IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[Kindred]

Her son had come upon the scene first. I wonder if he told her...

I don't think that the brother was at the scene at all. Per the doctor's statement, the boy didn't come down to the infirmary to join the family until much later, with the other grandparents. If he was at the scene why wouldn't he have come down with his parents? And why was he kept separated from everyone else in the infirmary?

Order of arrival to infirmary:

1. SA and his wife.
2. While still attending to them, KW & AW accompanied by security and placed in a room away from SA.
3. "Later" the son and "other family" accompanied by a care team member, which sounds as if it is some amount of time that has passed before this group came down, and again, are kept away from both of the other parties.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the boy had actually been there or seen any of it. If he had I'd assume he'd be hysterical and traumatized himself, possibly clinging to his parents in a need to feel secure himself after all of that, not "sitting in an office playing with his cell phone" like he's just bored and waiting for this to be done so he can get back to doing vacation things. It sounds as if he was intentionally kept away as if to protect him until perhaps his parents had calmed down or there was just a better time to try and explain to him that his sister had died.

Doctors Declaration from the prelim response:
Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

 

[mheido67]

Haha, no I don’t think there will be any talk of the grand scheme to kill her for money. But I think the testimony about whether he knew, or should have known, there was no glass, and why he lifted her over the safety rail is going to involve his drinking habits and what medication he takes, and his past tendency to recklessly disregard the rules. I think it will involve personal questions about their family relationships and I think it will be uncomfortable at best. And I think it will make it much harder to stay in denial that Sam would never, never, never, ever, ever, never put Chloe in danger.

A) Any prosecutor/defense counsel who did not ask about alcohol or drug use in this circumstance should be fired for incompetence.

B) What kinds of questions about their family relationships that would be uncomfortable do you expect the prosecutor/defense counsel would ask?

Sorry, the fact that there are two legal proceedings involved here complicates these exchanges.

 

[mheido67]

I don't think that the brother was at the scene at all. Per the doctor's statement, the boy didn't come down to the infirmary to join the family until much later, with the other grandparents. If he was at the scene why wouldn't he have come down with his parents? And why was he kept separated from everyone else in the infirmary?

Order of arrival to infirmary:

1. SA and his wife.
2. While still attending to them, KW & AW accompanied by security and placed in a room away from SA.
3. "Later" the son and "other family" accompanied by a care team member, which sounds as if it is some amount of time that has passed before this group came down, and again, are kept away from both of the other parties.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the boy had actually been there or seen any of it. If he had I'd assume he'd be hysterical and traumatized himself, possibly clinging to his parents in a need to feel secure himself after all of that, not "sitting in an office playing with his cell phone" like he's just bored and waiting for this to be done so he can get back to doing vacation things. It sounds as if he was intentionally kept away as if to protect him until perhaps his parents had calmed down or there was just a better time to try and explain to him that his sister had died.

Doctors Declaration from the prelim response:
Wiegand Prelim Response to Dismiss 4.pdf

Clearly in these situations protocol is to keep young children away from the hysterical adult family members. Quite understandable. Seeing a parent so distraught can be as traumatic as the understanding that something very bad happened to your sibling.

The doctor doesn't say "much later", he says later the rest of the family joined. I read this as a very matter of fact accounting of the fact that they simply arrived seperately. Again, I think the other grandparents would have taken charge of Wyatt as KW and AW would have been completely beside themselves and surrounded by ship staff.

From what I’ve heard Wyatt was with AW at one of the neighboring pools when CW fell. What’s unclear is if any of the other family members were with him at that point. So Wyatt was present. I doubt AW and whatever other family members were present just left him at the other pool by himself when CW fell. What could have happened (a theory) is Wyatt heard the commotion, saw that SA was involved and told his dad (and possibly KW?) he thinks something might have happened to CW at which point any other family on deck 11 would find out. I highly doubt Wyatt saw CW on the pier or knew specifically that she was dead. I think who was where and when they found out something happened will be cleared up as soon as people start to be deposed.

 

[mheido67]

RCCL filed their revised Motion to Dismiss on 02/12/2020. So if the plaintiffs have 21 days to file a response that would give them til 03/04/2020.

