IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[Lilibet]

Good luck with that.

If the parents want to watch, I think the tape could be edited by LE to show only what led up to Chloe’s fall, without including the fall itself. Their attorney, however, will have an opportunity to watch the entire tape.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Right. I have no doubt that he loved Chloe. Of course he was hysterical! I have no doubt that SA is liked and admired in his community, as the article indicates. He may very well believe there was glass, and he may be very careful with his grandkids as his daughter says (despite his seatbelt and speeding violations). BUT, wonderful people can do stupid, negligent things on occasion, and when someone dies as a result there are legal consequences that should not be minimized and avoided.

"He was extremely hysterical," Kimberly Wiengang said. "The thing that he has repeatedly told us is, 'I believed that there was glass.' He will cry over and over. At no point ever, ever has Sam ever put our kids in danger."

Incidentally, this article also makes clear that SA sat Chloe on the railing to bang on the glass, for any who doubt this.

“The Weigands say the 18-month-old loved banging on the glass at her brother's hockey games. That's why her grandfather sat her on a wooden rail in front of what he apparently thought was a wall of enclosed glass windows.”

Charging grandfather in girl's cruise ship death "pouring salt" on family's wounds, attorney says

What about the windows below the railing? Those didn't open and would have been PERFECT for the glass banging ritual. I find SA's lack of judgement contemptible and inexcusable. People who think it's "OK" to teach kids to bang on ANY glass need a course in common sense and basic safety.

 

[justbreathe]

Hope this doesn't get me in trouble here but I've felt from the beginning that grandpa probably really doesn't want to go scott free without any retribution. Maybe this charge will help him feel like he is being held responsible for his actions and he can go on to heal from this tragedy. I know that he has blamed himself and always will but just maybe he needed the charges to happen.

I don’t see where anyone seems to think he did anything at all, and that they all completely blame the window for daring to be open.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Banging on a window in what was basically a public lounge area seems off. Imagine just relaxing on deck, enjoying the breeze... Some guy wanders over with a toddler and encourages her to BANG BANG BANG on the window. Even if she was sitting on the floor. BANG BANG BANG! It’s like - no.

ITA!!

 

[justbreathe]

I think weight also plays a big role in aging. The grandfather looked overweight in his photos. He might have arthritis. Anybody's guess but I do believe his health may have been a factor as to why he was using the railing. It is there for a reason, after all.

JMO

What I am hearing you say is SA’s health may have been a factor in why he was using the railing *as a toddler seat.* Because the railing is there to be used to help older or weaker people hold heavy children?

 

[justbreathe]

If anything, the criminal charges may result in the family digging in and refusing to settle because they want this to be tried in the court of public opinion.

JMO

That seems like a bad plan. If they want the court of public opinion to weigh in, we’ll see that video tape. And will render our verdict.

 

[Lilibet]

Banging on a window in what was basically a public lounge area seems off. Imagine just relaxing on deck, enjoying the breeze... Some guy wanders over with a toddler and encourages her to BANG BANG BANG on the window. Even if she was sitting on the floor. BANG BANG BANG! It’s like - no.

Children are never too young to be taught that they should not disturb others, even though children that young think the universe revolves around them. It is up to parents to help them integrate into the rest of the world. If they don’t do this for their children they are pretty much guaranteeing that their kids will be disliked later for being self-centered.

What about the windows below the railing? Those didn't open and would have been PERFECT for the glass banging ritual. I find SA's lack of judgement contemptible and inexcusable. People who think it's "OK" to teach kids to bang on ANY glass need a course in common sense and basic safety.

I agree. Glass at any level should be off limits, even when a child is too young and weak to break it. We don’t wait until a child is old enough to break glass to tell them it’s unsafe and stop them from banging on it.

 

[justbreathe]

That's your opinion. I don't agree. The local media in NW Indiana and Chicago suburbs sure support the family and their goal of ensuring child safety rather than the corporation. Experts are now weighing in and will continue to do so.

Glad I don't own the stock. It's been one scandal after another involving an incredible disregard for passenger safety.

JMO
‘Double devastation’: When kids die by accident, should caregivers be charged?
Others said the charges went too far.

In the case of children — who by nature are helpless, vulnerable and dependent upon their caregivers, said Peter Scharf, a public health criminologist at the Louisiana State University School of Public Health — there is often a desire to "blame someone, even if it's not legally appropriate."

"It's double devastation: the loss of a child, and now this."

"You have to know a little more about the case to really get inside the head of the prosecutors, but on the face of it, it seems like a problematic decision," Scharf said. "It's double devastation: the loss of a child, and now this."

Deadly accidents under the careful watch of loving caregivers are rare, but they do happen. A more frequent example: A parent who falsely remembers dropping their child off at daycare, unintentionally leaving the child to die strapped in their car seats as the temperature inside the vehicle rises.

SA lifted the girl up into an open window higher than his waist, then dropped her.

Everyone can prevent this by not lifting babies up to play on railings.

That’s nice their local community buys their fairy tale, but no one else does.

 

[IceIce9]

Chloe's father is a police officer. I think all police officers and attorneys would advise family and friends to not voluntarily take a breathalyzer.

JMO

Not all police officers would advise that. Plenty of police officers take breathalyzer tests themselves after they are involved in motor vehicle accidents either on duty or off.

Don’t generalize and say “all police officers.”

 

[IceIce9]

SA lifted the girl up into an open window higher than his waist, then dropped her.

Everyone can prevent this by not lifting babies up to play on railings.

That’s nice their local community buys their fairy tale, but no one else does.

