IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[mheido67]

The judge will definitely get to see it after all the fuss Winkleman made over those cameras



The question is do they actually have grounds to have that video sealed? As RCCL pointed out in their initial (denied) motion to dismiss, the video already exists in the public domain. That's like trying to close the barn door after the horse has already gotten out.

I'm sure that RCCL's counsel would also mention that MW was showing the video to select media outlets before it leaked. Can't have it both ways MW.

 

[neesaki]

I think you meant if there WAS glass, no? If asked I wager he would respond that he didn't put his head out the window, he just bent over the railing to look down at Chloe.

Yes, just corrected it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention in time to edit!

 

[BeachSky]

Yes. The answer was yes. OMG I was so ANGRY watching the crockpot of crap and spin served up this morning. It was SO sympathetic towards the poor poor grandfather. And Gayle King saying he never should have been charged?!?!? Did she see that idiot stick his head out the window? Hold that baby out that window 11 floors up for 30 seconds, with ONE HAND?! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Yes, I'm fired up!

At this point, I hope the prosecutor rejects the plea or requires an admission of guilt, at the least; and that the judge dismisses the civil lawsuit. That would be the only way to shut the spin down.

BBM
GK is getting that “god complex”..
In example her Kobe rape remarks post his death
Now this.,,.smh.

MOO

 

[mheido67]

Something else, if he honestly thought there was glass in the window, he wouldn't have immediately computed her falling to her death. He would have been confused and thought she had fallen INSIDE the window onto the floor. It would have taken a second for it to register. He immediately knew what happened because he knew there wasn't glass.

But that's exactly what he claimed. He said he looked down at the deck because he assumed she had fallen between the window and the railing and that's when he saw her falling to the pier below. It would only have taken a fraction of a second for him to look down, not she her at the floor and see her outside the window falling to the pier.

Whether he thought the window was closed or not is basically irrelevant. Any reasonable person walking up to that window and standing in front of it, their head mear inches from where the glass would have been, would observe that there was no glass. To a reasonable person an open window is clear and apparent and the danger of leaning out of it or holding something out of it is clear and apparent, not hidden.

 

[gitana1]

BBM


That's the weird part to me. If he's going to try to push that version, well even if you did think that there was glass in the window, glass pops out and breaks. Why would you just lean a toddler against a glass pane 11 stories up without making sure it was secure first?

What’s weird to me is how a person thinks you can stick your head through glass and look around. Because that’s what he did.

 

[mheido67]

Something else, if he honestly thought there was glass in the window, he wouldn't have immediately computed her falling to her death. He would have been confused and thought she had fallen INSIDE the window onto the floor. It would have taken a second for it to register. He immediately knew what happened because he knew there wasn't glass.

But that's exactly what he claimed. He said he looked down at the deck because he assumed she had fallen between the window and the railing and that's when he saw her falling to the pier below. It would only have taken a fraction of a second for him to look down, not she her at the floor and see her outside the window falling to the pier.

Whether he thought the window was closed or not is basically irrelevant. Any reasonable person walking up to that window and standing in front of it, their head mear inches from where the glass would have been, would observe that there was no glass. To a reasonable person an open window is clear and apparent and the danger of leaning out of it or holding something out of it is clear and apparent, not hidden.

 

[Chewy]

But that's exactly what he claimed. He said he looked down at the deck because he assumed she had fallen between the window and the railing and that's when he saw her falling to the pier below. It would only have taken a fraction of a second for him to look down, not she her at the floor and see her outside the window falling to the pier.

Whether he thought the window was closed or not is basically irrelevant. Any reasonable person walking up to that window and standing in front of it, their head mear inches from where the glass would have been, would observe that there was no glass. To a reasonable person an open window is clear and apparent and the danger of leaning out of it or holding something out of it is clear and apparent, not hidden.

I didn't know he said that but I don't believe him. He immediately collapsed to his knees when he dropped her. He didn't bend over to look for her on the floor.

And I agree. I personally think (as I have stated before many times) that he was drawn directly to the window because it was the only one open. And that he picked her up to show her out the widow because it WAS open.

Maybe she normally was a very calm baby that would relax but this time she got frightened about it. And so she wiggled and he dropped her.

But it's very obvious to most of us I think that he 100 percent knew the window was open.

 

[Stinalyn]

I am absolutely horrified that this is the way the criminal portion of this case is going to be resolved.
There is no justice for Chloe in this outcome.

