IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

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Excellent points. I mentioned this earlier as well. If the whole point of the Weignand's lawsuit is to "protect other children" then a mandate in changes on the way windows are designed for cruise ships would be the way to go. But if they are asking for a pay out, doesn't that actually hurt the ability of the cruise ship to make improvements? They would be taking money out of the budget.

The point of punitive damages is to hurt the company. Corporations are in business for one thing, to make money. Lawsuits that result in huge damages hurt the bottom line and avoiding them is an incentive to corporations to be proactive about addressing dangers associated with their products. I don’t recall the details but there was a famous case involving a company whose execs decided that fixing all the dangerous products would cost them more than having to pay an amount of damages they were willing to bear for the small number of products that would actually fail and hurt people. If you just make RCCL pay to fix the windows, a relatively small sum, what incentive do they have to proactively address other dangerous conditions before someone gets hurt? Disclaimer: I don’t believe these windows are a danger and don’t think RCCL is at fault here.
 
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The point of punitive damages is to hurt the company. Corporations are in business for one thing, to make money. Lawsuits that result in huge damages hurt the bottom line and avoiding them is an incentive to corporations to be proactive about addressing dangers associated with their products. I don’t recall the details but there was a famous case involving a company whose execs decided that fixing all the dangerous products would cost them more than having to pay an amount of damages they were willing to bear for the small number of products that would actually fail and hurt people. If you just make RCCL pay to fix the windows, a relatively small sum, what incentive do they have to proactively address other dangerous conditions before someone gets hurt? Disclaimer: I don’t believe these windows are a danger and don’t think RCCL is at fault here.


Except there is NOTHING to fix. Windows are just fine, as long as stupidity doesn't run rampant on the ship.
* I see you agree, just adding to it :) *
 
Fact is that most cruise ships have windows that open, so it's not like RCCL has ships more dangerous than other cruise lines. Millions of people around the world travel on these ships day after day, and this is the only case I've heard where someone "accidentally" lifted an infant up over a railing and dropped them out an open window which they thought was closed. It's not like there has been a groundswell of anger that RCCL should have known about this danger, and were therefore responsible for the lack of safety enhancements.

I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that the family is far less concerned with whether every cruise ship retrofits their vessels to have windows that cannot open, and more focused on getting a settlement out of RCCL. Winkleman is not doing his song & dance for nothing. If the family wanted an industry wide change, their efforts would be directed towards other avenues, rather than a lawsuit against RCCL.


BBM. I agree with all of your post. But especially the bolded. I think this is what rubs people the wrong way about the entire case. Using the death of your child as a sort of trump card in a lawsuit when the truth is they just want money and a lot of it.

Had the lawsuit gone down quietly they certainly would have gotten a payout in a settlement. But this grandstanding, when done on the back of a child's death, is unpalatable. So their sympathy is fading fast.
 
Except there is NOTHING to fix. Windows are just fine, as long as stupidity doesn't run rampant on the ship.
* I see you agree, just adding to it :) *

But there's the rub. If stupidity does run rampant on a ship (or in any scenario) when does it then become management's responsibility?

Example benches in a park used to be a flat bench. But then homeless drug addicts started sleeping on them. (not saying all homeless are drug addicts btw) if after a while this created a danger for people walking through the park, does it then become park management's responsibility? Most people would say yes.

But what about a homeless person sleeping on the bench in below freezing weather and nearly dying? Does it then become management's responsibility? Yes. That's why most parks have changed their benches so that people can't lie down on them but just sit on them.


Another example. A friend of mine owns a cottage in Cape Cod that he rents out for the summers. He starting working with an AIRBNB marketer. They convinced him to accept dogs because lots of people who come there are huge dog fans. He said Ok and this guy came (firefighter from Boston) with his wife and two kids. They bought a puppy while they were in Provincetown and left the puppy uncaged for an entire day in the cottage with no air conditioning. Of course the poor puppy destroyed all the beds and even worse almost died from the heat

Even though all the other dog owners were responsible we had to say no, to any more renters with dogs. We stated on the AIRBNB Unfortunately we can vet you as a tenant but not as a responsible pet owner. If an industry starts to see issues showing up with reckless caregivers of children, they have a responsibility to protect the child as a passenger. Not coddle to the paying customer alone.
 
