IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[JerseySleuth17]

I watched the video yet again. While I agree that his right arm is pulled way back... I cannot see him holding anything in that hand. Doesn’t mean he isn’t... I just don’t see it.
But it certainly appears as though he’s only holding her with his left arm. Unbelievable.

Are you watching the side angle video or the La Comay video? I saw this on the La Comay video at about the 6:20 mark. If you can find the high definition version of that video it is more clear to see what is in his hand.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

I will try to find the version I am watching. Also sometime the video is more clear depending on what device you are watching it on. I will check tonight as it was on my home laptop.

 

[kay74]

You can't blame the cruiseline for this. It happened, they should tell him, they are sorry for this and let him go home to grieve. The cruiseline did not know he was going to do this.

 

[In vino veritas]

If you could post a screen cap of that I'd love to see it because I don't see how anyone can clearly see his right hand let alone that he was holding a phone in it. There are multiple people (bartender & other passengers) moving between SA and the camera. It may be the case that he was holding a camera but I don't see it. But perhaps that's why he switched her from his right side to his left. Do we know if he's left or right handed?

He has admitted in the interview with DB that he was holding her with one hand, he said because he was reaching for the glass with his right hand. So the fact that he was holding her with one hand is known and he has been asked about it.

But the video evidence actually negates his comment to DB. If he was reaching for the glass as he asserted his right arm would not be visible. It would be extended forward. And that is not the case at all!!

 

[mheido67]

But the video evidence actually negates his comment to DB. If he was reaching for the glass as he asserted his right arm would not be visible. It would be extended forward. And that is not the case at all!!

So where do people see SA’s right arm? Again, I’d love to see an image pointing out what people are seeing as his right arm because I don’t see it.

 

[Wehwalt]

Legal Question: RCCL would definitely want to take SA's deposition, to ask him under oath about all that happened and what he was thinking. What if he refuses? Can the civil court judge require him to sit for a deposition? What he says he is not a "party to the lawsuit" so he can't be compelled to sit for a deposition? If he is allowed to refuse a deposition and does so would that count against the plaintiff's case? Or can they then say "not our problem, he is not part of our case, our lawsuit has nothing to do with SA".

He can be subpoenaed under Fed. R. Civ. Proc. 45. A subpoena, properly served, compels him. After his criminal case is final, it does not look like he will have a Fifth Amendment privilege.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

If you could post a screen cap of that I'd love to see it because I don't see how anyone can clearly see his right hand let alone that he was holding a phone in it. There are multiple people (bartender & other passengers) moving between SA and the camera. It may be the case that he was holding a camera but I don't see it. But perhaps that's why he switched her from his right side to his left. Do we know if he's left or right handed?

He has admitted in the interview with DB that he was holding her with one hand, he said because he was reaching for the glass with his right hand. So the fact that he was holding her with one hand is known and he has been asked about it.

This is the version of the La Copay video I am watching -
Video shows heartbreaking moment grandfather lifts tot girl to window aboard cruise ship before she falls 150 feet to her death

Click on the video link in the article. I made the video full screen and watched it on a 12-inch laptop. It's possible bigger or smaller screens don't have the same definition to the video. A little after 6:20 minutes in is when you see his right arm move up holding something, then the right arm, still holding something (camera?) swings in front of him as if to take a picture and out the window CW goes. Imo he's definitely holding something. I realize it's distracting with the people walking in front of him, and I only noticed it after watching the video multiple times. Focus on the right side of his body near his head and you will see his arm come up.

 

[In vino veritas]

If you could post a screen cap of that I'd love to see it because I don't see how anyone can clearly see his right hand let alone that he was holding a phone in it. There are multiple people (bartender & other passengers) moving between SA and the camera. It may be the case that he was holding a camera but I don't see it. But perhaps that's why he switched her from his right side to his left. Do we know if he's left or right handed?

He has admitted in the interview with DB that he was holding her with one hand, he said because he was reaching for the glass with his right hand. So the fact that he was holding her with one hand is known and he has been asked about it.

But the video evidence actually negates his comment to DB. If he was reaching for the glass as he asserted his right arm would not be visible. It would be extended forward. And that is not the case at all!!

So where do people see SA’s right arm? Again, I’d love to see an image pointing out what people are seeing as his right arm because I don’t see it.

If you view the video from the side angle, you can see SA pulling his right arm back into the ship interior. It is not extended out, as it would be if he was trying to bang on the glass. However, I do not see anything in his right hand. Just the arm moving back.

 

[TristanP]

I guess my point was why take his word for it that it was accidental when it was just as likely that it was not. Could they not have arrested him right then and there until they had investigated further? Just questioning how it was handled.. Any feedback from attorneys? TIA

Not an attorney, but thinking/theorizing. Let’s use our imaginations and assume the window was large enough for an adult, and that it was an adult picked up and put on the ledge, who then fell to her death.

