IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #23

[Gabby66]

you're backpedaling. If teachers give a test to everyone, that's one thing. I'm talking about tests being stolen - which is what happens - and put in a file to be shared. It's called cheating. Get caught and you get thrown out.

IMO she wasn't backpedaling. The teaches usually DO give the tests to everyone. Sure, some tests are stolen, I would guess, but I don't believe that's common. I could share far worse stories about how the sports players are cheating (and about professors who allow it b/c of "suggestions") than druggies cheating b/c they need to.

Many professors will give you last year's test from which to study. He will change it just enough so that you can't memorize and get an A but if you do memorize last year's questions (and understand each concept), you could often get a B with no problem. Many kids are willing to accept a B to not have to ever go to class.

 

[cluciano63]

Ha Ha Yes, that was me :loser:. My own kids are not angels. They've made some mistakes and have had to own up to them and face (and suffer) consequences. They're great kids, but they're human. Sometimes we learn by making mistakes. IMO it's not the mistake that is so bad, but the lack from being allowed to learn from it.

I get what you are saying in your post (sorry but I snipped it for space). I've seen the same thing - parents making excusies. Generally I think these parents fall into one of three categories:

1. They truly don't believe that their kid made a mistake. I'm not talking about being in denial, but I'm referring to the parents of kids who have been SO well-behaved all of the time.... kids who were on HS honor roll, Eagle Scouts, volunteers, Alter Boys, etc. etc. - very active and involved in church, all around "good" kids who have never once caused trouble. Those kids sometimes go to college where there's no supervision and even when they've been taught right and exhibited only the best behavior, most ALL kids make a few bad choices w/ no one there to guide them. Sometimes those choices have severe consequences and given their past, I think some parents truly can't believe it. Even though some of these boys have drug/alcohol charges, I'd bet that there's nothing in there past which would give parents reason to believe he would ever hide a body.

2. Some are in denial. They have their head so far in the sand and are completely oblivious to their kid's behavior, but they just "expect" he will behave well (with little training). When the behavior is bad, they are in complete denial of it.

3. Some parents know their son behaves badly but they just have so much "hope" that he will improve. When a kid is sent to school with dirty underwear, chances are he won't be able to get them clean. My point is that many parents send off their kids to college, with "baggage". These kids have made mistakes (sometimes BIG ones) and haven't quite worked out their issues. They know that a college education will help their son's future, but without having fixed the issues, will the kid really get that degree? I think they're so hopeful and unsure where to turn. The kid doesn't want help or doesn't think there's a problem. Sometimes it's easier to get him (and his dirty underwear) out of the house. It's not a university's place to clean his underwear, but the parents don't know what else to do. I think these parents think that sending their son off to get a degree with everyone else, will grow him up and "clean his underwear". It sometimes works, b/c he matures, but often not. These parents already know there's a problem with their son but NEED someone else to "fix" it b/c they haven't been able to (and perhaps not for lack of trying). When the kid does something wrong, they blame the school - I honestly think this is out of desperation b/c they so badly want their son to be on a better track.

I guess I tend to understand why parents do this. It's wrong, but I understand it. I think some parents are so desperate and want to help their kid and it's just easier to blame others. It's sad. For me, I think my kids would probably prefer a prison sentence than have to be cooped up at home with me drilling them! :floorlaugh:

The reasons my sister often hears is more about protecting their kids' future-nothing to do with whether or not the child actually did the thing he or she is accused of or not; they don't care so much about that part, as long as there are no consequences for the kid that might mess up his future. Not so much based on what they might really believe about their child, or being naive, etc...just the opposite. JMO

 

[Gabby66]

C'mon, the big 10 schools are always well represented on those lists. It isn't because the midwest is being corrupted by the east coasters.

My comments were in reply to someone who had suggested that people from LS's circle have been heavily recruited by IU. I can understand that. Many parents want to get their kids away from the proximity of the large cities. I can see why parents would fall in love with Bloomington. However if those kids had connections to drugs before, those connections can stay close. I'm not blaming Easterners. I think this would be the case also if kids are coming from other areas such as Miami and areas in CA where drugs are also easy to obtain. However, the poster didn't say that students were recruited from those areas.

