IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[al66pine]

AW Taking Pix at Night?

....And think back to the photo of the windows that dad Al took that night, after the accident. At night it is much harder to tell, in the dark, which windows are open. Why did Al choose to photograph the windows at night? Why would he do this?....

@justice4allnow sbm Re ^ bbm, seems AW did not have much choice about light conditions or timing, per info below.
I think it was a now-or-never situation, w the relatively short time elapsing after Chloe's death and before ship departure and/or Wiegand group leaving ship to stay in PR hotel for the night.
Unless taken in the ~ 2 1/2 to 3 hours after her death, his pix were going to be taken at night. jmo.

Timeline
4:00pm................ SA dropped Chloe~ a few minutes after 4:00pm. Still daylight.
6:21 - 7:35pm* ... <---sunset/twilight times, SanJuan PR, July 7.
___ pm? ............. Scheduled sailing/departure. Anyone help w this? IIRC, ~ 8:00 - 8:30pm.
___ pm?............. Actual departure. Anyone help w this? IIRC 10:00 - 10:30pm, so delayed ~ 2 hours?
* Sunrise and sunset times in San Juan

 

[mheido67]

As to whether or not this was intentional, think back to watching an early video shared here on WS, a tour of deck 11 with audio that is on youtube, made by a happy guy on board. As he walks about, it is immediately clear which windows are open, which shut. Sam had been on board several hours when this occurred. If we could tell immediately, on a video, which windows were open, how could he not tell, standing there in person? And we know that there was more than one window open, so this was not the only opening in a wall of glass.
The earliest reports said that he had her in the window sill and out the window. It was Winkleman who began claiming that she was on the safety railing. Even he, when the re-creation of the scene was done, had the doll standing on the window sill. If that window had been closed, how could a toddler have fit on that narrow windowsill? Sam admits that he was holding her with one arm. Even Winkleman admits that at some point Sam let go of her. Who would do this? This simply cannot be an accident. She could have fallen backward and fractured her skull.
And think back to the photo of the windows that dad Al took that night, after the accident. At night it is much harder to tell, in the dark, which windows are open. Why did Al choose to photograph the windows at night? Why would he do this?
Let go of the idea that this was an accident for a moment, those who believe this, and think of Sam, slumped and kneeling by the column, gathering his courage perhaps, and then moving to the window and quickly hoisting Chloe up and out. Does it make any sense to treat a toddler this way? Think: he let go for a moment, holding a baby in a windowsill.
No, I do not see this as anything other than very deliberate.

Chloe died 4:30ish?
Family is taken down to the infirmary.
Sun sets in San Juan around 7pm.

Not a stretch to think that AW spent 2 to 2 1/2 hours in the infirmary before returning to deck 11 to Talk to investigators and take photos. Not sure there’s anything nefarious about it.

 

[Safetybug]

I just saw this video tonight. I don’t know how I missed it before. Notice in this video DB shows a picture of the view of what supposedly SA saw when “he was looking down at Chloe” before he lifted her “onto the railing.” DB said that while looking down Chloe, SA saw the glass in the lower window so it was reasonable that he thought there was glass in the window he lifted Chloe to. Hummmm...I thought that he could not see glass because of his colorblindness? So if he could see glass in that window, why couldn’t he see that there was no glass in the upper window? If you can see glass when it is there, you would know that there is no glass... JMO

Wow ... the way DB describes at the 3 minute mark, shifts my thinking from negligence to diabolical!! and how KW is 100% wrapped around that axil.

 

[Safetybug]

It seems more of a cover-up!?! sooo much latitude given due to their professional status...just my opinion

 

[mheido67]

Edit: Removed the double content. Sorry.

I’d like to ask the parents that if a stranger had lifted Chloe over the rail and out (or nearly out) the window & she fell to her death, would they still consider that the ship’s/RCC’s fault? Or would it be the stranger’s?

I would wager a good sum that they would;

A) Want the stranger charged.

B) Sue the cruise line for having an open window that didn’t comply with industry standards.

Family =/= stranger

Not endorsing this but I’d put money on this no problem.

 

[mheido67]

Bringing forth a lawsuit where everything will be dragged out publicly seems and odd was to avoid facing the truth. But then there would be no big payday.

Well, I think a lot of people here are going to be disappointed when the PR prosecutors don’t stand up and accuse SA of intentionally plotting with KW to murder CW so they can win a big lawsuit. I think, whether you like it or not a lot of the testimony is going to center around the question of whether SA should have known the window was open or not. Same goes for the civil suit.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Well, I think a lot of people here are going to be disappointed when the PR prosecutors don’t stand up and accuse SA of intentionally plotting with KW to murder CW so they can win a big lawsuit. I think, whether you like it or not a lot of the testimony is going to center around the question of whether SA should have known the window was open or not. Same goes for the civil suit.

Welp...that will be a shame, alright. The REAL loser here is CHLOE, who lost her whole future and life. Karma has a way of catching up, however. Sometimes people get away with things, sometimes they don't. In this lifetime, that is. We just have to hope that whoever the guilty party is/are never has a minute's peace or a good night's sleep again.