Do you (general you, not putting you on the spot Neesaki) think things would have been handled differently, and in what way?

To me it seems like something like that would have to immediately get treated like a crime until proven otherwise. Sure, it may have been an adventurous (stupid) person trying to get a good view or a selfie, but what if it was a fight between the two adults?

I would think drug/alcohol testing would need to be completed on both adults, and all witnesses in the immediate area separated, questioned, and all photos or videos obtained at the very least.

So it seems very reasonable that drug/alcohol testing should automatically be done on an adult even when it was a child who fell.

This incident has to be one of the most horrific events I’ve ever heard of. I hope that little Chloe thought she was having fun as she fell, since little kids are often tossed about in the air and they think it’s the best. I hope she didn’t feel any pain. I hope the people who witnessed it can be ok. I witnessed an incident where a drowning victim was pulled out of the ocean, and still have the image of his grey, lifeless body in my mind, as sharp as the day I saw it. (Fortunately, CPR saved him, but he was left largely paralyzed due to broken cervical vertebrae.)

I truly hope the cruise line fights this all the way and is legally declared to have no liability.

I don’t know if there’s any hope her family can ever mend their shattered lives. As angry as their lawsuit against the cruise line makes me, and as angry as “Grandpa’s” arrogant behavior makes me, I know they’re living with a void that can never be filled.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

I see some things were filed on February 26 in the case but haven’t seen them addressed here. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what was filed?

Wiegand et al v. Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. (1:19-cv-25100), Florida Southern District Court

 

[Lawsmygame2]

If he was drunk or under the influence would they have charged him with something more than negligent homicide?

I believe LE would have needed a warrant to compel SA to give a blood sample. Unlikely they would have convinced a court to issue a warrant since SA was not accused of doing anything that he was not legally allowed to do while drinking. My non-lawyer take anyway.

I don’t know how it is handled in PR, but here in the state I live they would not have to arrest SA in order to compel him to give a blood sample. They could obtain a search warrant to take his blood listing the underlying offense as probable negligent homicide. They would only have to have probable cause for the underlying offense in order to obtained the search warrant. Probable cause is a low standard that, given the incident and circumstances surrounding the incident, it would have easily been met. Just the fact that Chloe was held up to a window by an adult and the fact that she would not have been able to get to that window to fall out of it without the adult holding her up to the window would have met the probable cause for search warrant. JMO

 

[In vino veritas]

This is the version of the La Copay video I am watching -
Video shows heartbreaking moment grandfather lifts tot girl to window aboard cruise ship before she falls 150 feet to her death

Click on the video link in the article. I made the video full screen and watched it on a 12-inch laptop. It's possible bigger or smaller screens don't have the same definition to the video. A little after 6:20 minutes in is when you see his right arm move up holding something, then the right arm, still holding something (camera?) swings in front of him as if to take a picture and out the window CW goes. Imo he's definitely holding something. I realize it's distracting with the people walking in front of him, and I only noticed it after watching the video multiple times. Focus on the right side of his body near his head and you will see his arm come up.

I’m still having trouble seeing anything definitive in his right hand. I do suppose it’s possible he was trying to take a photo, but I would think the phone would have either fallen to the floor, or out the window and we would have heard about it in some capacity by now. However, the idea he was trying to take a photo has merit and would explain how this egregious incident occurred.
After all, shortly after Chloe’s death, RCCL removed two passengers from one of their ships after a passenger witnessed a young woman going OVER her balcony railing to stand on an outside tiny ledge while trying to get a selfie, assisted by a friend. The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me. And had she fallen to her death, her family would likely have sued the cruise line!!

 

[In vino veritas]

I see some things were filed on February 26 in the case but haven’t seen them addressed here. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what was filed?

Wiegand et al v. Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. (1:19-cv-25100), Florida Southern District Court

I see some things were filed on February 26 in the case but haven’t seen them addressed here. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what was filed?

Wiegand et al v. Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. (1:19-cv-25100), Florida Southern District Court

I believe it was the plaintiff’s response to RCL’s re-file of their Motion to Dismiss.
Fellow WS-er Kindred posted the full response several pages back on this thread.

 

[Lawsmygame2]

I believe it was the plaintiff’s response to RCL’s re-file of their Motion to Dismiss.
Fellow WS-er Kindred posted the full response several pages back on this thread.

I went back to try and find but couldn’t find it. If someone could post the links, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Wehwalt]

I don’t know how it is handled in PR, but here in the state I live they would not have to arrest SA in order to compel him to give a blood sample. They could obtain a search warrant to take his blood listing the underlying offense as probable negligent homicide. They would only have to have probable cause for the underlying offense in order to obtained the search warrant. Probable cause is a low standard that, given the incident and circumstances surrounding the incident, it would have easily been met. Just the fact that Chloe was held up to a window by an adult and the fact that she would not have been able to get to that window to fall out of it without the adult holding her up to the window would have met the probable cause for search warrant. JMO

Probable cause is also the standard for arrest. It would not surprise me to learn that there were consultations within the Puerto Rico police as to these very points, or even with a magistrate with the power to issue search/arrest warrants. One reason may be they do not have to prove intoxication to get a conviction, as shown by SA's willingness to plead guilty. I doubt voluntary intoxication would be a defense, either. Were there visible signs of intoxication?

