IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #23

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My biggest question at the moment is... where is Jesse and why isn't he speaking? Why is he not with the parents, like Blair, the best friend is? This is very weird to me.

We know that JW and LS's relationship was strained. She "unfriended" him on Facebook, then "friended" him back again, to which he was receptive. Maybe his finishing school (has it happened yet? He is 22 already) made them both look ahead to the fact that he'd be leaving, and she had 2 more years to go without him there.

My question is, what was the relationship between JW and the other POI's? Were they friends? Were they all (former) AEPis? Was he jealous or embarassed that she was moving away from him, and more toward them/anyone else? Maybe JW and LS were through, with him being the dumpee, (maybe her parents wanted her to dump him, (another) SPEA major, and all) and he didn't feel it his place to assume the role as dutiful boyfriend. Maybe if none of this had happened, the Spierers would just as soon have her find someone else???
 
We know that JW and LS's relationship was strained. She "unfriended" him on Facebook, then "friended" him back again, to which he was receptive. Maybe his finishing school (has it happened yet? He is 22 already) made them both look ahead to the fact that he'd be leaving, and she had 2 more years to go without him there.

We know? Do we know even one thing that points to their relationship being strained? LS friends certainly have spoken out to quite the contrary of there being any relationship problems.
 
Regarding the video from Jupiter in post #500, I notice that CR's attorney states the CR was the "3rd or the 4th or the 5th person to last see her." Is that a weird statement to any of you all? If CR lost his memory and went to bed, how would he know this? Secondly, if we assume that is correct and that others told him the next day that his room mate saw her, then she left and went to JR's, that makes him the third person to have last seen her (that we know of). That's how I guess I would have stated it. But it almost sounds like CR's attorney is tying to deflect attention away from JR also.....indicating that surely at least 1 or 2 others had to have seen her after CR b/c JR couldn't possibly have done anything to her. Now if my gut is correct about that, then why would Salzman care? He's not representing JR. That leads me back to thinking that CR is involved in this again with JR and he's trying to deflect the attention from either of them. Sorry to be a flip-flopper, after just saying that I no longer felt very strongly pulled towards CR being guilty.

I had the same response (to the attorney's statement) and thoughts when I first saw this video. And I had the same response to CR's endearing segment too--for a long time actually.

All that glitters is not gold though. Imagine him after drinking and drugging; doing a few lines and getting all jacked up. I'm not accusing him of this. I'm just offering it up to bring into balance what may have become of his demeanor and behavior that fateful night. Same goes for JR of course and any other seemingly "nice boys" that surrounded her June 2-3.
 
It's a hell of a "fall-back" since SPEA is tied with the Harvard Kennedy School of Government for the second spot in the US News rankings of public affairs schools.

Yes, it's true. The two main reasons many kids in Lauren's circle come to IU are to (1) party and (2) hopefully be admitted to Kelley School of Business. Many of them live at Smallwood too.
 
I think CR's lawyer is referring to the story being told by JR and MB, when he talks about the other people who had supposedly seen L after CR passed out. MB, JR and one witness (JR's friend from out of town?) makes 3, and you know lawyers always want to make things sound even more removed from their client, so why not say 3, 4 or 5...or maybe there were up to 5 people.

I don't understand what is happening between the Spierers and JW either; he was a part of their family, more or less, for years, from a remark made in the very early days and now, nothing? Is it because he hired a lawyer? That would be enough to make my parents go ballastic in a case like this, I guess, even if it is for his own good...
 
I had the same response (to the attorney's statement) and thoughts when I first saw this video. And I had the same response to CR's endearing segment too--for a long time actually.

All that glitters is not gold though. Imagine him after drinking and drugging; doing a few lines and getting all jacked up. I'm not accusing him of this. I'm just offering it up to bring into balance what may have become of his demeanor and behavior that fateful night. Same goes for JR of course and any other seemingly "nice boys" that surrounded her June 2-3.

Oh yes, I actually thought of that before I even posted. I realize that lots of "nice boys" can and do change dramatically during a night of partying, but yet I just don't get this case. IF CR is guilty, he sure doesn't act like it AFTER the fact. While yes, he could have been a nice polite, humble boy on any given day before June 2, then drank/dugged up to a frenzy on that night, had someone OD near him, and chose to help hide her body......If that happened, I guess I wouldn't expect him to be so calm about it afterward. Typically when someone is guilty, his eye contact shifts. His facial expressions note it. There are LOTS of signs of which I know and recognize, that point toward guilt, and I just didn't see them in him. There are cold, calculated, callous murders who can be interviewed and remain like stone and you'd not know they're guilty. These are more like psychopaths. I just don't see that behavior in any of the boys so far. I still think one or more of them are guilty, but because I believe this was an accident and that none of these boys are psychopaths, I'm just trying to understand how they're pulling this off without appearing guilty. Some thoughts I have:

1. Maybe it really wasn't JR/CR. Maybe it was the AB/ZO group b/c we haven't really heard from them or seen them interviewed to view their reactions.