Not all local community members buy the fairy tale. One article mentioned the lack of support locally. MOO until I can find the link.

And check out the comments under the local news stories. Definitely not buying the story per their comments.

<modsnip>

 

[justbreathe]

Just watching CBS coverage and the one policeman illustrates what he saw GP do after viewing the video. It's chilling.

According to this man, SA was balancing Chloe on the wooden railing, and apparently let his hands go open (having no grip on Chloe at all).

I know the excuse is that he thought there was glass there, but if there had been glass, Chloe's position would have had to be closer to SA, as he couldn't have leaned her forward. MOO.

That fits the “and she was just...gone” narrative the lawyer kept pushing. I feel this makes logical sense. And whether he knew the window was open or closed is a bit irrelevent, because he *should* *have* *known* before setting that baby there.

This is a window we’re talking about. Not a panel from Wonder Woman’s invisible jet.

ETA a word and MOO

 

[Lilibet]

Not all police officers would advise that. Plenty of police officers take breathalyzer tests themselves after they are involved in motor vehicle accidents either on duty or off.

Don’t generalize and say “all police officers.”

In many states refusal to submit to a breathalyzer test when pulled over can result in a suspended license, so LE would encourage the driver to comply. This doesn’t apply to passengers, so SA would fall into a gray area since he was not operating a motor vehicle.

I think it would have been very difficult in that horrible time to sort through the advantages and disadvantages of SA taking the test, so “when in doubt don’t” may have been good advice. It is possible to fail the test without drinking.

Foods That Can Cause A False Positive On A Breathalyzer Test

 

[justbreathe]

I'm curious why PR took jurisdiction rather than the FBI. I thought they get involved with deaths on U.S. cruise ships. Maybe one of our attorneys can pop in and shed some light.

JMO

There are no US cruise ships. This one was registered in the Bahamas.

 

[MyBelle]

There are no US cruise ships. This one was registered in the Bahamas.

The ship is owned by a corporation headquartered in the United States. A civil lawsuit is against the owner.

 

[justbreathe]

If I'm understanding the attorneys correctly, the lawsuit key issue is that there were no warnings indicating the windows could be opened and the danger. Something similar was true in the death of Lane Graves at Disney World. In fact, Disney immediately closed the area and erected a wall, also posted warning signs.

I'm curious what CBS coverage that was on because this national CBS story from today makes no mention of police and none of the news panel agrees that it is a crime. Thanks!

Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship

I think the best warning that a window is open is a lack of barrier to the outside, allowing both unobstructed airflow and vision. That’s how I tell a window is open. I use my sense of sight and touch, and maybe even smell (the ocean air). Sometimes I also use my sense of sound, in that sounds not muffled by a glass barrier are louder.

I don’t think I have ever used my sense of taste.

 

[MyBelle]

Not all police officers would advise that. Plenty of police officers take breathalyzer tests themselves after they are involved in motor vehicle accidents either on duty or off.

Don’t generalize and say “all police officers.”

I don't know of any case where a police officer has voluntarily taken a breathalyzer. My opinion is that none of them would do so.

JMO

 

[they'll get you]

Right. I have no doubt that he loved Chloe. Of course he was hysterical! I have no doubt that SA is liked and admired in his community, as the article indicates. He may very well believe there was glass, and he may be very careful with his grandkids as his daughter says (despite his seatbelt and speeding violations). BUT, wonderful people can do stupid, negligent things on occasion, and when someone dies as a result there are legal consequences that should not be minimized and avoided.

"He was extremely hysterical," Kimberly Wiengang said. "The thing that he has repeatedly told us is, 'I believed that there was glass.' He will cry over and over. At no point ever, ever has Sam ever put our kids in danger."

Incidentally, this article also makes clear that SA sat Chloe on the railing to bang on the glass, for any who doubt this.

“The Weigands say the 18-month-old loved banging on the glass at her brother's hockey games. That's why her grandfather sat her on a wooden rail in front of what he apparently thought was a wall of enclosed glass windows.”

Charging grandfather in girl's cruise ship death "pouring salt" on family's wounds, attorney says

Has grand father got bad eyesight?

 

[they'll get you]

I don't know of any case where a police officer has voluntarily taken a breathalyzer. My opinion is that none of them would do so.

JMO

It’s not a crime to be on board and have a couple of drinks.

 

[Lilibet]

DBA. Not worth the trouble.

 

[justbreathe]

Criminal Charge, Possibilities Before Trial?
. @lonetraveler and Others
"... charge today is a criminal charge and not about to go away and can't be settled ahead of time."

If, big IF, PR's criminal justice system is like some/many US states, it's possible ---
(1) Prosecutor could move to withdraw charges now/before trial (for whatever reason). May/may not be able to refile later.
(2) At a pre-trial hearing, a judge could dismiss for lack or probably cause, for lack of evd, etc.
(3) Defendant could reach plea bargain/deal w prosecutor (for ex. child endangerment) a proposal a judge may/may not accept.
(4) ???
Not saying any of the above are likely. Just saying, if like some US states, a trial is not an unequivocal certainty, not like the sun coming up tomorrow morning in the east. jmo.

I take comments by the ship's staff with a grain of salt. Of course they would blame the guest rather than admit liability. They want to keep their jobs.

JMO

What in the world would any of the staff on board be liable for or negligent about? “You are negligent for existing.” There seems to be a camp that refuses to acknowledge the obvious poor judgement of holding babies up to open windows. It is weird. If he had stayed away from the window, left the baby on the floor, made sure the window was closed...