IN - Kimberly Camm, 35, & 2 children murdered, Georgetown, 28 Sept 2000 *2 earlier trials OVERTURNED

[Madeleine74]

These shows almost never go through the full list of evidence. There wasn't only the blood spatter. There was also his wife's blood found on one of his shoes. Further, brass shavings in a very large quantity (such as those that would be found in ammunition) were also found in the pocket(s) of Camm's shorts.

While the judge didn't allow any testimony about the injuries to the genitals of the 5 yr old girl, it doesn't erase the fact that during the autopsy blunt force trauma was found on/in her genitals and the M.E. determined those injuries had occurred with the last 12+ hours of her life. The M.E. said on an earlier '48 Hours' episode that such an injury is indicative of molestation. The defense successfully argued on appeal there was no proof of who caused those injuries and so that was excluded from being mentioned in this 3rd trial. I think it's relevant because the condition of each body at the time of death is part of the evidence.

Camm had multiple affairs and propositioned multiple women over the years of his marriage and that was excluded for this trial as well. Though the judge excluded it, it doesn't erase the behavior as a fact that it did occur.

During an investigation lots of things get discovered. Some relevant, some not relevant, some things get legally included, some get legally excluded, but if you are investigating and you're in a position to learn about all the evidence found and you have access to statements and other parts of an investigation, I can see where suspicion might get focused on a spouse. Statistics don't lie -- the majority of these kinds of murders are committed by a close family member, often the remaining/living spouse. To dismiss the spouse from the investigation would be remiss.

Camm wasn't found 'innocent,' he was found not guilty, which means the jury didn't think the state met their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There's enough evidence in this case where I remain suspicious even though Boney was found to be there that evening.

 

[Yellow]

These shows almost never go through the full list of evidence. There wasn't only the blood spatter. There was also his wife's blood found on one of his shoes. Further, brass shavings in a very large quantity (such as those that would be found in ammunition) were also found in the pocket(s) of Camm's shorts.

While the judge didn't allow any testimony about the injuries to the genitals of the 5 yr old girl, it doesn't erase the fact that during the autopsy blunt force trauma was found on/in her genitals and the M.E. determined those injuries had occurred with the last 12+ hours of her life. The M.E. said on an earlier '48 Hours' episode that such an injury is indicative of molestation. The defense successfully argued on appeal there was no proof of who caused those injuries and so that was excluded from being mentioned in this 3rd trial. I think it's relevant because the condition of each body at the time of death is part of the evidence.

Camm had multiple affairs and propositioned multiple women over the years of his marriage and that was excluded for this trial as well. Though the judge excluded it, it doesn't erase the behavior as a fact that it did occur.

During an investigation lots of things get discovered. Some relevant, some not relevant, some things get legally included, some get legally excluded, but if you are investigating and you're in a position to learn about all the evidence found and you have access to statements and other parts of an investigation, I can see where suspicion might get focused on a spouse. Statistics don't lie -- the majority of these kinds of murders are committed by a close family member, often the remaining/living spouse. To dismiss the spouse from the investigation would be remiss.

Camm wasn't found 'innocent,' he was found not guilty, which means the jury didn't think the state met their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There's enough evidence in this case where I remain suspicious even though Boney was found to be there that evening.

I could see focusing on Camm as the likely suspect but it is so obvious Boney did it. I think you would need to have evidence of a preexisting relationship between the two to get to a Camm conviction. The only way Camm is involved IMO was if he hired Boney, but usually the hit man will roll over and get a reduced sentence if they testify and admit they were hit man. If Boney was hit man why isn't he doing that? Boney'a story sounds utterly ridiculous.

 

[Madeleine74]

I could see focusing on Camm as the likely suspect but it is so obvious Boney did it. I think you would need to have evidence of a preexisting relationship between the two to get to a Camm conviction. The only way Camm is involved IMO was if he hired Boney, but usually the hit man will roll over and get a reduced sentence if they testify and admit they were hit man. If Boney was hit man why isn't he doing that? Boney'a story sounds utterly ridiculous.

It's obvious Boney was near that vehicle at some point as he left his handprint on the SUV. How his old sweatshirt got put next to Brad's body is a mystery; it seems like something planted and not something merely forgotten. How is it obvious Boney "did it?" It's only obvious Boney was there.

What's not obvious to me is who did what and when. Why would Boney execute 2 little kids? Some claim he wanted Kim's shoes...but he didn't even take them. Saying Boney would have 'rolled over' means he was the only one there and did the crime himself is not a logical conclusion. There's no proof of that, no causation.