.... could the jury find that the window are not safe enough, but find there should be no dollar amount given. Maybe only ask RCCL to paste a small notice that this window can be opened? After all, isn't this what Wiegand's originally wanted to warn people. ...
@Wicked Strong :) bbm sbm
BBM 1. If civil jury in wrongful case finds the windows are "not safe enough" no, cannot ask/tell RCL what to do to remedy. Here, civil jury choices (somewhat oversimplified) are --
a) RCL was negligent in window design/construction/maintenance, and RCL's negligence was the proximate cause of Chloe's death. Then jury determines amt of $$$ damages (if any) for her death.

b) RCL was negligent in window design/construction/maintenance, but there was an intervening action by SA, whose negligence superceded RCL's (lesser) negligence and was the proximate cause of her death, so no $$$ damages.
c) RCL was not negligent in window design/construction/maintenance, so no $$$ damages.

BBM 2. If parents say they wanted to warn ppl about ship window dangers, is filing lawsuit the most effective method for trying to achieve that? Should we take their stmt at face value? Their Complaint asked for money damages. Do we believe parents’ words:
--- they utter in interviews/articles, saying they want safer ships, or
--- in their Complaint, asking for $$$?
jmo
 
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Fact is that most cruise ships have windows that open, so it's not like RCCL has ships more dangerous than other cruise lines. Millions of people around the world travel on these ships day after day, and this is the only case I've heard where someone "accidentally" lifted an infant up over a railing and dropped them out an open window which they thought was closed. It's not like there has been a groundswell of anger that RCCL should have known about this danger, and were therefore responsible for the lack of safety enhancements.

I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that the family is far less concerned with whether every cruise ship retrofits their vessels to have windows that cannot open, and more focused on getting a settlement out of RCCL. Winkleman is not doing his song & dance for nothing. If the family wanted an industry wide change, their efforts would be directed towards other avenues, rather than a lawsuit against RCCL.
Very well said. I’m in total agreement. This family is totally disingenuous. This lawsuit is, and always has been, about money.
IMO, they hoped to prevail upon public sympathy and force RCL into an early settlement, especially considering the nature of the incident and the age of the victim. Hence the media appearances and the public accusations against the cruise line.
 
But there's the rub. If stupidity does run rampant on a ship (or in any scenario) when does it then become management's responsibility?

Example benches in a park used to be a flat bench. But then homeless drug addicts started sleeping on them. (not saying all homeless are drug addicts btw) if after a while this created a danger for people walking through the park, does it then become park management's responsibility? Most people would say yes.

But what about a homeless person sleeping on the bench in below freezing weather and nearly dying? Does it then become management's responsibility? Yes. That's why most parks have changed their benches so that people can't lie down on them but just sit on them.


Another example. A friend of mine owns a cottage in Cape Cod that he rents out for the summers. He starting working with an AIRBNB marketer. They convinced him to accept dogs because lots of people who come there are huge dog fans. He said Ok and this guy came (firefighter from Boston) with his wife and two kids. They bought a puppy while they were in Provincetown and left the puppy uncaged for an entire day in the cottage with no air conditioning. Of course the poor puppy destroyed all the beds and even worse almost died from the heat

Even though all the other dog owners were responsible we had to say no, to any more renters with dogs. We stated on the AIRBNB Unfortunately we can vet you as a tenant but not as a responsible pet owner. If an industry starts to see issues showing up with reckless caregivers of children, they have a responsibility to protect the child as a passenger. Not coddle to the paying customer alone.

In one of the earlier threads, I actually did the math. More than 20 MILLION people have sailed the ships with windows of this design, and nobody had EVER gone out one of them until now. IMO, this does NOT then become "management's responsibility." It was the reckless action of one man. However, if the family sees any money at all from this lawsuit, I fear the instances of children being "accidentally" injured on cruise ships will see a sharp rise.
 