He has absolutely zero consequences for his actions. He doesn't even have to admit what he did. WTF??
Probation in Indiana?
Being managed/ supervised by the authorities in PR?
What a joke!
He will be able to continue his drinking and reckless behavior without missing a beat. (IMO/Alleged/unproven,etc)
In fact, he is probably better off financially these days, thanks to all those grubby "givememoney" accounts the family set up.
IMO
And please don't tell me how he is suffering enough after the horrible loss of his step-"granddaughter". I don't buy anything this man is selling.
I have not seen any behavior on his part to suggest he has one iota of remorse. All we got from him were fake tears and histrionics on camera at strategic moments, smug indifference the rest of the time, and a whole bunch of lies and changing stories designed to cover his fat (IMO) *advertiser censored*.
I know I sound angry, and it's because I am!!
It is very, very hard to watch a scene unfolding where you KNOW there is so much more to the story, but you are helpless to do anything to change it.
I was praying that PR Prosecutors would see this for what I believe it is, and take a deeper look at this tragedy and the players involved.
But, instead, a plea bargain has been struck --a flimsy piece of paper which magically makes everything OK and closes the door to any chance that SA will ever be held accountable for his actions by the courts.
I do, however, believe in the Universal Laws which govern our existence, and in Karma.
I don't think SA will be able to so easily escape whatever Karmic Events might now be coming his way, set in motion by his actions, but that's just my opinion.
If I believed this were an accident, I would feel differently but IMO he absolutely got away with murder and that sends a chill down my spine.
***All of the above is MOO, JMO and not meant offend anyone (except SA )
***I am admittedly overly emotional about this case

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I didn't know he said that but I don't believe him. He immediately collapsed to his knees when he dropped her. He didn't bend over to look for her on the floor.

And I agree. I personally think (as I have stated before many times) that he was drawn directly to the window because it was the only one open. And that he picked her up to show her out the widow because it WAS open.

Maybe she normally was a very calm baby that would relax but this time she got frightened about it. And so she wiggled and he dropped her.

But it's very obvious to most of us I think that he 100 percent knew the window was open.

There were reports that SA had actually exclaimed, "I dropped my child!" He knew that Chloe hadn't fallen onto the floor. He dropped her out the window 11 stories above the concrete dock

 

[10ofRods]

At least he's acknowledging his tremendous error and his guilt.

Grandfather of toddler who died in cruise ship fall to plead guilty

He's going to plead guilty, as he should. The more ethical move on this part (and of course, it puts a big kabash on the family's civil suit).

 

[Wehwalt]

I am absolutely horrified that this is the way the criminal portion of this case is going to be resolved.
There is no justice for Chloe in this outcome.

He has absolutely zero consequences for his actions. He doesn't even have to admit what he did. WTF??
Probation in Indiana?
Being managed/ supervised by the authorities in PR?
What a joke!

The probation would be managed locally in Indiana. There's an interstate compact allowing probation supervision to be transferred with the consent of both states because these situations, with an out-of-stater committing an offense, do arise, and it's impractical to supervise from out of state. And yes, Puerto Rico can be part of an interstate compact.

 

[Chewy]

There were reports that SA had actually exclaimed, "I dropped my child!" He knew that Chloe hadn't fallen onto the floor. He dropped her out the window 11 stories above the concrete dock

Exactly. Then he said "I thought there was glass." Reminded me of when someone calls 911 after arriving on a murder scene and immediately begins "alibing' themselves on the phone call. "I just got home from work 3 minutes ago and my wife is dead" instead of "Send help my wife is dead."

He immediately knew what happened. There wasn't a moment of delay where he'd be in total shock and confusion saying things like "what happened? what happened?" That's because he knew what happened the minute he lost his grip on her.

 

[mheido67]

I didn't know he said that but I don't believe him. He immediately collapsed to his knees when he dropped her. He didn't bend over to look for her on the floor.

And I agree. I personally think (as I have stated before many times) that he was drawn directly to the window because it was the only one open. And that he picked her up to show her out the widow because it WAS open.

Maybe she normally was a very calm baby that would relax but this time she got frightened about it. And so she wiggled and he dropped her.

But it's very obvious to most of us I think that he 100 percent knew the window was open.

I disagree. When she falls out of view you see his head move forward before he falls and goes out of view behind the bartenders and other passengers at the Squezze Bar.

 

[loveandhugs]

I am absolutely horrified that this is the way the criminal portion of this case is going to be resolved.
There is no justice for Chloe in this outcome.