2. Maybe they somehow have themselves convinced that they didn't do anything wrong since it was an accident.

3. Maybe (really don't believe this one, but maybe) it IS CR who is guilty and maybe he really does have memory loss and doesn't remember it. Perhaps the other boys suspect him as well and they're covering for their friend b/c they know he doesn't remember.

4. Maybe there really is some higher drug involvement and they are scared crazy and keep telling themsleves to "get it together" for their own safety. These kids aren't actors though. I think I'd see through it. Maybe not.
 
Yes, it's true. The two main reasons many kids in Lauren's circle come to IU are to (1) party and (2) hopefully be admitted to Kelley School of Business. Many of them live at Smallwood too.


Has IU really gotten to be that "known" for it's partying? I mean, I understand that times have changed drastically and that students at ALL campuses party (and some schools are more known for it than others), but... when I went to Purdue in the 80s, I had a lot of friends at IU. I don't recall it having much more of a "party reputation" than any other universities where any of my friends went at the time. There is much more widespread drug use now though, but I'm wondering what happened that made IU more known for partying than others.

It always surprises me that kids in this type of circle are the really big partiers, yet are also the ones who are wanting to get into the really good Business Schools. I can't wrap my head around how they can party so hard and still do well in school. I wasn't a saint in college, but these kids are so far to the extreme. I see it in my community as well.
 
Please elaborate. How do "we" (royal pluperfect) know he didn't? Because his attorney isn't a neurologist, didn't perform the diagnosis & thus failed to divulge such details?

Actually, I thought and still think CR's reported course of action (sleep following head injury complicated by alcohol) following the alleged assault was potentially dangerous (to his health) absent medical attention.



Is this a medical opinion? I don't know why it's even debated. Beyond this forum (and kind), there's little dispute (from the academy) whether punches can cause concussions or how concussions often result in memory loss.

The Herald Times reported as much last month in "Expert: Loss of memory common after head injury".

Research also shows that even and "only a simple punch, rather than accumulated damage from multiple punches, can cause cerebral concussion."

Respectfully, I think that the issue is not whether punches can cause concussions or that concussions often cause memory loss, but whether this punch in particular caused a concussion. The paper you linked was about professional boxers. I am not an expert on boxing or kinesiology, but I have to think that receiving a punch from a professional boxer would be a lot worse than receiving one from the average college guy. In fact, the paper describes "jarring" vs. "non-jarring" punches and notes that the former is rather specific to boxing (p. 348). "Jarring
punches were variously described as a punch that moves the
head laterally (38.7%), a punch that turns the head (58.5%),
and unknown (12%)." This is the type that is more often associated with memory loss:

"Our assumption that external force with rotating acceleration,
which causes more damage to the brain,
tends to cause
concussion in more cases than external force with parallel
acceleration was verified." (from Discussion, p. 351)

The point is that we don't know the physics of the punch CR took, so we have to be careful estimating its effects.
 
snipped

It always surprises me that kids in this type of circle are the really big partiers, yet are also the ones who are wanting to get into the really good Business Schools. I can't wrap my head around how they can party so hard and still do well in school. I wasn't a saint in college, but these kids are so far to the extreme. I see it in my community as well.



Its called cheating. Very common in colleges everywhere.

McCabe and Hanson agree that while students at all levels resort to cheating, it's those at the top and at the bottom who tend to cheat more.

Cheating In College Is Widespread — But Why?

"The top's cheating to thrive, the bottom's cheating to survive," McCabe says, "and those in the middle are content with their grades and just go along in life and are happy."


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128624207
 
Students do cheat, but sometimes you can party and not cheat and still do ok. Social partying was so common in college-people who could do well in classes and then on weekends or right after finals party it up. Finals were always a three or four day binge of studying and writing and then a week long celebration afterward. Our party days were more like Thursday and Friday, Saturday to recover, Sunday to do work. Young folk are able to juggle a lot of things in a week and that includes writing a paper during the day and getting coked up that night.

My judgment of CR is that is sort of a class clown type who parties a bit too hard sometimes, but innocent. I feel like he really did pass out in that bed that night.
 
The paper you linked was about professional boxers. I am not an expert on boxing or kinesiology, but I have to think that receiving a punch from a professional boxer would be a lot worse than receiving one from the average college guy.

Thanks. I responded to a comment which counterfactually disputed the claim of memory loss resulting from concussion. Citing sources derived from accepted canon, I noted how memory loss is actually common to concussions.

The Japanese study was included to illustrate how a single punch could concuss. It was confined to boxers, so there is no evaluation of punches or punch effects delivered or received by non-boxers.

However, Google is replete with accounts of fatalities (typical of subdural hematomas) resulting from a single punch administered by non-boxers.. It seems to [follow] any single-punch capable of killing an individual could surely trigger "memory loss."