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In one of the earlier threads, I actually did the math. More than 20 MILLION people have sailed the ships with windows of this design, and nobody had EVER gone out one of them until now. IMO, this does NOT then become "management's responsibility." It was the reckless action of one man. However, if the family sees any money at all from this lawsuit, I fear the instances of children being "accidentally" injured on cruise ships will see a sharp rise.

That's interesting because I watch dateline a lot and I've seen multiple episodes of people being murdered on Cruise ships. Apparently if the boat is heading toward Mexico it's difficult to get cooperation. This particular cruise was in PR so it's different.

If you are talking about people being thrown out that exact type of window ok. But to suggest that out of 20 million people there have never been safety issues where a passenger (in this case Chloe) is hurt by another passenger (SA) that's ridiculous.

Cruise Ship Deaths and Disappearances: a Honeymooner Vanishes Overboard and Other Mysteries

This study shows that there 663 injuries in a 3 year period on one cruise ship with a load of 719 passengers per day.

Passenger accidents and injuries reported during 3 years on a cruise ship. - PubMed - NCBI
 
That's interesting because I watch dateline a lot and I've seen multiple episodes of people being murdered on Cruise ships. Apparently if the boat is heading toward Mexico it's difficult to get cooperation. This particular cruise was in PR so it's different.

If you are talking about people being thrown out that exact type of window ok. But to suggest that out of 20 million people there have never been safety issues where a passenger (in this case Chloe) is hurt by another passenger (SA) that's ridiculous.

But supposedly we are not talking about an Intentional act or Murder here, correct? Obviously people have gone overboard on ships. By an act or murder or suicide perhaps. But this was..........neither, right? It was an "accident" caused by the negligence of the ship. According to the lawsuit. RCCL was responsible for the safety of their passengers, and having a window that opens was clearly unsafe......so say the parents and the person directly involved in Chloe going overboard.

You've never seen a case like this on Dateline, but thanks to the family's persistence, someday you may.
 
But supposedly we are not talking about an Intentional act or Murder here, correct? Obviously people have gone overboard on ships. By an act or murder or suicide perhaps. But this was..........neither, right? It was an "accident" caused by the negligence of the ship. According to the lawsuit. RCCL was responsible for the safety of their passengers, and having a window that opens was clearly unsafe......so say the parents and the person directly involved in Chloe going overboard.

You've never seen a case like this on Dateline, but thanks to the family's persistence, someday you may.


Well look at what you are saying you can see the potential for children to be harmed on a cruise, then RCCL and all companies should notice this as well. The management has a responsibility to the children that are their passengers. I do understand what you are saying and in fact Ross Harris actually looked up cruises before he left his son in the car. I always thought he was considering throwing his son overboard.
 
If these small windows are dangerous, what about all the balconies on a ship?

This open window was very high, way above the reach of a toddler. An older child would have needed chairs and a table to climb onto in trying to reach this open window. Chloe was too small to have reached the window even this way. The only way Chloe was able to see out this window was to be held up by an adult, her grandfather in this case. Holding her with only one arm was SA’s first mistake.

IMO, RCCL did their due diligence in their ships designed in the manner this one was. The windows close to the floor do not open. A safety precaution for children of all ages.

When designing anything, if we sat around trying to figure out a way to make each item 100% safe proof, we would still be in the dark ages. There will always be that person who pushes the limit to do the unbelievable dumbest, stupidest, or unimaginable act!
 
SA's Plea. Binding When?
{{ETA: See also @Wehwalt & excellent explanation a few posts up}}

From (cbsnews) David Benaud's Twitter, posted last night:
Statement from Puerto Rico's Attorney General Dennise N. Longo Quiñones: “The Puerto Rico Department of Justice has diligently prosecuted the charges against Salvatore Anello in order to bring justice to Chloe’s unfortunate death..."
"... The defendant filed a motion yesterday afternoon expressing his intent to plead guilty and asking for a hearing date where the Court may accept his change of plea. Anello’s decision to so proceed is wholly within his discretion..."