 

[Kindred]

Snipped to address individual points, All BBM

Clearly in these situations protocol is to keep young children away from the hysterical adult family members. Quite understandable. Seeing a parent so distraught can be as traumatic as the understanding that something very bad happened to your sibling.

That is my point though, he's not acting in any way traumatized. He's acting like any bored kid waiting in a doctor's office. If he was there when KW found out he would have already seen the start of the break down/freak out and probably 1 - would have known something was horribly wrong with his sister and 2 - even if it didn't register something happened to Chloe been much more anxious wondering why his mother had gotten hysterical and been concerned if she was ok.

The doctor doesn't say "much later", he says later the rest of the family joined. I read this as a very matter of fact accounting of the fact that they simply arrived seperately. Again, I think the other grandparents would have taken charge of Wyatt as KW and AW would have been completely beside themselves and surrounded by ship staff.

I didn't say much later, just that some amount of time. It could have been 5 minutes or it could have been half an hour, it's just interesting that he makes such a distinction between noting that the parents were brought in while he was still evaluating SA and his wife and trying to calm them down as opposed to just saying something like "next the parents arrived" or "after that the parents arrived".

**edit - actually I went and read my statement again I did say much later. I do apologize for that. But I still stand by the fact that later could mean any amount of time.

From what I’ve heard Wyatt was with AW at one of the neighboring pools when CW fell. What’s unclear is if any of the other family members were with him at that point. So Wyatt was present. I doubt AW and whatever other family members were present just left him at the other pool by himself when CW fell. What could have happened (a theory) is Wyatt heard the commotion, saw that SA was involved and told his dad (and possibly KW?) he thinks something might have happened to CW at which point any other family on deck 11 would find out. I highly doubt Wyatt saw CW on the pier or knew specifically that she was dead. I think who was where and when they found out something happened will be cleared up as soon as people start to be deposed.

Do you have a link to that source confirming that he definitely was there? In an earlier thread, I had made a suggestion about AW and the boy possibly being at the pool when people were still finding it suspicious that the rest of the family wasn't with SA and Chloe and were still trying to figure out why he had her alone. I'd offered that if KW had taken Chloe to the splash pad that dad MIGHT have taken him to the pool, or possibly just exploring to figure out what and where things for his age group might be, but I haven't actually seen anything saying explicitly that that was the case.

Even if he was at the pool, there is a wall-like barrier between the pools and H2O zone, I imagine to create a more containable area to decrease the risk of little ones wandering away towards the more of a drowning hazard swimming pool. Even if he had heard something, he wouldn't have been able to see anything from there. He would have had to leave the pool and walk around the barrier to see anything, and even then the Squeeze bar is on the other side of the H2O zone again making that less likely.

The red circle in this overhead photo shows approximately where the Squeeze Bar/incident are located. The green square is the pool area. That's a big distance for a boy to have heard/seen anything over even if the wall wasn't there.

 

[mheido67]

Snipped to address individual points, All BBM



That is my point though, he's not acting in any way traumatized. He's acting like any bored kid waiting in a doctor's office. If he was there when KW found out he would have already seen the start of the break down/freak out and probably 1 - would have known something was horribly wrong with his sister and 2 - even if it didn't register something happened to Chloe been much more anxious wondering why his mother had gotten hysterical and been concerned if she was ok.



I didn't say much later, just that some amount of time. It could have been 5 minutes or it could have been half an hour, it's just interesting that he makes such a distinction between noting that the parents were brought in while he was still evaluating SA and his wife and trying to calm them down as opposed to just saying something like "next the parents arrived" or "after that the parents arrived".



Do you have a link to that source confirming that he definitely was there? In an earlier thread, I had made a suggestion about AW and the boy possibly being at the pool when people were still finding it suspicious that the rest of the family wasn't with SA and Chloe and were still trying to figure out why he had her alone. I'd offered that if KW had taken Chloe to the splash pad that dad MIGHT have taken him to the pool, or possibly just exploring to figure out what and where things for his age group might be, but I haven't actually seen anything saying explicitly that that was the case.