I'm saying that there is definitely a different culture/mindset here, and a lot more drugs. The type of work and experience that I have would allow me to see and understand that. I've lived in the South, Midwest, and East. Drugs are everywhere. I haven't quite grasped the reason for the different type and amount of use here, but it's obvious, and my guess is the prevalence to NYC, DC, and other cities. It seems more available and more hard-core here. In the Midwest, you have only Chicago, and its' not like transport to Chicago is as easy as NYC. The Midwest is also very rural, making it more difficult for those areas to get the drugs that are available here. There is also more of a black market crime here, making younger kids able to afford their "supplies". I can't even begin to explain it to people who haven't lived it or who are unaware. We live in a very nice, affluent town. There are a LOT of good kids here from great families. The public schools are ranked very high. We are also in a college town, with a large university. It's a very family-friendly environment so I had NO idea that there would be a sub-culture like I'm describing. IT exists and it's ugly. I see it from my work and I'd never have guessed it either.

If you look at Playboy's Top 10 Party Schools, you'll see that the Big 10 is only represented twice. Their #2 is Penn State, also closely proximate to the areas I pointed out earlier.

 

[OldSteve]

Yes, the pressure. I do have compassion for those innocent. They will have to party in private. I hope it does not lead to excess resulting in tragedy. Thanks for bringing this up. I've thought about this but it helps to say it out loud.

I imagine they (POI's) have to be very guarded and wondering if LE or a PI is following there every move, maybe even bugging their rooms... also suspicious of new "friends" who maybe trying to learn what they can.
If any are guilty, then no sympathy. But if innocent, then no sure...

If they are guilty, I would think something should shake loose in the coming months. My gut feeling is it was a crime of random opportunity, or a drug dealer not in the picture.

 

[cspring]

Is there really a billboard across the street from 5 north of lauren?

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

:woohoo:

As far as their level of intoxication or impairment while many points can be raised showing LS being intoxicated (leaving her shoes and phone at the bar,a comment from one witness at smallwood referring to a severely intoxicated LS,the video of them leaving smallwood, her loosing her keys in the alley)other than his lawyer and POI roommate I do not see one fact,witness or anything that points to CR being impaired.

My comments were in reply to someone who had suggested that people from LS's circle have been heavily recruited by IU. I can understand that. Many parents want to get their kids away from the proximity of the large cities. I can see why parents would fall in love with Bloomington. However if those kids had connections to drugs before, those connections can stay close. I'm not blaming Easterners. I think this would be the case also if kids are coming from other areas such as Miami and areas in CA where drugs are also easy to obtain. However, the poster didn't say that students were recruited from those areas.

I'm saying that there is definitely a different culture/mindset here, and a lot more drugs. The type of work and experience that I have would allow me to see and understand that. I've lived in the South, Midwest, and East. Drugs are everywhere. I haven't quite grasped the reason for the different type and amount of use here, but it's obvious, and my guess is the prevalence to NYC, DC, and other cities. It seems more available and more hard-core here. In the Midwest, you have only Chicago, and its' not like transport to Chicago is as easy as NYC. The Midwest is also very rural, making it more difficult for those areas to get the drugs that are available here. There is also more of a black market crime here, making younger kids able to afford their "supplies". I can't even begin to explain it to people who haven't lived it or who are unaware. We live in a very nice, affluent town. There are a LOT of good kids here from great families. The public schools are ranked very high. We are also in a college town, with a large university. It's a very family-friendly environment so I had NO idea that there would be a sub-culture like I'm describing. IT exists and it's ugly. I see it from my work and I'd never have guessed it either.

If you look at Playboy's Top 10 Party Schools, you'll see that the Big 10 is only represented twice. Their #2 is Penn State, also closely proximate to the areas I pointed out earlier.

We are...Penn State! (My school. )

 

[IndyMom]

http://www.lohud.com/article/201109...diana-campus?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|News|p
-CR and MB have also returned to the same apartment
-JR is still hanging out with CR and MB

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110903/NEWS02/109030336
-RS and CS have moved into an apt in Bloomington with no plans of returning to NY
-CS says she reads everything online (Hi, CS!?)
-They mention that police do not seem to be monitoring online chatter, so they pass along info!

These are both great articles! The first one gives me hope that a reporter will catch JR drunk at some point and maybe he'll say something he shouldn't say.

This part from the second article caught my attention, talking about RS and CS:

"They noted that police have asked all of the persons of interest to take lie-detector tests but that "just one person did." They wouldn't name that person, keeping details that police share with them private."

 

[Skigirl]

And there's been a lot of people asking about why MB or especially JR would let a drunk/vulnerable girl just walk out into the night. Well, didn't these 'friends' at Smallwood do essentially the same thing (after the CR altercation)?