How did those bullet shavings get inside David Camm's pockets of his shorts? That evidence remains. Boney didn't put it there. Jill's blood on Camm's Tshirt -- the blood on Jill's hair coagulated by the time Camm got home and could not make those tiny pinprick type stains. Tissue from Jill (skin tissue) was also found embedded in Camm's Tshirt, along with the blood spray. How did that get there?

The physical evidence does not match Camm's story and it doesn't match Boney's story. It's not obvious what happened in that garage and the rest seems to come down to what people 'believe' or 'feel.' As for me I have no idea because I wasn't there and the evidence to me does not exonerate Camm. I will remain unsure, which is an uncomfortable place to be, but that's how it goes.

 

[Yellow]

It's obvious Boney was near that vehicle at some point as he left his handprint on the SUV. How his old sweatshirt got put next to Brad's body is a mystery; it seems like something planted and not something merely forgotten. How is it obvious Boney "did it?" It's only obvious Boney was there.

What's not obvious to me is who did what and when. Why would Boney execute 2 little kids? Some claim he wanted Kim's shoes...but he didn't even take them. Saying Boney would have 'rolled over' means he was the only one there and did the crime himself is not a logical conclusion. There's no proof of that, no causation.

How did those bullet shavings get inside David Camm's pockets of his shorts? That evidence remains. Boney didn't put it there. Jill's blood on Camm's Tshirt -- the blood on Jill's hair coagulated by the time Camm got home and could not make those tiny pinprick type stains. Tissue from Jill (skin tissue) was also found embedded in Camm's Tshirt, along with the blood spray. How did that get there?

The physical evidence does not match Camm's story and it doesn't match Boney's story. It's not obvious what happened in that garage and the rest seems to come down to what people 'believe' or 'feel.' As for me I have no idea because I wasn't there and the evidence to me does not exonerate Camm. I will remain unsure, which is an uncomfortable place to be, but that's how it goes.

To me the dna touch evidence was convincing, it was found on all victims clothes and the wife's underwear. He obviously touched those children and the wife.those children were old enough (5 and 7) to be able to identify an attacker or at less give a description. He killed them to get rid of the witnesses.

Is there another reason those brass things would be there? What is defense response?

I think Boney jus forgot the shirt, criminals make mistakes all the time. And the foot thing is weird, and suggests Boney was involved. In many cases, people say, on well how could it be a burglary and yet the thief not steal. The same argument is being made now to contend Rudy Guede is not sole perp in Amanda Knox case. I think what happens they go to steal, things get out of hand, they kill on the spurt of the moment and then do not steal bc they do not want the things linked to them in a crime. They cannot sell them bc if found w the item or selling to a pawn shop that would connect them to the crime.

If time of death is certain, I am pretty sure husband did not actually fire the shots. Boney did, bc husband has an alibi for those times. Husband could still be involved bc he may have hired Boney but there likely is no evidence of such a meeting, so we will never know

I wonder if husband can be tried w conspiracy bc that is a separate crime if they found evidence he paid Boney. I am not sure what his charges were, whether they ended up doing the aiding or abetting crime or not in the charge to the jury.

Seeing 48 hours and reading the 21 pages here on the case I am convinced of husband's innocence. I think wife's family hates him bc he was a cad but being a cad is not being a murderer.

 

[kimbella]

The problem with touch dna is that it is no where near an exact science. The sweatshirt with Boney's dna was thrown into one of the body bags, thus spreading dna all over that victim. The sweatshirt also came into contact with other items during the first two trials.

If the touch dna would have been done immediately, I would put much more stock into it. It's such an unsure science that a judge had to rule on whether or not it could even be allowed into evidence for the 3rd trial.

At least one of the previous juries made up a timeline of all of Camm's alibi basketball witnesses, with times that they reported seeing Camm in the gym. There were gaps in the timeline. Were the jurors of Boone County too stupid to do that?

Additionally, one basketball player later came forward and stated that he definitely couldn't say that Camm was there the entire time.

As far as Boney not knowing what Camm was wearing - I 100% believe that Camm had other clothes on over his basketball t-shirt and shorts. I think that's how only the small area of his shirt obtained the high velocity impact splatter. Camm wouldn't have been stupid enough to not cover the basketball clothes!

Plus, there's the drop of Kim's blood on Camm's shoe. Yet, he only left 1/2 of a footprint in the blood on the garage floor - and not in a way that could have made that drop.

IF Camm is innocent, why isn't he trying to find out who molested Jill? Oh, wait, it's because he knows who did it. Jill had told her grandmother that she was sore and that "daddy did it". Camm's semen was on Jill's pillow (or bedsheets).