Even if he was at the pool, there is a wall-like barrier between the pools and H2O zone, I imagine to create a more containable area to decrease the risk of little ones wandering away towards the more of a drowning hazard swimming pool. Even if he had heard something, he wouldn't have been able to see anything from there. He would have had to leave the pool and walk around the barrier to see anything, and even then the Squeeze bar is on the other side of the H2O zone again making that less likely.

View attachment 233388
The red circle in this overhead photo shows approximately where the Squeeze Bar/incident are located. The green square is the pool area. That's a big distance for a boy to have heard/seen anything over even if the wall wasn't there.

In fact you did say much later;

"Per the doctor's statement, the boy didn't come down to the infirmary to join the family until much later..."

Perhaps it was your comments about them being at another pool that I was recalling. Again, I think the whereabouts and movements of all the family members will be detailed in any depositions that are given. I guess this shows the dangers of speculating on "things you've heard".

My wife deals with kids who have experienced traumatic situations. You'd be surprised how they react. I really don't find it all that surprising that he would be distracting himself with a phone while someone was trying to get his attention off of the events. I'm sure he was told as little as possible. Medical staff are trained to deal with these situations. Forhis sake I hope he was exposed to as little of the immediate aftermath as possible.

 

[Kindred]

In fact you did say much later;

"Per the doctor's statement, the boy didn't come down to the infirmary to join the family until much later..."

Perhaps it was your comments about them being at another pool that I was recalling. Again, I think the whereabouts and movements of all the family members will be detailed in any depositions that are given. I guess this shows the dangers of speculating on "things you've heard".

My wife deals with kids who have experienced traumatic situations. You'd be surprised how they react. I really don't find it all that surprising that he would be distracting himself with a phone while someone was trying to get his attention off of the events. I'm sure he was told as little as possible. Medical staff are trained to deal with these situations. Forhis sake I hope he was exposed to as little of the immediate aftermath as possible.

Yeah, I see that I said that now. I had tried not to make it seem like I meant hours and hours and still did it anyway lol. Been doing so much reading lately I forget to go back and see what I put previously. My apologies.

I'm really worried about him as well. He's at that age where kids can be especially cruel when it comes to teasing, and with as public as this all has been kept I sometimes worry some *advertiser censored****** kid might try to torment him about what his grandfather did. I hope he has good friends/teammates to help him through. And I really, really hope he's getting some kind of counseling. This whole ongoing circus has got to be really hard on him. He shouldn't be forgotten about in this or just used conveniently for sympathy over the video release.

 

[Kindred]

Even if he was at the pool, there is a wall-like barrier between the pools and H2O zone, I imagine to create a more containable area to decrease the risk of little ones wandering away towards the more of a drowning hazard swimming pool.

Snipped for brevity. I just scared myself thinking about the video picturing Chloe toddling over to the pool instead of the windows if there wasn't a wall there and just going plop right into the water with SA just casually wandering about 10 feet away in absolutely no rush to stop her/fish her out.

Also, I really kind of love this photo. Who wants to play count the open windows on deck 11?

 

[mheido67]

Snipped for brevity. I just scared myself thinking about the video picturing Chloe toddling over to the pool instead of the windows if there wasn't a wall there and just going plop right into the water with SA just casually wandering about 10 feet away in absolutely no rush to stop her/fish her out.

Also, I really kind of love this photo. Who wants to play count the open windows on deck 11?

Yes, his attention to her as she wandered around deck 11 (someplace they were both unfamiliar with) was less than comforting. I understand RCCL now has dedicated lifeguards at all pools. It always amazed me how many kids seemed to be loosely attended, at best, in those pools.

Another thing I have remained surprised about is that there (according to RCCL) wasn't any cctv footage from outboard cameras. Clearly the camera located below the bridge wing is blocked from capturing the deck 11 windows by the cantilevered hot tub. No chance that camera would have caught the start of CW's fall. I would have assumed, given the length of the ship, that there would have been additional outboard cameras located further aft. But apparently nothing that would capture something going out those deck 11 windows.

 

[Yellowbeak]

bbm
Sorry-- I answered and I think you were looking for someone else to chime in.
Doesn't appear to be many posting on this thread....so thanks for keeping it alive and kicking.

There's other theories ....but if -- and when -- this goes to trial we may be able to discuss it further.

