IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[AbbeyR]

Okay, I'm overposting, I know! Last one:

In an earlier post, I wondered if the 'anonymous insider' that Tony Gatto was basing his information on was somehow connected to Corey Rossman, since most of the breaking news had to do with things that took CR out of the equation and drew attention to someone else. (Anonymous source saw Lauren with a mystery man, who was not CR. CR was not at the bar with Lauren, CR ran down the alley alone, and Lauren followed... etc. All turned out not to be true)

I also noticed Tony posted this on his blog: (June 20, 2011, 11:49 am)

Rohn also tweeted for people to come out on June 4. And he’s on video during the search and IMO looks like he is genuinely looking for his missing friend. I want to make clear — I think Corey Rossman is not involved in this and he has been the most forthcoming. Again, IMO, subject to change as details are made available. As a person whose mission is to seek the fact, I would like to hear more from JR. But I understand he has every right to hire an attorney and not talk in public.

Since Tony was obviously contacting people like BW/HT and offering anonymity for information, I'm now wondering if it's possible CR himself (or MB?) was a source. Because who else would have seen CR leave Smallwood, for example or known that part of the story? The altercation happened on the 5th floor, and the only information we have about them leaving the building is the description of the security video from Smallwood that only has CR and LS on it. Also, how else could CR appear to be 'forthcoming', since publicly all we knew was that he had 'amnesia' and couldn't remember anything?

Just 'thinking outloud'...

I wonder what Tony's policy is on information from anonymous sources. In some cases, if the information turns out not to be true, the anonymity deal is off. IMO, if people deliberately give the media false information, they deserve to be doxed.

 

[Houston Mom]

http://newsandtribune.com/x2055652468/Skeletal-remains-found-in-Jeffersonville

Skeletal remains found behind church in Jeffersonville, Ind.

 

[AbbeyR]

Yes, this was 11 days after Lauren disappeared, that's pretty darn close to two weeks. I have seen this before but, again, it was good to watch it again, with "new" eyes and ears. Thank you for posting Abbey! It was interesting to listen to HT, it seems, IMO, that, in this interview, that she may have doubts about certain people but then quickly changes her mind and completely refocuses on a random abduction. She seems conflicted. Why? She definitively defends JW, that much is true.

Would anyone know whether she has taken a lie detector test and/or is represented by an attorney? I haven't seen anything with regard to either but I may have missed it somehow.

Many thanks!

I just wanted to answer Kadence because she has asked twice about HT taking a polygraph. I don't believe this has ever been mentioned in the media. HT was not named as a POI, and has never given any indication that she even has a lawyer. She said she was at home that night, and no one has suggested otherwise. Since she lives at Smallwood, this would have been easy to verify. So, the only thing really in question, IMO is whether she knows more than she has told the media. We don't actually know what she has told LE, and even if they were suspicious that she knew more as well, I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing someone would be asked to take a polygraph about....

In other words, I have no idea -- those are just my thoughts on the issue.

And I also think what you mentioned is worth pointing out again, to be fair in the HT/BW discussion. They have both expressed doubt about what happened to the media. In the video above, HT does seem somewhat unsure. She both defends JR and JW to the media, but also considers (and then dismisses) the possibility that they could be involved. In two videos, she mentions that JW wasn't talking (though it's to her, not LE, and she doesn't mention the more obvious fact that she is speaking for JR, who no one had heard from at all at that time). BW on the other hand, was not speaking up for the POI at all, just trying to bring attention to Lauren's case. I remember her specifically saying (in the People article, I think) that she didn't know what happened, but that the POI needed to come forward and tell everything they knew.

I also want to add that while I've been critical of why HT decided to speak for JR, I'm reminded reading all this that she was the only way that story could be told, since JR was not talking to the media or releasing a statement through his lawyers. So her motive may not have actually been to tell his story for him, but simply to tell the story and get it out to the media. Not defending her, just trying to think through all of these possibilities.

 

[imkeylime]

Yeah, as I said, the shoes and cell I really dunno about. I had forgotten about the jacket but even if it did have pockets....I have been known to lose things that fell out of pockets when I had the piece of clothing slung over my shoulder, draped over my arm, over the back of a chair, etc...honestly I'm very bad about it which is why I get paranoid when I'm out. But I have never lost my phone (for more than ten min) or shoes! I do take my shoes off a lot, even when I'm out, because I usually sit with my legs crossed under me, but it is really hard to walk away barefoot and not realize that something's missing...right?