The two previous juries, as well as the jurors from Boney's trial, still believe that Camm is guilty. They even went so far as to say that their verdicts were NOT based on the affairs or molestation, and the 2nd trial's jury knew about Boney.

 

[joe jones]

for me the fact that during three trials, two investigations and years of police work not one single scrap of evidence has ever been produced to show that Boney ever met Camm pre the murders,

Boneys story changes with each question he is asked, he could not give a good description of Camms car even though according to one of his stories he followed Camm as Camm drove to the house, he did however recall Kims car in much detail,

Camm can provide name, addresses and phone numbers of the men he was playing basketball with the night of the murders, Boney can not provide one witness from the basketball game he was allegedly playing when he says he met Camm, plus his girlfriend of the time remembers he never played basket ball, if Boney is to be believed some of the alleged meetings with Camm happened in broad daylight in public places, yet once again police have not found one witness who places them together,

Boney was caught for other crimes because he left clothing behind, he was a violent predator, he had previous convictions for violent crimes, he had/has a foot fetish,

if Camm was going to use Boney as the patsy then he would have killed Boney, he was a recently retired cop, he knows how crimes are investigated, if it was a conspiracy then there is no way Boney would have got out of there alive,

Boney denied being there till it was proven with physical evidence, when he could have immediately implicated Camm and got a plea deal,

on the evidence that was presented at trial I agree with juries verdict, and on the rumours, speculation that was supressed I would also find him not guilty,

 

[Madeleine74]

I am somewhat skeptical of touch DNA. The first I heard of it is when an unknown male's DNA was said to be found on JonBenet's (much too large by at least 4 sizes) panties that were put on her after she was killed). All the other evidence in that case specifically points to the parents being involved in her death, yet the ex-DA (Mary Lacey) proclaimed the touch DNA exonerated the Ramseys. Ummmm....no, not at all. From that point on it made me wonder about Touch DNA and its validity.

I'm not saying it's not valid, I'm saying I question it. I don't trust it to the extent I trust DNA testing based on body fluids, hair, bone, etc.

I don't need the defense to explain things; I just need facts about physical evidence.

It is a fact that Jill's blood was on Camm's T-shirt and Kim's blood was on Camm's shoe. It is a fact that the time between victims being killed and Camm calling the ISP was long enough so that blood at the scene, including blood flowing out the garage door, was coagulated to some extent. It is a fact that metal shavings (which I think were brass) in a significant quantity were found in the pockets of Camm's shorts. Those are not disputed facts of the case. It is also a fact that little Jill Camm had recent injuries to her genitals that caused the M.E. to stop and begin a sexual assault exam and believe some sort of molestation had likely happened to Jill in a period of time 12 - 24 hrs before her death.

Those things happened and Boney is not an explanation for all of it.

Hence why I don't know what happened or who did what, but the evidence does not match Camm's or Boney's stories.

 

[Sustained]

Just watched this on Dateline NBC last night ...

How is it that Charles Bonet's sweatshirt ended up in the backseat of the Bronco behind and under Jill Camm UNLESS someone put it there ? Why would Bonet even remove his sweatshirt in the first place ?

IMO, Bonet's statement about delivering the gun to Camm wrapped in the sweatshirt is true and Camm committed the murders. Did anyone see any tears from Camm in the media interviews after the killings ?

 

[A.D.A McCoy]

Granted, I started watching it online at 3 am, but I'm almost certain I caught all of it.

Going solely off the Dateline episode, I believe the proper verdict was finally rendered. Of course, even an extended episode such as this one couldn't possibly cover the entire story, however, they do focus on the relevant portions of the trial/trials.

As far as the trauma to the genitals goes....I am going to have to double check, but for those who watched the Dateline episode, is it not the case that the medical examiner ruled there was indeed trauma, but said nothing about sexual assault?

At any rate, I will include this link to the you tube channel I usually check for the latest DL episode.

 

[Bali]

Just watched this on Dateline NBC last night ...

How is it that Charles Bonet's sweatshirt ended up in the backseat of the Bronco behind and under Jill Camm UNLESS someone put it there ? Why would Bonet even remove his sweatshirt in the first place ?

IMO, Bonet's statement about delivering the gun to Camm wrapped in the sweatshirt is true and Camm committed the murders. Did anyone see any tears from Camm in the media interviews after the killings ?

The sweatshirt wasn't in the backseat of the bronco. It was laying on the floor of the garage. When David returned home, he pulled Brad out of the bronco to do CPR and layed him right at his feet. The sweatshirt happened to be right there. Kim was also laying on the floor diagonally and the garage is only so big, so it's a coincidence that he happened to lay him on the sweatshirt. He was probably in a panic and it didn't occur to him to find a clear spot to place Bradley.