As for now I'm curious about what the 'ship errand' KW had to leave Chloe with SA for ?
Was there no one else that was more trustworthy ?
Why him ?

I doubt it was something the ship needed her to do. They don’t hunt people down for things, they are to busy with embarkation. She probably wanted to sign up for specialty dining or went to guest services for something. She probably just wanted to go alone and explore a little bit.

 

[Kindred]

Yes, his attention to her as she wandered around deck 11 (someplace they were both unfamiliar with) was less than comforting. I understand RCCL now has dedicated lifeguards at all pools. It always amazed me how many kids seemed to be loosely attended, at best, in those pools.

Another thing I have remained surprised about is that there (according to RCCL) wasn't any cctv footage from outboard cameras. Clearly the camera located below the bridge wing is blocked from capturing the deck 11 windows by the cantilevered hot tub. No chance that camera would have caught the start of CW's fall. I would have assumed, given the length of the ship, that there would have been additional outboard cameras located further aft. But apparently nothing that would capture something going out those deck 11 windows.

They may have been pointed downwards towards the dock. I'm sure some of the external cameras are moveable and end up being used to help during docking/departure maneuvering. A ship that big you need all the help you can get making sure you don't ram into the pier or any other obstacles. It's also possible that since it was docked and during embarkation/loading that any of that stuff that would normally be turned on to watch for/detect people going overboard was just turned off and viewed as not needed at this time. So I'm surprised but also not really

 

[Kindred]

I doubt it was something the ship needed her to do. They don’t hunt people down for things, they are to busy with embarkation. She probably wanted to sign up for specialty dining or went to guest services for something. She probably just wanted to go alone and explore a little bit.

According to the timeline in the civil complaint, she was called away on an errand. It doesn't explain how or why. Per a commenter who is very familiar with cruising, she said it could have been for something such as needing to work out crib arrangements or daily diaper disposal.

My guess is that SA was in the rooms when someone showed up there looking for KW and he volunteered to go find her because he knew they were up at the splash pad. This is a perfectly plausible scenario that would explain how he ended up watching Chloe alone, but we don't fully know.

chloe wigand civil.pdf

 

[Midwestmom2019]

BBM Maybe it does actually make sense...IYKWIM? JMOO

The buffet was on the 11th floor. Same floor where SA dropped her. KW finished her errand then went to eat with rest of family. That’s why son was first on the scene. Someone must have come and told the family. He hightailed it over to Squeeze. While rest of family came right behind him. Meh. Sick.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Has anyone added up all the *** and FB fundraisers for a total they received? in addition to RCCL paying for their transportation home etc? Just curious.

One poster mentioned they received WAY less for this tragedy than others that have funds set up. By like 80% less. Wiegand’s received money. But the point was that most people didn’t donate to Weigands bc they smell fraud.

 

[Kindred]

The buffet was on the 11th floor. Same floor where SA dropped her. KW finished her errand then went to eat with rest of family. That’s why son was first on the scene. Someone must have come and told the family. He hightailed it over to Squeeze. While rest of family came right behind him. Meh. Sick.

No one was in the buffet. They ate before Mom and Chloe got into their bathing suits and went up to play. This is the official timeline given by the family in the civil complaint.

"11.On or about July 7, 2019, at approximately 1:15 p.m., the family boarded the vessel in San Juan, Puerto Rico for a 7-night Southern Caribbean cruise. Upon boarding, the family went to the Windjammer Café for lunch. After lunch, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand and Chloe changed into swimsuits, and at approximately 2:40 p.m., they began to play in the pool(s) aboard the ship.

12. At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs.Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, his 18-month-old granddaughter, as shown below:

13. The H2O Zone is advertised by Defendant to be a “kids’...water park[.]”

Case 1:19-cv-25100-DLG Document 1 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/11/2019 Page 3 of 21


chloe wigand civil.pdf

 

[mheido67]

The buffet was on the 11th floor. Same floor where SA dropped her. KW finished her errand then went to eat with rest of family. That’s why son was first on the scene. Someone must have come and told the family. He hightailed it over to Squeeze. While rest of family came right behind him. Meh. Sick.

