IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

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Even in the photos you could easily see the difference between one open window and the ones that were closed. Not to mention the ocean breeze that would have made it apparent the window was open.

My opinion has always been that he held her up to an open window, knowing the window was open. Whether the purpose was for her to see outside, or to sit her on the rail, or something else, I believe he knew the window was open.
I totally agree. I feel this is such an obvious case. Cut and dry. Problem is social media. Reports go out and people read just the basic info then form their opinion but with blinders on. At first the headlines made me think she crawled out a window she was able to reach in a children’s playroom. It quickly became so different from that. Me being curious did research. Then realized the family’s story and attorneys story was BS. Common sense prevails in this situation. In conclusion I believe he knew the window was open. Original reports say he was playing with her in the open window. I’m sure the videos back that up.
 
the way i see it, this family has not endeared itself to the public with their accusations against the cruise ship-- they did not come across very well-- i see this as horrible judgment on the part of grandpa----and i think most people see it that way
That's your opinion. I don't agree. The local media in NW Indiana and Chicago suburbs sure support the family and their goal of ensuring child safety rather than the corporation. Experts are now weighing in and will continue to do so.

Glad I don't own the stock. It's been one scandal after another involving an incredible disregard for passenger safety.

JMO
‘Double devastation’: When kids die by accident, should caregivers be charged?
Others said the charges went too far.

In the case of children — who by nature are helpless, vulnerable and dependent upon their caregivers, said Peter Scharf, a public health criminologist at the Louisiana State University School of Public Health — there is often a desire to "blame someone, even if it's not legally appropriate."

"It's double devastation: the loss of a child, and now this."


"You have to know a little more about the case to really get inside the head of the prosecutors, but on the face of it, it seems like a problematic decision," Scharf said. "It's double devastation: the loss of a child, and now this."

Deadly accidents under the careful watch of loving caregivers are rare, but they do happen. A more frequent example: A parent who falsely remembers dropping their child off at daycare, unintentionally leaving the child to die strapped in their car seats as the temperature inside the vehicle rises.
 
Thanks. I found an old article with a little time info:

Toddler who died after falling on Royal Caribbean ship is South Bend officer’s daughter

"... The girl reportedly slipped from her grandfather’s arms and fell 150 feet before hitting the concrete below. Medics rushed the girl to the hospital around 4:30 p.m. She died a short time later. ..."

The grandfather's statements, or the attorney's, is that he thought the window was closed. I just wondered if darkness or glare from brightness contributed to the incident. The .au article states that alcohol was not a factor.
bbm
A lot of the original reports seemed pushed by the family and very biased imo. If there was no alcohol involved, why did Grampa refuse a breathalyzer?
 
I very much doubt that. He had to be sedated on scene. By the look of his past record safety just wasn't a word in his vocabulary. Reckless Endangerment appears to be a "Lifestyle" for this guy. Miracle he hasn't already "accidentally" killed someone via Vehicular Manslaughter.

People can be forcefully sedated if necessary just for 'losing it' and hysterically causing a ruckus.
The video might show how he acted before and after; and whether he knew the windows were open or closed.
Was he shouting at the staff, accusing them of opening a window purposefully just as he put Chloe through it, or on the ledge ?
SA's having to be sedated doesn't tell us very much ; imo.

Everything about this case stinks and overloads the hinky meter.
Why is the family pursuing a settlement when they know it was no one's fault except themselves ?

Yes,of course it may have been an accident.
But you don't accuse people you know did nothing wrong.
And the more you attack without cause (in this case the cruise line), the worse it makes you look.
Imo.

People have also killed for far less than what an imagined settlement from RCC would be.
It would be of interest to know what amount the family is seeking.
30 mil. ? 80 mil. ?

Does anyone know if RCC can counter sue for defamation and libel if nothing else ?
 
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There is a video done 3 years ago by a guest on the same boat (different trip), same deck along the window area (not sure if it's the exact same side as the incident occurred on but the deck is symmetrical so the other side would be the exactly the same). This video completely blows all the family's arguments out of the water.

1 - they claim that there was no way of knowing the window was open. Video you can clearly see even from a distance from the way the glass is tinted that the dark windows are glass and the open windows are dramatically lighter. Possibly at night, this might be difficult to see, but not on a sunny afternoon.

2 - that this was a "hazard located in a children's play area". While you can see a splash pad off to the left it's quite some distance from the windows. The windows are clearly in a seating/lounge area, and in fact, there are mostly adults relaxing here and hardly if any children playing because there's nothing to play on/with in the sheltered seating area.

3 - that she didn't "fall from his arms". the video turns to the side while in the window frame and you can see exactly how narrow the rail they claim he set her on is. There is no way any rational person would put a wobbly 2 year old on a rail like that and not hold onto them for fear of even just having a foot slip and fall down hurting herself on the rail itself. Claiming specifically that she didn't "fall from his arms" never really helped their case to begin with. They way they said it on tv, it sounds like they want you to believe he just set her there and let go to lean on the glass, expecting the glass to hold her up. Still highly irresponsible even if the window was closed.