 

[mheido67]

I just saw this video tonight. I don’t know how I missed it before. Notice in this video DB shows a picture of the view of what supposedly SA saw when “he was looking down at Chloe” before he lifted her “onto the railing.” DB said that while looking down Chloe, SA saw the glass in the lower window so it was reasonable that he thought there was glass in the window he lifted Chloe to. Hummmm...I thought that he could not see glass because of his colorblindness? So if he could see glass in that window, why couldn’t he see that there was no glass in the upper window? If you can see glass when it is there, you would know that there is no glass... JMO

Two things;

1) The argument about his colorblindness isn’t that he couldn’t see glass it’s that the colorblindness reduced his perception of the contrast between the closed and open panes. It’s the fact that he supposedly couldn’t distinguish any difference between the two that would be being claimed. Take that as you will. I don’t give it much credence personally.

2) The more glaring problem with DB’s statement is the faulty logic that says if there is glass at the portion below the railing there must be glass at the portion above the railing. Well, if you go one deck above there are bars below the railing but I doubt anyone would argue that that means there must be bars above the railing. I mean talk about contorting yourself to rationalize something to avoid taking responsibility for not just using your common sense to actually verify whether there was or wasn’t glass.

 

[mheido67]

Pretty tough to argue it was the ship’s fault if a criminal court already determined it was in fact SA’s fault.

There can easily be more than one party found negligent in the same incident.

 

[justbreathe]

Anyone else notice the unusual way KW says “visiting her urn” in the video? And the pause for effect afterwards? Then the instant leap into RCCL’s major role...?

I found KW’s entire demeanor off-putting and her red lipstick and jacket didn’t scream “mourning mother” to me.

 

[justbreathe]

There can easily be more than one party found negligent in the same incident.

True, but it won’t be easy.

 

[justbreathe]

Well, I think a lot of people here are going to be disappointed when the PR prosecutors don’t stand up and accuse SA of intentionally plotting with KW to murder CW so they can win a big lawsuit. I think, whether you like it or not a lot of the testimony is going to center around the question of whether SA should have known the window was open or not. Same goes for the civil suit.

Haha, no I don’t think there will be any talk of the grand scheme to kill her for money. But I think the testimony about whether he knew, or should have known, there was no glass, and why he lifted her over the safety rail is going to involve his drinking habits and what medication he takes, and his past tendency to recklessly disregard the rules. I think it will involve personal questions about their family relationships and I think it will be uncomfortable at best. And I think it will make it much harder to stay in denial that Sam would never, never, never, ever, ever, never put Chloe in danger.

 

[LietKynes]

Haha, no I don’t think there will be any talk of the grand scheme to kill her for money. But I think the testimony about whether he knew, or should have known, there was no glass, and why he lifted her over the safety rail is going to involve his drinking habits and what medication he takes, and his past tendency to recklessly disregard the rules. I think it will involve personal questions about their family relationships and I think it will be uncomfortable at best. And I think it will make it much harder to stay in denial that Sam would never, never, never, ever, ever, never put Chloe in danger.

Agreed, sadly for Chloe's sake.
Not really justice.
But along with SA being convicted might be the death knell of the payout.
Cue fireworks.

 

[Yellowbeak]

I’m watching that one, downloaded in HD. Here’s a link.

https://video-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v...=df20b5f88cf2d5e59987f67876b9c5fa&oe=5E66D171

Thanks!

 

[Calpal]

Is there a version of the La Comay video translated to English?

 

[justice4allnow]

We just have to hope that whoever the guilty party is/are never has a minute's peace or a good night's sleep again.

SaguaroSpirit, I agree. We know that Sam was charged with the only crime that the prosecutor felt that they could win. We heard the prosecutor saying initially that they were considering murder, but ultimately they decided to go for negligent homicide. No one is expecting that now the prosecutor will suddenly stand up in the courtroom and accuse Kim and Sam of plotting murder. Chloe will never get real justice. Even if Sam had to serve 3 years in prison, rather than 3 years probation, that's a slap on the wrist for her life. But most of us hope that those we deem responsible will at least not profit from her death.

 

[justice4allnow]

Is there a version of the La Comay video translated to English?

Calpal, use the closed caption and translate options on YouTube when viewing the La Comay shows. Click on the CC icon. Then click on the gear shaped icon - Settings. Select Subtitles CC where is says Spanish. Click on auto-translate and it will allow you to select English from there. Another WS member, ForeverYoung, posted this info but it's now buried in a closed past thread. Hope this works for you, it did for me!

 

[Calpal]

Justice4allnow thank you!

 

[katydid23]

Except the video doesn’t really show that. It just shows SA’s careless actions. If they don’t want to watch it they need to stop talking about how they know what happened.

THANK YOU. That's hitting the nail on the head.

It's understandable that they don't want to watch the video----I don't think I could---but they cannot stand before a TV or radio audience and tell us 'what happened' if they haven't watched it.

 

[katydid23]

Something I have always wondered since this incident...what exactly was KW told before she ran to the window and looked out? I can’t imagine that someone would have bluntly said, “your daughter fell out of the window.” More likely it would have been something like, “there has been a tragic accident involving your daughter.” Further, how would anyone know that she was the mother to tell her about the accident? Did she just happen upon the chaotic scene and see SA and assume there was a accident? I don’t recall any details of how KW found out.

Her son had come upon the scene first. I wonder if he told her...