Well, when she left Smallwood, she was with someone instead of alone. Even if her companion was intoxicated, it seems a little safer than a woman alone at 4:30 AM (though admittedly, neither are ideal).

It's still not clear to me which friends knew what about her whereabouts - for example, did her roommates even know she was in the building during the altercation, or did it just sound like some commotion in the hallway?

 

[Skigirl]

I'm saying that there is definitely a different culture/mindset here, and a lot more drugs. The type of work and experience that I have would allow me to see and understand that. I've lived in the South, Midwest, and East. Drugs are everywhere. I haven't quite grasped the reason for the different type and amount of use here, but it's obvious, and my guess is the prevalence to NYC, DC, and other cities. It seems more available and more hard-core here. In the Midwest, you have only Chicago, and its' not like transport to Chicago is as easy as NYC. The Midwest is also very rural, making it more difficult for those areas to get the drugs that are available here. There is also more of a black market crime here, making younger kids able to afford their "supplies". I can't even begin to explain it to people who haven't lived it or who are unaware. We live in a very nice, affluent town. There are a LOT of good kids here from great families. The public schools are ranked very high. We are also in a college town, with a large university. It's a very family-friendly environment so I had NO idea that there would be a sub-culture like I'm describing. IT exists and it's ugly. I see it from my work and I'd never have guessed it either.

If you look at Playboy's Top 10 Party Schools, you'll see that the Big 10 is only represented twice. Their #2 is Penn State, also closely proximate to the areas I pointed out earlier.

Wow, Gabby, I have to respectfully disagree; or at least say that your experience is very different from my own if you mean "here" is the E. Coast.

I grew up about 20 minutes from Lauren, and I went to one of the other big ten schools not terribly far from IU (albeit in my entirely biased opinion, far superior ;-)). I also have lived in the South and in Western Pennsylvania and in two different New England states.

In my experience, drugs are FAR more common in poor rural areas away from the East Coast - especially the totally-addictive-will-make-you-look-like-an-addict and your-teeth-will-fall-out variety, like meth or crack. In Westchester kids smoked pot and even did an occasional line of coke or hit of acid, but it was strictly recreational for the people I knew. Sure, there were substance abuse problems, but my guess is that most of the people I knew or knew of who had substance abuse problems would have found problems of one sort or another.

Western PA, rural midwest, rural south and in the more remote parts of Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont... totally different story. More drugs. More lifestyle users. More meth. More crack. More heroin. More habitual users - a lot of it bound up in poverty and who knows what's cause and what's effect. Where are they getting their supplies? I have no idea. I would guess that a lot of it is grown or concocted locally - but obviously not all of it.

It really isn't harder to get drugs into rural areas than it is urban areas since if drugs are going to be stopped it's likely to be at a border and not on a highway - goods find their way to where the demand is - and there is no shortage of demand in the rural US. I think it may be true that in more affluent parts of the East Coast there is more coke - but I would be willing to bet not more than affluent parts of Michigan, or affluent areas around Cincinnati, or Cleveland, or Pittsburgh, or really anywhere there is affluence.

 

[Darcyline]

Thank you for all of the useful posts today! I hope CS reads more of the supportive stuff than some of the negative stuff I see elsewhere (victim blaming to the 10th degree). She is a very strong woman.

Anyone want to take bets on who took the only LE lie detector test? All POIs were asked and we still don't know the exact list-CR, JR, MB, ZO, JW, JR's maybe guest presumably. Maybe JW?

 

[Jupiter812]

I'm discouraged to hear about JR enjoying a Heinie and walking down to his buds' apt. It makes him appear less guilty. Part of me wants him to say and do stupid things so I can analyze and render him guilty. But the reality is many of these kids will resume their lives without much looking back. Some of them will have to watch their temper.

 

[Jupiter812]

Thank you for all of the useful posts today! I hope CS reads more of the supportive stuff than some of the negative stuff I see elsewhere (victim blaming to the 10th degree). She is a very strong woman.

Anyone want to take bets on who took the only LE lie detector test? All POIs were asked and we still don't know the exact list-CR, JR, MB, ZO, JW, JR's maybe guest presumably. Maybe JW?

I listed the big four yesterday. It was not CR nor JR.

JW maybe.
DR maybe unless he partied at JRs which he probably did.

 

[Gabby66]

Wow, Gabby, I have to respectfully disagree; or at least say that your experience is very different from my own if you mean "here" is the E. Coast.

I grew up about 20 minutes from Lauren, and I went to one of the other big ten schools not terribly far from IU (albeit in my entirely biased opinion, far superior ;-)). I also have lived in the South and in Western Pennsylvania and in two different New England states.