Not exactly, the complaint says they boarded at 1:15 and went to Windjammer to eat. Windjammer is the buffet on deck 11 and is typically the only restaurant open during embarkation. Most people head there since the rooms are often not yet available to guests as housekeeping is still in the process of cleaning from the previous occupants.

The complaint also says after lunch KW and CW changed into swim suits and went to the H2O Zone at 2:40pm. Lunch was done and they probably got access to their rooms, changed and went back up to deck 11. At this point we don't really know where the rest of the family was. However, the complaint does say that KW got called away on cruise related business. I think Kindred is likely correct on this, ship staff contacted a stateroom and SA volunteered or was sent to go watch Chloe while she dealt with the issue. The complaint says SA "went up to deck 11". Perhaps all the grandparents were settling into their rooms when the call came to attend to Chloe? Still really no idea where AW or WW were.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

There can easily be more than one party found negligent in the same incident.

So SA defense will be there was an open window and not my fault? But RCCL is at fault totally? I wonder if the jury will have to say how much of a percent RCCL should be charged with. They are not on trial. So I presume only SA percentage of fault will be decided? Or no percentage at all leaving percentages for civil trial?
I hope the criminal trial is held before the civil trial. So much will be answered in the civil suit. Maybe even another shot at Motion to Dismiss by RCCL.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

No one was in the buffet. They ate before Mom and Chloe got into their bathing suits and went up to play. This is the official timeline given by the family in the civil complaint.

"11.On or about July 7, 2019, at approximately 1:15 p.m., the family boarded the vessel in San Juan, Puerto Rico for a 7-night Southern Caribbean cruise. Upon boarding, the family went to the Windjammer Café for lunch. After lunch, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand and Chloe changed into swimsuits, and at approximately 2:40 p.m., they began to play in the pool(s) aboard the ship.

12. At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs.Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, his 18-month-old granddaughter, as shown below:

13. The H2O Zone is advertised by Defendant to be a “kids’...water park[.]”

Case 1:19-cv-25100-DLG Document 1 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/11/2019 Page 3 of 21


chloe wigand civil.pdf

I have read that, too. But then in other MSM articles, it stated that they were at the buffet on the 11th floor.
Maybe they had snacks/appetizers at first stop. Like the welcome aboard drink.

 

[mheido67]

No one was in the buffet. They ate before Mom and Chloe got into their bathing suits and went up to play. This is the official timeline given by the family in the civil complaint.

"11.On or about July 7, 2019, at approximately 1:15 p.m., the family boarded the vessel in San Juan, Puerto Rico for a 7-night Southern Caribbean cruise. Upon boarding, the family went to the Windjammer Café for lunch. After lunch, Mrs. Schultz-Wiegand and Chloe changed into swimsuits, and at approximately 2:40 p.m., they began to play in the pool(s) aboard the ship.

12. At or around 3:50 p.m., Mrs.Schultz Wiegand needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise, and as such, Mr. Anello came up to the H2O Zone on Deck 11 of the vessel to supervise Chloe, his 18-month-old granddaughter, as shown below:

13. The H2O Zone is advertised by Defendant to be a “kids’...water park[.]”

Case 1:19-cv-25100-DLG Document 1 Entered on FLSD Docket 12/11/2019 Page 3 of 21


chloe wigand civil.pdf

I had not notice previously but in the photos of the window wall in the MW complaint (pages 4 to 6) all the operable windows have been closed. Not sure when these photos were taken but it's certainly interesting that they do not represent the scene as it was at the time of the incident.

 

[Kindred]

So SA defense will be there was an open window and not my fault? But RCCL is at fault totally? I wonder if the jury will have to say how much of a percent RCCL should be charged with. They are not on trial. So I presume only SA percentage of fault will be decided? Or no percentage at all leaving percentages for civil trial?
I hope the criminal trial is held before the civil trial. So much will be answered in the civil suit. Maybe even another shot at Motion to Dismiss by RCCL.

There's no percentage of fault for a criminal trial. It's only if SA is either guilty or not guilty. And as for the civil case, there is currently no percentage of fault either. The complaint is that the windows are faulty/designed unsafely and RC should have known something like this would have happened. If it gets to a jury trial the only thing they will be asked is if they agree with that or not. No % of anything