"...and will become binding only upon his appearing before the Court to voluntarily plead guilty.” bbm
Not clear to me what content, if any, from PR AG's ^ stmt DB may have omitted.

Changing his plea to guilty is not the same as a plea deal. But likely a deal is on the table if he changes his plea to guilty.
 
Spot on. Great breakdown of his statement. Like you point out, his very first point is the apology for not speaking to people in the hall? That starts the doubt-alarms ringing for people with experience in analyzing statements. Like I said yesterday, if he had simply made no statement, he would have garnered a modicum of respect for the perception that he was taking a semblance of responsibility, but instead he's just playing the good guy who made a tragic error in perception, when in fact at that moment he was a horrible person who did the unthinkable with a helpless baby. He may be a gregarious person most of the time but something happened during these 40 seconds that makes no sense without some kind of explanation such as intoxication or mental health lapse.

Or intent.
 
<modsnip>when you have over ten years of neurological research and have a limit of study that includes over 40,000 people (not typical statistics studies that generally will include a study base of about 1,000 people)

Google "limits of study" for more info on that..

Yes it is neurologically impossible. Look up error study on mistake and see it.

It is neurologically impossible for him to have had that cognitive reaction. The only way it would have happened that fast is if he constantly dropped small children out of a window.

The immediate emotional reaction would override the cognitive understanding. He would be standing there blank and confused for at least 20-30 seconds.


His immediate comprehension would indicate that this is a common occurrence so he would react in an almost preprogrammed way. For example the way Navy Seals react to crisis. They are trained to bypass that.

No normal human being would react in the way he did unless he knew the window was already open. Which is what I think happened. Which is why I say he might have had a drink and made a careless mistake.

But anyway........let's go back to your expertise. I'm interested! :)

This actually makes sense to me, and appreciate your input on this.

Sadly it appears there will be no trial... i.e., no witnesses, no evidence, no expert witnesses, etc. So, ultimately, I’m assuming, no truth.

If this is what happens, what can I say, or any of us who care about justice in this world, especially for children like little Chloe. Our system of justice is totally broken if those who commit injustices like this aren’t held fully accountable. And is especially true when that injustice is committed against a child who is completely dependent on the defendant to protect them. JMO
 
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Using This Written Statement?
There is a ~ 1 1/2 page typed stmt, written in first person but not signed, not dated, not notarized, a stmt a cbsnews story attributes it to SA.*

I wonder if there's any chance of this stmt, purportedly SA's, being used in either the upcoming NegHom hearing or the civil trial?


* A scrbd.com pdf/image of the typed stmt is linked in cbsnews.com Feb 26 story, which says "In a statement to "CBS This Morning," he said..."
Man will plead guilty in granddaughter's cruise ship death to "end part of this nightmare"
 
Any thoughts about this smug assertion?...
....Winkleman said Anello’s proposed guilty plea in Chloe’s death would have “little or no effect at all on the civil lawsuit,” noting that Anello is not a party to that case. “He’s not a party to that case and therefore it is not relevant,” Winkleman said.
 
Any thoughts about this smug assertion?...
....Winkleman said Anello’s proposed guilty plea in Chloe’s death would have “little or no effect at all on the civil lawsuit,” noting that Anello is not a party to that case. “He’s not a party to that case and therefore it is not relevant,” Winkleman said.

What can he say? Admit that SA just made his civil case incredibly difficult if not impossible to win? SA just took the blame for Chloe’s death. How much was SA to blame as opposed to how much is RCCL to blame? Did the window cause the death? Did SA cause the death? Was it a combination of the window and SA? How much is each to blame? What percentage was each at fault?
 
Any thoughts about this smug assertion?...
....Winkleman said Anello’s proposed guilty plea in Chloe’s death would have “little or no effect at all on the civil lawsuit,” noting that Anello is not a party to that case. “He’s not a party to that case and therefore it is not relevant,” Winkleman said.

Winkleman is blowing smoke. Believe me, this entire lawsuit is going to fizzle away to oblivion. The live video evidence is absolutely a slam dunk.