In my experience, drugs are FAR more common in poor rural areas away from the East Coast - especially the totally-addictive-will-make-you-look-like-an-addict and your-teeth-will-fall-out variety, like meth or crack. In Westchester kids smoked pot and even did an occasional line of coke or hit of acid, but it was strictly recreational for the people I knew. Sure, there were substance abuse problems, but my guess is that most of the people I knew or knew of who had substance abuse problems would have found problems of one sort or another.

Western PA, rural midwest, rural south and in the more remote parts of Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont... totally different story. More drugs. More lifestyle users. More meth. More crack. More heroin. More habitual users - a lot of it bound up in poverty and who knows what's cause and what's effect. Where are they getting their supplies? I have no idea. I would guess that a lot of it is grown or concocted locally - but obviously not all of it.

It really isn't harder to get drugs into rural areas than it is urban areas since if drugs are going to be stopped it's likely to be at a border and not on a highway - goods find their way to where the demand is - and there is no shortage of demand in the rural US. I think it may be true that in more affluent parts of the East Coast there is more coke - but I would be willing to bet not more than affluent parts of Michigan, or affluent areas around Cincinnati, or Cleveland, or Pittsburgh, or really anywhere there is affluence.

Thanks for your comments. I think you may have either misunderstood or I wasn't very clear. I'm not living along the COAST. I was responding to someone who said that IU recruited in the east coast. I said that I moved "out east", but I do not really live along the coast. ITA with you about the rural parts having more drugs but I truly believe that's b/c of the close proximity to NYC, Philly, and DC. Of course the Midwest is going to have it too, but just not as prevalent IMO. In my experience (personally and professionally) the drugs in the rural areas of Midwest and South are different. I've heard that some areas of central PA have among the highest heroin addictions in the nation. These people have traffickers coming in from NYC to supply their habit. In the Midwest it just doesn't seem to be as readily available (only one large city- Chicago) but I'm not saying it isn't there because it is.

You also comment about the people "you knew". It's interesting to me how much drug use, mafia, and black market goes on in our local public high school and how few parents even know about it. Unless you have a kid who is caught up in it, or involved through your profession, or teach in the schools, or are LE, you likely wouldn't know. The scary thing is that MANY kids really are involved and their parents have no idea, not b/c they're in denial, but because it's very very hushed here. I could share some shocking stories but will refrain. I've been told by LE that they'd love to have drug dogs in the school but that the district won't allow it. Huh? Another sign that points to "hushing" it IMO.

I simply do not believe that kids one day wake up and say, "Hmmmmm I think I want to try a new drug. It's not available in my town, but I'll drive a few hours and find someone off the street and buy it." Nope, they are "exposed" to it by a friend/acquaintance who knew someone who knew someone. The drug has to be available. I think some areas have more availability than others and my experience is that b/c of the proximity, it's just simply more available here in the east - I cannot speak to whether that is more or less along the coast, but I'm talking eastern area in general. You may want to read this article. It's really good:

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/pennsylvania-drug-addiction-rehabilitation-treatment.html

 

[Gabby66]

I'm discouraged to hear about JR enjoying a Heinie and walking down to his buds' apt. It makes him appear less guilty. Part of me wants him to say and do stupid things so I can analyze and render him guilty. But the reality is many of these kids will resume their lives without much looking back. Some of them will have to watch their temper.

I'm respectfully curious. What if he IS innocent? I am leaning toward him being guilty, but what if he isn't? I say this b/c I really feel for those who are innocent (and I don't believe that they ALL had a part in hiding a body). They have each experienced a traumatic event however, and I do hope they can heal and carry on, moving forward in their lives while hopefully having learned some lesson in all of this.

 

[cspring]

Thanks for your comments. I think you may have either misunderstood or I wasn't very clear. I'm not living along the COAST. I was responding to someone who said that IU recruited in the east coast. I said that I moved "out east", but I do not really live along the coast. ITA with you about the rural parts having more drugs but I truly believe that's b/c of the close proximity to NYC, Philly, and DC. Of course the Midwest is going to have it too, but just not as prevalent IMO. In my experience (personally and professionally) the drugs in the rural areas of Midwest and South are different. I've heard that some areas of central PA have among the highest heroin addictions in the nation. These people have traffickers coming in from NYC to supply their habit. In the Midwest it just doesn't seem to be as readily available (only one large city- Chicago) but I'm not saying it isn't there because it is.

