get is countless stories about "liked to bang on the glass". I am simply sick of that story line, so I stopped searching.

One thing I read on the Media Thread at the first of this thread was a statement SA made when he was being interviewed on TV.
"I saw her fall. I saw her fall the whole way down. I saw her fall, and I was just in disbelief. I was like, 'Oh my God,' and then I just remember screaming that I thought there was glass there," Anello said in an interview that aired Tuesday.

So apparently he saw her fall all the way to the dock. IMO, his early interviews were probably the closer to the truth than now, and since they are in print and video, they will come back to haunt him at his criminal trial. I think he is scheduled to appear this Monday in PR, and I think it might be close to trial time.

MOO

 

[Kindred]

Who is Rep'ing Whom? And Speaking for?
@mheido67 bbm sbm The family's "Puerto Rican attorneys."
Who would that be? Rep'ing who? KSW & AW? SA? Other fam?
IIRC, one of the first MSM articles said SA has a PR crim atty.
So were "The family's Puerto Rican attorneys" someone other than SA's crim atty?
At that point, had SJW & AW hired PR crim atty's for themselves?

What the heck was Winkleman doing - speaking for another atty (not w his firm)?

I think in this instance Winkleman referring to "the family" is to try and show the Wiegands and SA are united in this. The many statements released have often referred to the criminal case as what they seem to view as a personal attack, even if the case is only against SA.

"The family publicly asks the Puerto Rican authorities, why was this footage released? Why do you continue to inflict such heinous emotional distress on our family? Haven't we been punished enough by the loss of Chloe?"

Grandfather offered plea deal in girl's cruise ship death as Puerto Rico TV show airs video

“These criminal charges are pouring salt on the open wounds of this grieving family,”

https://nypost.com/2019/10/29/famil...for-role-in-chloe-wiegands-cruise-ship-death/

"We have never wanted charges filed against Sam because we know with all of our hearts that he would never put Chloe in harm's way.

"We will stand with Sam as long as it takes - but we cannot grieve as a family until the criminal charges are dropped."

Desperate parents of toddler dropped to her death from Royal Caribbean ship say indicted granddad would 'never harm' her

Though there is the possibility that KW and AW are contributing quite a bit financially to SA's defense fees. This could be why the defense attorney has been so willing to give over stuff to Winkleman. I don't think he agrees with the publicity tour and press conferences, but he might feel obligated to give them stuff since they're the ones paying him. Just a thought.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I still find that statement just weird while describing an 18 month old, but that’s just my own personal opinion.

IMO The whole obit is just disturbing.

 

[al66pine]

....Though there is the possibility that KW and AW are contributing quite a bit financially to SA's defense fees. This could be why the defense attorney has been so willing to give over stuff to Winkleman. I don't think he agrees with the publicity tour and press conferences, but he might feel obligated to give them stuff since they're the ones paying him. Just a thought.

@Kindred sbm bbm Thank you very much for reply.
Somewhere along the line, I got the impression that SA's had a public defender, but maybe not.
Anyone - a definitive link re this, one way or another? Thx in adv.

 

[JulieBEMT]

While I couldn't stomach the article itself (SO sick of "elderly" "colorblind" and "silver haired!), this one says his next court date is 2/24
https://expressinformer.com/parents...l-caribbean-ship-beg-puerto-rico-to-end-case/