4 - That she wanted to be "lifted so she could bang on the glass". The fact the video shows windows along the floor she was more than capable of banging on from floor level without being set on the rail also doesn't help their argument. Especially combined with the publicly released photos of her at the hockey rink, on the floor at the glass, not being held up by anyone. Why the sudden need to be held to bang on the glass if she never had to before?


Even with this video aside, the family basically shot their civil lawsuit in the foot by claiming she had been intentionally set on the railing. This clearly violates Royal Caribbean's guest conduct policy, last revised Nov 2018 prior to the incident. The policy that all guests receive a copy of clearly states on the top of Page 2:

"Unsafe Behavior: Sitting, standing, lying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers, or tampering with ship’s equipment, facilities or systems designed for guest safety is not permitted. Guests may not enter or access any area that is restricted and for the use of crew members. Any other unsafe behavior, including failure to follow security instructions, is not permitted."


They admit that they engaged in unsafe behavior in violation of the ship's rules of conduct. Even if you argue that they probably didn't read them, the ships always have a safety briefing before departure that includes things like evacuation information and warnings not to climb on rails because of risk of falling overboard.

This was definitely a tragedy, but the fact they were so willing to fly straight to the media and tell their story there but not give an official statement to investigators after the initial questions at the time of the incident raised huge red flags for me. Even if it was nothing more then a horrible accident, they went way to defensive and started threatening way to loudly they were going to sue way to fast.

jmho though
Excellent post. Sums up succinctly why the family's account never made a lick of sense to me, and why they sued the cruise line and ran to the media so very, very early (Trying to get Grandpa would be off the hook for what was clearly a very dangerous "peek outside" he was attempting to give this baby IMO ).
 
If mods reopened this thread, it wasn’t closed at family’s request.
So, arguing seemed to be the problem.
No responses to argumentative posts, no arguing. Post stays open. Takes 2 to argue. Hard to argue with yourself.
Gosh, I honestly don't remember any arguing at all.

Oh, wait..... (thinking.... ) Do you mean arguing by one member ? Ah, come to think about it, I might remember that. ; )
 
Excellent post. Sums up succinctly why the family's account never made a lick of sense to me, and why they sued the cruise line and ran to the media so very, very early (Trying to get Grandpa would be off the hook for what was clearly a very dangerous "peek outside" he was attempting to give this baby IMO ).
LBM
The first article when this story broke said that the family hired a lawyer well within 24 hours of the fall.
Who does that ?
Doing so made the public look askance at the parents as well.
And then those GMA interviews. Smh.
 
Just watching CBS coverage and the one policeman illustrates what he saw GP do after viewing the video. It's chilling.

According to this man, SA was balancing Chloe on the wooden railing, and apparently let his hands go open (having no grip on Chloe at all).

I know the excuse is that he thought there was glass there, but if there had been glass, Chloe's position would have had to be closer to SA, as he couldn't have leaned her forward. MOO.
 
I don’t feel PR LE is bowing to pressure to file charges, but certainly there may be pressure to investigate it more fully as criminal negligence given the finger being pointed at them, whereas otherwise it may have been ruled a tragic accident. Ultimately I know the decision to file charges is by LE and LE alone.

A prosecutor (D.A. or equivalent) files charges.
 
People can be forcefully sedated if necessary just for 'losing it' and hysterically causing a ruckus.
The video might show how he acted before and after; and whether he knew the windows were open or closed.
Was he shouting at the staff, accusing them of opening a window purposefully just as he put Chloe through it, or on the ledge ?
SA's having to be sedated doesn't tell us very much ; imo.

Everything about this case stinks and overloads the hinky meter.
Why is the family pursuing a settlement when they know it was no one's fault except themselves ?

Yes,of course it may have been an accident.
But you don't accuse people you know did nothing wrong.
And the more you attack without cause (in this case the cruise line), the worse it makes you look.
Imo.

People have also killed for far less than what an imagined settlement from RCC would be.
It would be of interest to know what amount the family is seeking.
30 mil. ? 80 mil. ?

Does anyone know if RCC can counter sue for defamation and libel if nothing else ?

Well I don't think they know that in the sense that "Grandpa is guilty" is stored in their head as a fact. People are really resistant to lots of knowledge (me in physics class for example).

But, accidents that are my fault are still my fault. Grandpa surely knew about gravity and height. If I am inattentive and run into someone in my car, it's my fault. If I forget that I'm driving a bigger/heavier car than usual - still my fault. If I forget to have my brakes serviced - still my fault. I could kill someone due to my own negligence, be told by my family that "Mom, it's not your fault!" and it could still be my fault, morally and legally.

You are absolutely right that this case totally overloads the hinky meter. RCC will probably try to be as quiet as possible in this one.

I think mom and dad (esp. mom) think this is someone else's fault. It's interesting that she's a lawyer and he's LE: they know the final determination of whose at fault is outside their own minds.
 