In fact, the paper describes "jarring" vs. "non-jarring" punches and notes that the former is rather specific to boxing (p. 348). "Jarring punches were variously described as a punch that moves the head laterally (38.7%), a punch that turns the head (58.5%), and unknown (12%)." This is the type that is more often associated with memory loss ...

WRT "jarring" and "non-jarring", I believe you've misapprehended the text on 2 levels.

Text: "There is a 'jarring' punch, which only boxers who have experienced this type of punch can know, as well as a 'non-jarring'. When asked to describe 'jarring', boxers gave the following answers: cloudy head and wobbly legs (76.2%), fatigue (4.6%), mentally weakened (27%), weakened legs (8.5%), and temporary loss of memory or consciousness (5.7%)."

You: "In fact, the paper describes 'jarring' vs. 'non-jarring' punches and notes that the former is rather specific to boxing."

1. No, the text describes the ability of respondents, i.e., boxers, to discriminate "jarring" from "non-jarring." The study does not imply, state or suggest non-boxers cannot, do not or are not capable of delivering or receiving punches which meet the criteria for "jarring." (Cf. Google, one-punch)

2. According to the text, respondents did not confine "jarring" to hooks alone. Respondents simply noted punches which turned the head, e.g. hooks (58.5%), were the most common source of jarring while other punches comprised a smaller though significant percentage (38.7%, 12%). Shorter: Any punch can produce a "jarring" effect; among boxers, hooks were more "common" than others.

The point is that we don't know the physics of the punch CR took, so we have to be careful estimating its effects.

Indeed. I've suggested nothing about the type of punch CR allegedly absorbed. I've merely noted single punches can produce concussions, how memory loss is common to & symptomatic of same.
 
Please elaborate. How do "we" (royal pluperfect) know he didn't? Because his attorney isn't a neurologist, didn't perform the diagnosis & thus failed to divulge such details?

Actually, I thought and still think CR's reported course of action (sleep following head injury complicated by alcohol) following the alleged assault was potentially dangerous (to his health) absent medical attention.



Is this a medical opinion? I don't know why it's even debated. Beyond this forum (and kind), there's little dispute (from the academy) whether punches can cause concussions or how concussions often result in memory loss.

The Herald Times reported as much last month in "Expert: Loss of memory common after head injury".

Research also shows that even and "only a simple punch, rather than accumulated damage from multiple punches, can cause cerebral concussion."


Very true.. BUT... if I were the momma of that boy, and he called me and told me he had memory loss (or if I read it in the news!), I'd be darned sure that he had medical attention to be sure he was OK.

I have always found it amazing that neither his parents nor his attorney insisted on medical attention. Seems to me that, thinking ahead to possible time in the courtroom, I'd want to have medical documentation of that memory loss!
 
and... here's my take on why JW has not been in communication with CS/RS...

I would imagine that his attorney (and perhaps their attorney also!) has recommended that they NOT be in contact. It really would muddy the waters if he's still a POI.

I also had a horrible thought about the pressure that some of the PsOI must be under... being back in town... that another "accidental OD" wouldn't be any surprise...
 
Now that the POI's are back in town, I wonder how many PI's are there watching every move they make. I hope there are a lot of them.
 
I've only casually been following the thread recently but I wanted to throw the idea back out there ...

Like any number of other college kids in Indiana who have disappeared over the past few years, the possibility still exists that a drunken and otherwise messed up LS might have died by accident outside the knowledge of anyone.

Wade Steffey, Pat Trainor ...

Wade was found electrocuted in a utility closet on campus after 2 months, Trainor was found in a retention pond in his car. Both were drunk and made a mistake. Nobody was to blame. I know it seems like a stretch with LS but it did with these other two.
 
It's a hell of a "fall-back" since SPEA is tied with the Harvard Kennedy School of Government for the second spot in the US News rankings of public affairs schools.

I see from their website that's true for it's masters program. Interesting. These are undergrads - I wonder if that makes a difference. Back in the 80s when I went there, SPEA was considered somewhat of a joke (and definitely not as competitive as the Business school), but apparently it's standing has improved or at least become more desirable, as has the school (and a lot of state schools), in general.
 
When I went to IU in the 1980s, it was well-known that the AEPis had an extensive "test file" that they kept and shared amongst themselves. Cheating was the norm. As was drugs and other bad behavior. Not a whole lot of chilvalry, there. (Not completely across the board, but pretty darn close.)

I know that most of my friends in a sorority or fraternity have test files, it is definetly normal.
 
Gabby I'd like to ask the "what happened" question about partying to someone with actual data. All I know is IU started marketing the East coast heavily around 2000. After 9/11 parents wanted to send their kids someplace safe. They fell in love with the campus and culture of Bloomington. To a great extent I think the kids brought and continue to bring the party with them. This is the case with Laurens crowd it appears. After receiving a #1 party school rating several years ago the university has clamped down more, e.g., closed down aepi. Speaking if which Greek is still big here and Greeks party.
 
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