And as PR investigates, of course, any alcohol in SA's body is breaking down, you have the victim's family demanding SA be given kid-glove treatment ... by the time you get your ducks in a row and SA forced to go to a place (probably the hospital) where blood can be drawn in a way that's going to be beyond challenge later, I'm not sure there would be much of use left.

So, I'm not actually surprised there was no blood drawn.

 

[Kindred]

The only thing on the calendar for the civil case is the telephone status conference that is still set for Wednesday, March 11, 2020 at 2:00 P.M. But I do have something else to share...

NEW DOCUMENT

PLAINTIFFS’ RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO DEFENDANT’S AMENDED MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION [D.E. 30]
Case 1:19-cv-25100-DLG Document 31
Entered on FLSD Docket 02/26/2020 22 PAGES

reponse to amended motion to dismiss.pdf

snipped by me


@Lawsmygame2 post number 697 on page 35 of this thread. see above

 

[oviedo]

I see some things were filed on February 26 in the case but haven’t seen them addressed here. Did I miss it? Does anyone know what was filed?

Wiegand et al v. Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. (1:19-cv-25100), Florida Southern District Court

We have a media thread for Chloe but it’s sometimes hard to find - it is always posted on the first page of every new thread though-
IN-Grandfather charged cruise ship death of Chloe Wiegand MEDIA TIMELINE NO DISCUSSION

 

[mheido67]

I’m still having trouble seeing anything definitive in his right hand. I do suppose it’s possible he was trying to take a photo, but I would think the phone would have either fallen to the floor, or out the window and we would have heard about it in some capacity by now. However, the idea he was trying to take a photo has merit and would explain how this egregious incident occurred.
After all, shortly after Chloe’s death, RCCL removed two passengers from one of their ships after a passenger witnessed a young woman going OVER her balcony railing to stand on an outside tiny ledge while trying to get a selfie, assisted by a friend. The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me. And had she fallen to her death, her family would likely have sued the cruise line!!

Have watched it now on my pc at full screen. On the camera angle from behind I see him switch CW from his right side to his left side. There is some movement around. Her head is clearly visible as is SA's. Then both bartenders move directly between SA and the camera and there is a passenger seated there as well. I just don't see his arm. And why, if he was going to take a selfie, would he move his arm back? And from the side view I see some movement of his right arm but I definitely don't see him raise it. In fact, from the side view I see the passenger who is seated at the bar with a white shirt on. He appears to have a white hat on. He's leaning on the bar and sits up like he's getting ready to stand right in the seconds before CW falls. Could it have been this that looks like SA's arm raising with something in it from the back angle?

In any event, if he has his phone in his hand he likely would have dropped it on the deck. I'm sure in some witness statement someone would have noticed a phone lying on the floor. Just really difficult to tell exactly what went on with that low video quality.

 

[loveandhugs]

Have watched it now on my pc at full screen. On the camera angle from behind I see him switch CW from his right side to his left side. There is some movement around. Her head is clearly visible as is SA's. Then both bartenders move directly between SA and the camera and there is a passenger seated there as well. I just don't see his arm. And why, if he was going to take a selfie, would he move his arm back? And from the side view I see some movement of his right arm but I definitely don't see him raise it. In fact, from the side view I see the passenger who is seated at the bar with a white shirt on. He appears to have a white hat on. He's leaning on the bar and sits up like he's getting ready to stand right in the seconds before CW falls. Could it have been this that looks like SA's arm raising with something in it from the back angle?

In any event, if he has his phone in his hand he likely would have dropped it on the deck. I'm sure in some witness statement someone would have noticed a phone lying on the floor. Just really difficult to tell exactly what went on with that low video quality.

If SA was reaching for his phone, though I cannot see it either, perhaps it was ringing, and he wasn’t expecting that.

 

[JerseySleuth17]

If SA was reaching for his phone, though I cannot see it either, perhaps it was ringing, and he wasn’t expecting that.

It is hard to tell, the only time I can really see pretty clearly what's going on is when I watch the video on a 12 inch laptop monitor. When I try to watch it full screen on a big monitor it's very blurry. But to me it seemed like he was trying to take a picture. It just really aggravates me that he is totally lying about the entire event. In his tv interview the interviewer basically asked him leading questions that he had CW in a "bear hug" which is completely false since at the time she fell he was only holding her with one hand. I would really love to be a fly on the wall in the houses of the other grandparents I can't imagine they are supporting him the way CW's parents are, imo. There is something very off about this guy.