He has absolutely zero consequences for his actions. He doesn't even have to admit what he did. WTF??
Probation in Indiana?
Being managed/ supervised by the authorities in PR?
What a joke!
He will be able to continue his drinking and reckless behavior without missing a beat. (IMO/Alleged/unproven,etc)
In fact, he is probably better off financially these days, thanks to all those grubby "givememoney" accounts the family set up.
IMO
And please don't tell me how he is suffering enough after the horrible loss of his step-"granddaughter". I don't buy anything this man is selling.
I have not seen any behavior on his part to suggest he has one iota of remorse. All we got from him were fake tears and histrionics on camera at strategic moments, smug indifference the rest of the time, and a whole bunch of lies and changing stories designed to cover his fat (IMO) *advertiser censored*.
I know I sound angry, and it's because I am!!
It is very, very hard to watch a scene unfolding where you KNOW there is so much more to the story, but you are helpless to do anything to change it.
I was praying that PR Prosecutors would see this for what I believe it is, and take a deeper look at this tragedy and the players involved.
But, instead, a plea bargain has been struck --a flimsy piece of paper which magically makes everything OK and closes the door to any chance that SA will ever be held accountable for his actions by the courts.
I do, however, believe in the Universal Laws which govern our existence, and in Karma.
I don't think SA will be able to so easily escape whatever Karmic Events might now be coming his way, set in motion by his actions, but that's just my opinion.
If I believed this were an accident, I would feel differently but IMO he absolutely got away with murder and that sends a chill down my spine.
***All of the above is MOO, JMO and not meant offend anyone (except SA )
***I am admittedly overly emotional about this case

I am also emotional about this case. Your post says exactly how I feel. Poor Chloe her life doesn’t seem to matter to this family, only protecting that one that is responsible for her death, which was not an accident, no matter how they want to spin it.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I am absolutely horrified that this is the way the criminal portion of this case is going to be resolved.
There is no justice for Chloe in this outcome.

He has absolutely zero consequences for his actions. He doesn't even have to admit what he did. WTF??
Probation in Indiana?
Being managed/ supervised by the authorities in PR?
What a joke!
He will be able to continue his drinking and reckless behavior without missing a beat. (IMO/Alleged/unproven,etc)
In fact, he is probably better off financially these days, thanks to all those grubby "givememoney" accounts the family set up.
IMO
And please don't tell me how he is suffering enough after the horrible loss of his step-"granddaughter". I don't buy anything this man is selling.
I have not seen any behavior on his part to suggest he has one iota of remorse. All we got from him were fake tears and histrionics on camera at strategic moments, smug indifference the rest of the time, and a whole bunch of lies and changing stories designed to cover his fat (IMO) *advertiser censored*.
I know I sound angry, and it's because I am!!
It is very, very hard to watch a scene unfolding where you KNOW there is so much more to the story, but you are helpless to do anything to change it.
I was praying that PR Prosecutors would see this for what I believe it is, and take a deeper look at this tragedy and the players involved.
But, instead, a plea bargain has been struck --a flimsy piece of paper which magically makes everything OK and closes the door to any chance that SA will ever be held accountable for his actions by the courts.
I do, however, believe in the Universal Laws which govern our existence, and in Karma.
I don't think SA will be able to so easily escape whatever Karmic Events might now be coming his way, set in motion by his actions, but that's just my opinion.
If I believed this were an accident, I would feel differently but IMO he absolutely got away with murder and that sends a chill down my spine.
***All of the above is MOO, JMO and not meant offend anyone (except SA )
***I am admittedly overly emotional about this case

ITA This post hit me in my heart.

 

[mheido67]

There were reports that SA had actually exclaimed, "I dropped my child!" He knew that Chloe hadn't fallen onto the floor. He dropped her out the window 11 stories above the concrete dock

From the time she left his grasp to when she hit the pier was roughly 3 seconds. He didn't think she was at his feet on the deck for three seconds. He thought that for a fraction of a second before he realized she was actually falling outside the ship. So she falls, he looks, sees her outside the windows falling and falls to the deck as he watches her. There really isn't anything incompatable with the video about this. It was while he was laying on the deck after she was already on the pier that he was reported as saying he had dropped his baby. Many people here were obsessed with the fact that SA didn't reach for her out the window or stretch his body out the window grasping for her. Well, if he thought she fell inside the ship that would explain why he didn't reach out the window, no?

 

[Chewy]

I disagree. When she falls out of view you see his head move forward before he falls and goes out of view behind the bartenders and other passengers at the Squezze Bar.

Which clip is that? And why didn't he lean OUT the window? The reason I don't believe him is that if he honestly thought the glass was there, simultaeously he'd have to register two different things which would be the glass disappearing AND Chloe falling. I can't even comprehend the amount of shock and panic that would go through someone's brain at that point. He wouldn't have immediately known that there wasn't glass. He wouldn't say "I thought there was glass." or "I thought there was a window."