You also comment about the people "you knew". It's interesting to me how much drug use, mafia, and black market goes on in our local public high school and how few parents even know about it. Unless you have a kid who is caught up in it, or involved through your profession, or teach in the schools, or are LE, you likely wouldn't know. The scary thing is that MANY kids really are involved and their parents have no idea, not b/c they're in denial, but because it's very very hushed here. I could share some shocking stories but will refrain. I've been told by LE that they'd love to have drug dogs in the school but that the district won't allow it. Huh? Another sign that points to "hushing" it IMO.

I simply do not believe that kids one day wake up and say, "Hmmmmm I think I want to try a new drug. It's not available in my town, but I'll drive a few hours and find someone off the street and buy it." Nope, they are "exposed" to it by a friend/acquaintance who knew someone who knew someone. The drug has to be available. I think some areas have more availability than others and my experience is that b/c of the proximity, it's just simply more available here in the east - I cannot speak to whether that is more or less along the coast, but I'm talking eastern area in general. You may want to read this article. It's really good:

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/pennsylvania-drug-addiction-rehabilitation-treatment.html

I know here in indy its heavy pill use, crack and heroin. I moved here from texas when i was 29 and down there it was all about the meth.
Its ridiculously easy to get what u want wherever u r. Sad and scary-my kids r about to be teenagers!

 

[imkeylime]

The reasons my sister often hears is more about protecting their kids' future-nothing to do with whether or not the child actually did the thing he or she is accused of or not; they don't care so much about that part, as long as there are no consequences for the kid that might mess up his future. Not so much based on what they might really believe about their child, or being naive, etc...just the opposite. JMO

IMO, there's a sense of entitlement invading education that's dangerous. I used to teach community-college English, and many of my colleagues speak of students who "expect" an "A" because they're paying tuition. Maybe it's a reflection of the economy, but I suspect it's more than that, since it's evidenced at other levels as well.

Helicopter parents don't help, either. I've actually had a mother call me because her daughter's boyfriend (ex, it turns out) was calling my daughter, and she didn't want her daughter to get hurt. I'm not sure what I was supposed to do about that ...

I do think this type of mentality could affect the case. I don't blame anyone who's a POI and saw LS that night for lawyering up, but sweeping it under the rug isn't going to make the fact that she's missing go away, either.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Gabby, I'm not sure of the exact stats, but I believe that heroin is a major problem in (at least some areas of) PA. My mentor just got funded for a "Cure Grant" in collaboration with a bunch of different labs, including some that are involved in treating opiate addiction and have participated in clinical trials. We are studying heroin use and addiction. The only way you can be funded by the PA Dept of Health for this, no matter how good your science may be, is that experts have to testify that your topic is significant to the health "of all Pennsylvanians." Apparently heroin use fits that description.

 

[luna80]

I'm discouraged to hear about JR enjoying a Heinie and walking down to his buds' apt. It makes him appear less guilty. Part of me wants him to say and do stupid things so I can analyze and render him guilty. But the reality is many of these kids will resume their lives without much looking back. Some of them will have to watch their temper.

What if he isn't guilty? I'm so leery of jumping to any conclusion, I wouldn't want someone to to that to me.

Added at 5:38PM

Sorry Jupiter, I have to take that back, I speak with forked tongue. I have most certainly speculated, if not guilt, poor character upon others. I sincerely apologize, you were speaking from your heart, you were being real and I was taking the high road because I think JR's innocent. Shame on me.

 

[Jupiter812]

I'm respectfully curious. What if he IS innocent? I am leaning toward him being guilty, but what if he isn't? I say this b/c I really feel for those who are innocent (and I don't believe that they ALL had a part in hiding a body). They have each experienced a traumatic event however, and I do hope they can heal and carry on, moving forward in their lives while hopefully having learned some lesson in all of this.

Then I go back to Northsider's scenario which makes the most sense but it lacks any known POI or any known anything(!) She partied with a lesser known group of people at a DD 's house and ODed there. For this to happen I think JR's 4:30 time is off.

On a personal level I need to start detaching mentally and emotionally and start practicing acceptance of what is.

 

[phantomthought]

What if he isn't guilty? I'm so leery of jumping to any conclusion, I wouldn't want someone to to that to me.

Then he and his lawyer should meet with LE and do everything possible to help the police clear him as a suspect so LE can focus their resources in another direction.If he wants to play games with lie detector test whether he talks to the parents and if he allows himself to be interviewed I have absolutely no sympathy for him.