SA leans out window, picks up Chloe, heaves her over the guardrail and out the window. Whoopsie Baby! It is beyond belief to watch every single moment of that depravity.

Even worse, SA with the plea, isn't even going to jail. He can go back and slither around the mainland.
 
But there's the rub. If stupidity does run rampant on a ship (or in any scenario) when does it then become management's responsibility?

Example benches in a park used to be a flat bench. But then homeless drug addicts started sleeping on them. (not saying all homeless are drug addicts btw) if after a while this created a danger for people walking through the park, does it then become park management's responsibility? Most people would say yes.

But what about a homeless person sleeping on the bench in below freezing weather and nearly dying? Does it then become management's responsibility? Yes. That's why most parks have changed their benches so that people can't lie down on them but just sit on them.


Another example. A friend of mine owns a cottage in Cape Cod that he rents out for the summers. He starting working with an AIRBNB marketer. They convinced him to accept dogs because lots of people who come there are huge dog fans. He said Ok and this guy came (firefighter from Boston) with his wife and two kids. They bought a puppy while they were in Provincetown and left the puppy uncaged for an entire day in the cottage with no air conditioning. Of course the poor puppy destroyed all the beds and even worse almost died from the heat

Even though all the other dog owners were responsible we had to say no, to any more renters with dogs. We stated on the AIRBNB Unfortunately we can vet you as a tenant but not as a responsible pet owner. If an industry starts to see issues showing up with reckless caregivers of children, they have a responsibility to protect the child as a passenger. Not coddle to the paying customer alone.
Totally understand what you are saying, but if we focus on this incident and the facts surrounding it, they really don’t have a leg to stand on. People do stupid stuff every day. The totality of that act matters. The bench issue you bring up was an issue that was affecting a lot of people, there were complaints and so they did something to try to make it safer, but it wasn’t like one person was complaining, enough did that got their attention, so they did something to try remedy the issue. So did making the benches uncomfortable to sleep on stop the problem, I’m guessing enough that people felt safer. But, the truth is, someone could still sleep on the uncomfortable bench, they can’t control everything people do. If after making the bench uncomfortable and someone then deals with a person who doesn’t care and sleeps there anyway, is it still the managements fault?

The Airbnb dog issue. That’s a personal choice. If the owner decides no dogs because of an issue with a renter, he or she can do whatever they choose. I’ve stayed in Airbnb’s a lot, I have always been able to bring my dog. Irresponsible people are everywhere, renting to anyone holds some risk, dog or not. The fact is, people are more of a problem than a dog. I used to be a manager for an apartment building, the damage people caused apartments were way higher than animals.

This particular incident is not a common or even a rare occurrence. People are not lifting children to open windows because it’s really a dumb thing to do. They ask no one to do this in the terms. They put a railing there. They have taken steps to try to avoid this type of thing, but even with that, he did it.

At some point, people have to be responsible for their actions. Nothing is 100% safe. To predict what any dumb person will do is literally impossible. They can do whatever to those windows, but if another person with the mentality of grandpa comes on, it will not matter.

I’m all for making things safer, but I also need to be shown why it’s not safe or an issue. In this case, grandpa was the issue, but I doubt they will stop letting “elderly” people take cruises. As mentioned millions take cruises, many with kids, this has not happened before. People are not lifting their kids to windows, because the average sane person knows it’s dangerous. Do accidents happen on ships, of course, just like on land.
 
Using This Written Statement?
There is a ~ 1 1/2 page typed stmt, written in first person but not signed, not dated, not notarized, a stmt a cbsnews story attributes it to SA.*

I wonder if there's any chance of this stmt, purportedly SA's, being used in either the upcoming NegHom hearing or the civil trial?


* A scrbd.com pdf/image of the typed stmt is linked in cbsnews.com Feb 26 story, which says "In a statement to "CBS This Morning," he said..."
Man will plead guilty in granddaughter's cruise ship death to "end part of this nightmare"
If SA remains a non-party, it is hearsay, possibly usable as impeachment if he takes the stand.

I don't believe we will ever get that far.
 
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