Think about it. If he honestly thought there were glass there and he was letting her beat against the glass in the window and then she fell, wouldn't the immediate reaction be that the glass fell out of the window? That she pushed the glass out of the window?

It happened too fast for him to process the glass disappearing, her falling and the idea of him just killing his granddaughter for him to be able to immediately process that he'd made a mistake and the window was open.

The brain doesn't work that way. Especially not when someone is in shock.

 

[Wicked Strong]

The lawsuit is based on the cruise ship faulty windows resulting in Chloe's death. MW has repeatedly said the window safety must be addressed to prevent more children from injury. He has even went as far to say they do not meet standard window safety. I've have searched the internet for any thing that says what industry standard for cruise ship windows are and haven't come up with anything. I don't believe there is an actual standard for cruise ship windows. In the media thread, there is this which explains RCCL policies. IMO the judge in the civil case will consider this as an important part of whether this cruise ship windows are a safety fault. If the case is not dismissed, then certainly the lawyers for RCCL will bring this into their defense.

Safety & Security onboard Our Cruises | Royal Caribbean Cruises

"All of our ships are designed and operated in compliance with the strict requirements of the International Maritime Organization, the UN agency that sets global standards for the safety and operation of cruise ships, codified in the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) Convention. Safety-related regulations are rigorous – and we often go above and beyond what is required; for example, carrying backup mechanical, navigational and safety provisions.

In addition, our vessels, regardless of where they sail in the world, comply with the U.S. Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act (CVSSA) requirements, including railing heights, access control, closed circuit TV, medical preparedness, crime allegation reporting and crew training. Our own requirements generally exceed those specified within the CVSSA. We work closely with regulatory authorities to improve safety laws, and regularly participate in discussions and studies to inform legislators of current practices and offer our perspective on regulations and standards to assure safety.

Flag State authorities and other maritime safety regulatory bodies, such as the U.S. Coast Guard, from each country our ships visit also regularly inspect our ships. Their examinations focus on life-saving equipment and safety and environmental protection items and these officials have the authority to prevent our ships from sailing if we fail to adhere to regulations. In addition to these inspections, ongoing system of internal as well as external (independent) marine expert audits also helps us remain vigilant, safely
...
https://www.congress.gov/111/plaws/publ207/PLAW-111publ207.pdf


International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS), 1974

 

[mheido67]

Which clip is that? And why didn't he lean OUT the window? The reason I don't believe him is that if he honestly thought the glass was there, simultaeously he'd have to register two different things which would be the glass disappearing AND Chloe falling. I can't even comprehend the amount of shock and panic that would go through someone's brain at that point. He wouldn't have immediately known that there wasn't glass. He wouldn't say "I thought there was glass." or "I thought there was a window."

Think about it. If he honestly thought there were glass there and he was letting her beat against the glass in the window and then she fell, wouldn't the immediate reaction be that the glass fell out of the window? That she pushed the glass out of the window?

It happened too fast for him to process the glass disappearing, her falling and the idea of him just killing his granddaughter for him to be able to immediately process that he'd made a mistake and the window was open.

The brain doesn't work that way. Especially not when someone is in shock.

He didn't lean OUT the window because he didn't think she was outside the window. It's quite simple really. Again, all this transpired in 3 seconds. If you want to quibble about what words he would have said once the full gravity of what had happened dawned on him in the following moments well I don't think arguing what someone in shock should have said is really worth it.

 

[Chewy]

He didn't lean OUT the window because he didn't think she was outside the window. It's quite simple really. Again, all this transpired in 3 seconds. If you want to quibble about what words he would have said once the full gravity of what had happened dawned on him in the following moments well I don't think arguing what someone in shock should have said is really worth it.

I think it has a lot to do with it. And you are rationalizing and talking out of both sides of your mouth. You state this happened in 3 seconds So again if he HONESTLY thought the glass was there, his immediate reaction would be which of the following: "oh my god I made a horrible mistake and the glass wasn't there" or "the glass fell out!"

It's clear he knew the glass wasn't there. No one who honestly thought one thing could do a complete reversal in a matter of seconds like that. Think of a situation where you thought your child was behind you and you suddenly realize it's not your child it's another child. It takes 3 seconds alone JUST to realize you made a mistake. It takes way longer for your brain to reboot and figure out what's going on.

You are acting like him knowing he killed her in 3 seconds is the same thing as him going from "glass is there, I'll let Chloe beat on the glass" to "she fell" to "the glass isn't there" to "the glass fell out" to "the glass didn't fall out" to "oh my god I made a mistake there was never glass in the window" according to your count in 3 seconds.

Not possible.