As to why Boney removed his sweatshirt...whoever the killer was took a shower and got a substantial amount of blood on the shower curtain. So we know he likely took off the rest of his clothing as well. It's possible that he took off the sweatshirt at that time or he already had it off. Boney had previously told police that he wore two sets of clothing to crime scenes so he could shed one layer and not match witness descriptions as he was fleeing. He testified in court that he was wearing both jeans and cargo pants on that evening (he played it off like that was a completely normal thing to do...). He had left clothing at crime scenes before, which is partially how he got caught for those crimes too. Also, the sweatshirt wrapped in the gun was a suggestion, on tape, by the police...and then it just *happens* to be true.

A previous poster had mentioned the molestation taking place between 12-24 hours between death...yes, someone testified to that, but there just isn't any reason to put any faith in that figure. Dr. Tracey Corey did the initial autopsy and in her interview with 48 hours, she stated that the first thing she saw when she took off Jill's clothing was blood. Which, caused her to say this was a very recent injury at or shortly before the deadly attack. So the prosecution had absolutely no reason to think she was wrong in this.

...until the second trial when things start to go south. the case isn't going well for them and the defense is crushing them. Then out of nowhere Corey's expert opinion isn't good enough and they hire Dr. Spivack who testified that this injury wasn't recent, but was at least 12 hours old. Convenient, eh? Their first medical expert isn't helping their case so suddenly they need to get a second opinion. And then, as it turns out, Spivack only recently decided on this extended time frame. She testified at her pre-trial deposition that this was a very recent injury, just like Corey said. Now all the sudden, with no additional evidence, she suddenly has a different opinion? What if the trial had happened a month earlier? Her expert opinion would've been different. Why should we trust it when it changes? I cant' remember how many medical examiners testified that trial, but I think it was like 5-6. They all said this was very new and could've happened at the time of the attack, so why would we believe that one ME whose story seems to change in accordance with what the prosecution wants?

Also, the presence of blood, which Corey testified to...I just can't get past that. Why would a 24 year old injury still be bleeding? She's changed her clothes probably 3 times in the past 24 hours, so why hasn't her mom taken her to the doctor? And beyond that, what kind of molestation type injury causes blunt force trauma and abrasion but leaves the hymen intact? To me, the most likely scenario is that Boney caused those injuries because she wouldn't stop screaming and crying. He had done crimes with witnesses before, but never children as witnesses. They were much harder to control.

And even if it was Camm who created these injuries, the prosecution has done so much witness tampering that we can prove that I can't trust anything they say at this point.

 

[Bali]

I heard within days of the murders that Jill told her grandmother that "daddy did it" when she complained of her private area hurting. This was before there was any news reporting of the molestation, but I think it was after Camm was arrested.

If it was made up, it didn't take long for someone (Kim's mother and/or someone at Jill's dance class) to make it up.

Mrs. Renn says she mentioned to Kim that Jill was complaining. It is not that uncommon for parents to look the other way when they don't want to see what's going on right in front of them. Hence why Kim hadn't called a doctor yet. (I personally believe Kim was near calling a doctor, and that is one of the reasons Camm decided to act on the murders - he would be found out for molesting Jill.)

Also, I was talking with one of my friends over the weekend. She remembers Camm dropping his older daughter off at school practices in his patrol car. If their relationship was so bad before the murders, why was she even visiting with her dad? I thought by high school age, kids were allowed to decide for themselves if they wanted to visit with their parents.

I heard this too. To me the "daddy did it" line sounds like utter crap. Sure, sometimes mothers look the other way, but if I was a grandmother and I heard this and *for some godforsaken reason* decided not to do anything, I probably wouldn't tell anyone! Just solely on the guilt alone that I could've stopped it and didnt. I mean, we're to believe that she told her grandmother that daddy was molesting her and she people did nothing at all, then told EVERYONE how she let it happen?

I did however see some article where she mentioned one point in time where there was redness and they took the girl to the doctor, who said it was a reaction to bubble bath. They stopped using it and it went away. To me, this is telling. If there was *anything*, A. the doctor would've seen it, and B. the prosecution would've tried to enter it into evidence. I mean, they tried to get the DNA analyst to lie and say that a spot on the comforter was Jill's vaginal secretions when she told him point blank there were no tests that could determine that. They were really desperate to prove the molestation and really couldn't come up with anything. I'm just not sure I believe it.