Just watching CBS coverage and the one policeman illustrates what he saw GP do after viewing the video. It's chilling.

According to this man, SA was balancing Chloe on the wooden railing, and apparently let his hands go open (having no grip on Chloe at all).

I know the excuse is that he thought there was glass there, but if there had been glass, Chloe's position would have had to be closer to SA, as he couldn't have leaned her forward. MOO.

If I'm understanding the attorneys correctly, the lawsuit key issue is that there were no warnings indicating the windows could be opened and the danger. Something similar was true in the death of Lane Graves at Disney World. In fact, Disney immediately closed the area and erected a wall, also posted warning signs.

I'm curious what CBS coverage that was on because this national CBS story from today makes no mention of police and none of the news panel agrees that it is a crime. Thanks!

Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship
 
If he didn't watch the video of the dangling death he NEEDS to do so, asap
There is, as of yet ZERO evidence or testimony that he "dangled" this baby out of the window. I seriously feel that is not the case. Why insist on calling it "The Dangling death" (bolded, enlarged and colored even!), when it's much more likely he tried to let the kid look out at the view and lost his grip? Toddlers often lurch forward suddenly and I totally see that as more plausible than Grampa impersonating Micheal Jackson frankly. All just my .2
 
I’m aware. I believe in most places at least, a DA, ADA, AG are all considered law enforcement or an extension of.
I'm curious why PR took jurisdiction rather than the FBI. I thought they get involved with deaths on U.S. cruise ships. Maybe one of our attorneys can pop in and shed some light.

JMO
 
Just for balance, keep in mind that civil suits like this happen all the time. In fact, the law firm representing the family specializes in maritime law, including wrongful death cases. Back when threads one and two were open I researched some of the suits against cruise lines over the years and found a number of them. There were a few drowning cases against RCCL. I'd have to go back and double check but IIRC one was about the lack of lifeguards which caused RCCL to change policy and hire lifeguards.

Anyhow, my point is that this isn't the first lawsuit brought against a cruise ship line and it wouldn't surprise me if the parties reach a settlement, maybe even one that includes the ship installs screens or warning signs. If it does make it to trial my guess is it'll end up with each party being assigned a portion of responsibility. MOO.
 
There is, as of yet ZERO evidence or testimony that he "dangled" this baby out of the window. I seriously feel that is not the case. Why insist on calling it "The Dangling death" (bolded, enlarged and colored even!), when it's much more likely he tried to let the kid look out at the view and lost his grip? Toddlers often lurch forward suddenly and I totally see that as more plausible than Grampa impersonating Micheal Jackson frankly. All just my .2

But even if he did that, why? Why would any responsible adult do that? I mean, would you ? I know I wouldn't let any small child near a high window like that. What was he thinking? I can't even imagine, and am totally and completely at a loss. So, please, please, if someone could please explain that to me, I am waiting. TIA
 
If I'm understanding the attorneys correctly, the lawsuit key issue is that there were no warnings indicating the windows could be opened and the danger. Something similar was true in the death of Lane Graves at Disney World. In fact, Disney immediately closed the area and erected a wall, also posted warning signs.

I'm curious what CBS coverage that was on because this national CBS story from today makes no mention of police and none of the news panel agrees that it is a crime. Thanks!

Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship

Not so similar actually. Disney always had signs up all around the lagoon to not go into the water. Unfortunately Lane had waded into the water allowing the gator to snatch him. After what happened to Lane Disney changed the signs to warn of specific alligator danger, and also yes they put up fencing around all water entry areas not just at that resort but all. Biggest difference is that within 2 days of the incident the parents of Lane announced they would not seek suit against Disney. I believe they recognized their own part as he shouldn’t have been in the water, and in turn Disney likely recognized they could do more as well. A tragic accident.
 
But even if he did that, why? Why would any responsible adult do that? I mean, would you ? I know I wouldn't let any small child near a high window like that. What was he thinking? I can't even imagine, and am totally and completely at a loss. So, please, please, if someone could please explain that to me, I am waiting. TIA
Horrendously bad judgment. Would be my guess. :(
 
Criminal Charge, Possibilities Before Trial?
I'm pretty sure that the suit against the cruise ship is a civil suit and could be paid out and not go to court, however, the charge today is a criminal charge and not about to go away and can't be settled ahead of time.
.
@lonetraveler :) and Others
"... charge today is a criminal charge and not about to go away and can't be settled ahead of time."

If, big IF, PR's criminal justice system is like some/many US states, it's possible ---
(1) Prosecutor could move to withdraw charges now/before trial (for whatever reason). May/may not be able to refile later.
(2) At a pre-trial hearing, a judge could dismiss for lack or probably cause, for lack of evd, etc.
(3) Defendant could reach plea bargain/deal w prosecutor (for ex. child endangerment) a proposal a judge may/may not accept.
(4) ???
Not saying any of the above are likely. Just saying, if like some US states, a trial is not an unequivocal certainty, not like the sun coming up tomorrow morning in the east. jmo.
 
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