 

[Bali]

There was some staging of the crime scene. And a scene that has been staged points not to a random person unconnected with the victims. A random killer has no reason to 'stage' a crime scene. Staging is done to make the scene look like something else, rather than what it is, or to alter or obscure evidence. A random killer would not care about that -- they kill, they leave.

What staging are you talking about? For Boney to be the killer, no staging is required for the crime scene to look like that. The prosecution was only ever alleging that Camm staged it to look like someone else/Boney did it. Does that make sense? If Boney did it alone, it's exactly how it would look.

Second, I think there is far too much of a struggle for Camm to have done this (like, as in physically) OR for it to have been a planned execution. Kim was bruised from head to toe. Jill had substantial injuries on her. Boney likely wrestled the cell phone away from Kim at one point. I believe she exited the garage at some point based on the grass on her feet and was dragged back in. The DNA evidence points to him having her in a headlock and her nail was broken off. No hired hitman with a gun goes to all that trouble before shooting people. He shoots and leaves. And based on the timeline established by witnesses and experts, it took close to a half an hour. No hitman wastes that much time.

 

[OkieGranny]

http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...4/08/12/camm-civil-suits-shift-gear/13958485/

Lawyers representing David Camm's in-laws say Camm shouldn't get all of $626,000 in insurance and estate proceeds even though he was cleared last fall in the murders of his wife and two children.

Lawyers for Camm and those representing Camm's in-laws, Frank and Janice Renn, met in chambers with Floyd Circuit Judge Terrence Cody Tuesday morning to discuss pending civil cases the Renns filed to prevent Camm from profiting from his family's deaths.

 

[OkieGranny]

http://www.heraldbulletin.com/breakingnews/x449125386/Slain-womans-parents-drop-wrongful-death-suit

The parents of a southern Indiana woman who was slain alongside her two children 14 years ago have dropped a wrongful death lawsuit against their son-in-law, who was acquitted last year in the killings.

Despite Frank and Janice Renn's move, the couple isn't giving up on their efforts to keep David Camm from profiting from his family's deaths, said Amy Wheatley, one of the couple's attorneys.

Dropping the Floyd Circuit Court wrongful death suit was "all about streamlining and focusing" on the remaining pending cases against Camm that seek to deny him control of his family's estates and his late wife's insurance policy, Wheatley told The Courier-Journal on Thursday.

 

[TDW59]

I met David Camm's father in Boonville and often shared lunch with him. This travesty cost both his and his wife's early demise. I am so sorry they never got to see their son freed.

The evidence has never added up to convict David Camm and there have been many wrong rumors touted as facts. I can't believe that it took 22 pages for someone to post that the daughter's injury had several possible causes: an injury incurred on the playground occurred, then there were the swimming classes and the bubble bath.

The 2d jury was prevented from knowing about Boney at all.

There are so very many mistakes, inconsistencies and plain unfair practices in this series of trials.

Both families are victims.

It's all just very sad.

 

[katiesmomma48]

The child was molested in my opinion- based on what I heard on this show.
The child was of an age where she would have limited social engagements- or at least not without her parents KNOWING who she had been with- if not with them. The child was old enough to tell someone, and perhaps she did.

Is the Defense saying that she wasn't molested?
Or are they just saying that HE didn't molest her?
I may have missed that part.

I know this was a while ago but I really want to say something about this. I was a juror on the bonet trial and we saw a lot of the Camm evidence. They actually found Davids and his daughter fluid mixed together on the sheets. We were told the only way for it to be found like that if he was molesting her.


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[kimbella]

I'd heard the same thing.

 

[katiesmomma48]

I'd heard the same thing.

It's what we were told in court by the medical examiner


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[Krimi]

A bizarre case. David Camm obviously has/had a sex problem, you never know. For example, the Sargent who was featured in the movie "BlackHawk Down", and awarded for his determined combat was sentenced to something like 35 years at Fort Leavenworth for molesting his minor daughter. How did Boney know where Camm lived ? How did Boney know to be in the garage when the victims drove in ? What was Boneys mode of transportation ? To me the case reeks of Camm hiring Boney, a true psychopath, to do the deed - but Boney never made that accusation, possibly because he would have then implicated himself as a hit man , so he stuck to his story about just bringing a gun to Camm. Somehow, I think they are both dirty.

 

[FairM1]

It's odd then that the prosecution in the second trial of David Camm did not introduce that so called evidence of sexual molestation on the sheets as they put forward that as their motive in the second trial, so v strange they didnt bring that in , and only used the evidence of blunt force trauma which wasnt really evidence of molesation at all! it was all pure speculation as the appeal court pointed out !
David Camm is innocent and Charles Boney is guilty as charged.