I do find it hard to think she'd walk away shoeless w/o taking her shoes, with the disclaimer that there's a good chance she just couldn't find them. OTOH, she might have liked the freedom of being barefoot that night ... who knows?

I've definitely considered that someone moved her stuff. But I also can't help wondering if she and CR planned on going back to Sports after getting something from SW.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/indiana/skeletal-remains-found-behind-s-ind-church
http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...ound-wooded-area-behind-Jeffersonville-church
http://www.wdrb.com/story/21828592/sourc


Once again, the Spierers and many other families will be waiting for the identification of human remains found in southern Indiana. Hoping that the remains will be quickly identified. Speculation seems to be centering on the case of 27-year-old Stephen Reedy who disappeared in that area in September of 2011.

I can't even imagine going thru this. Lauren's family is so strong.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I do find it hard to think she'd walk away shoeless w/o taking her shoes, with the disclaimer that there's a good chance she just couldn't find them. OTOH, she might have liked the freedom of being barefoot that night ... who knows?

I've definitely considered that someone moved her stuff. But I also can't help wondering if she and CR planned on going back to Sports after getting something from SW.

I don't know...I think she was just to out of it to even notice her shoes.

 

[deca]

I don't know...I think she was just to out of it to even notice her shoes.

My roommates in college occasionally walked home barefoot (about 1/3 mile from the bar). They were dumb and stopped doing it when they stepped in glass and I had to pick it out with tweezers one night. I asked them why they would do that and they didn't really have a good reason. Rebelling against the norm? IDK.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

My roommates in college occasionally walked home barefoot (about 1/3 mile from the bar). They were dumb and stopped doing it when they stepped in glass and I had to pick it out with tweezers one night. I asked them why they would do that and they didn't really have a good reason. Rebelling against the norm? IDK.

Oh yeah, I run around with no shoes all the time; it's the hippy in me. I just don't really see Lauren like that. This is a girl that was voted best dressed, very into fashion, going to intern at Anthropologie. She just doesn't strike me as a girl that would tolerate 'grocery store feet' very well.
And, I lost lots of stuff when I was drunk and/or high. Including my shoes.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

This is probably stupid, and just jumping off the quoted post, but...I have wondered a lot about HT. With regard to "she just went too far this time" (paraphrased) I have been wondering if it could be explained as HT maybe believing that Lauren did OD or trust the wrong people when partying, which is what led to her disappearance. Maybe (or not, just speculating) HT had believed that she (Lauren) had had "near misses" related to her partying in the past. Or maybe she (HT) was freaked out by Lauren's disappearance and was trying to make sense of it in a way that allowed her (HT) to minimize how vulnerable she felt...sorry, not sure how to say this concisely! Eg., jmo, it is in some sense less threatening to one's own sense of security if we can blame the victim for an apparently random or unpredictable or inexplicable misfortune. It is not easy to admit that we can do everything "right" to keep ourselves safe but still become a victim. It is not easy to admit that even the people we feel comfortable with, our friends, could be the bad guys. It is not easy to hear Lauren's story and think, "It could've been me!" we like to think we control what happens to us, and as a result we let ourselves think that other people control what happens to them, too...so when I think of HT saying Lauren took it a little too far, I sort of hear her distancing herself from the situation, not in a mean or deceitful way, but just because that's how her mind is rationalizing a chaotic situation.

Jmo, of course, and sorry for the long-winded ness...and no one needs to tell me there's a lot of projection on my part. :blushing:

Ok, so let me just say right up front that I know you didn't mean this any kind of bad way or anything like that so I don't want to come across as having taken offense or anything like that. I don't even want you to think I'm directing my forth coming rant at you at all! It's just that the whole 'victim blaming' issue is one that just really really rubs me the wrong way, and I have to say that while I disagree strongly I do so respectfully. I'm about to go way OT here so I apologize, this is just a hot button for me.
I know all about the cognitive dissonance line of thinking regarding victim blaming and frankly I think it's whole buncha bull****. We don't blame the victim when it's something else, like a school shooting or a terrorist attack. No one blames the victim in those cases because it's ridiculous as well as morally reprehensible. Those types of occurrences are certainly no less worrisome and in some ways they induce more anxiety due to their complete randomness, but still it doesn't happen in those situations. When does it happen? Really. Be honest and you'll know victim blaming is reserved almost exclusively, not entirely, but almost, for women, women that are victims of sexual assault or domestic violence. Some may even say that being a victim of domestic violence is largely avoidable, at least to the extent that a woman usually some choice in who she marries. In that case, where is the fear on the part of the victim blamer? They shouldn't have any need to reassure themselves that aren't going to suddenly and randomly become the victim of domestic violence! In my opinion, and everyone is certainly welcome to a hold different one, but for me, the vast majority of victim blaming doesn't fall within the scope of cognitive dissonance. It falls within 2 other categories. The first is all about meanness, judgement, condescension and even sociopathic tendencies and a subconscious belief that women do not own or have a right to their own sexuality. The second is about guilt. Very often victim blaming occurs when the blamer has a belief that they either could have or should have intervened, but they didn't. It's only in this case that cognitive dissonance plays a role but it's about the blamer and their own self image and reinforcing their belief that they are a good and honorable person. They blame in this case as a way to reconcile their own inaction with their self perceptions (or delusions as the case may be). In any case, it's not about fear. In fact, this type of blamer likely holds little fear of being victimized in the same way because unlike themselves, they view the victim as not good and not honorable, thus deserving. Either way it is always self serving. Regardless of the emotional upheaval we feel about acts of violence on others we are still responsible for how we act, how we treat others and what we say. There is no psychological construct that absolves us from our humanity. Allowing oneself to exist so firmly in ego, relinquishing compassion and empathy is in direct opposition to being good and honorable. How anyone can 'trick' their mind into believing they can be one without having the other is something I will never be able to grok.
........annnd breathe.
sorry for being crazy. I can't help it!

 

[imkeylime]

Oh yeah, I run around with no shoes all the time; it's the hippy in me. I just don't really see Lauren like that. This is a girl that was voted best dressed, very into fashion, going to intern at Anthropologie. She just doesn't strike me as a girl that would tolerate 'grocery store feet' very well.
And, I lost lots of stuff when I was drunk and/or high. Including my shoes.

My daughter loves to go barefoot. She left for last year's Memorial Day parade without shoes ... and came back with very cold feet!

But I agree about LS. Ironically, a sign over her bed read “Hippies use backdoor: no exceptions!” That cracks me up!

BTW, Happy Easter to all of you. Despite the circumstances, it's heartening to see the thought and concern given to the search for LS.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Ok, so let me just say right up front that I know you didn't mean this any kind of bad way or anything like that so I don't want to come across as having taken offense or anything like that. I don't even want you to think I'm directing my forth coming rant at you at all! It's just that the whole 'victim blaming' issue is one that just really really rubs me the wrong way, and I have to say that while I disagree strongly I do so respectfully. I'm about to go way OT here so I apologize, this is just a hot button for me.
I know all about the cognitive dissonance line of thinking regarding victim blaming and frankly I think it's whole buncha bull****. We don't blame the victim when it's something else, like a school shooting or a terrorist attack. No one blames the victim in those cases because it's ridiculous as well as morally reprehensible. Those types of occurrences are certainly no less worrisome and in some ways they induce more anxiety due to their complete randomness, but still it doesn't happen in those situations. When does it happen? Really. Be honest and you'll know victim blaming is reserved almost exclusively, not entirely, but almost, for women, women that are victims of sexual assault or domestic violence. Some may even say that being a victim of domestic violence is largely avoidable, at least to the extent that a woman usually some choice in who she marries. In that case, where is the fear on the part of the victim blamer? They shouldn't have any need to reassure themselves that aren't going to suddenly and randomly become the victim of domestic violence! In my opinion, and everyone is certainly welcome to a hold different one, but for me, the vast majority of victim blaming doesn't fall within the scope of cognitive dissonance. It falls within 2 other categories. The first is all about meanness, judgement, condescension and even sociopathic tendencies and a subconscious belief that women do not own or have a right to their own sexuality. The second is about guilt. Very often victim blaming occurs when the blamer has a belief that they either could have or should have intervened, but they didn't. It's only in this case that cognitive dissonance plays a role but it's about the blamer and their own self image and reinforcing their belief that they are a good and honorable person. They blame in this case as a way to reconcile their own inaction with their self perceptions (or delusions as the case may be). In any case, it's not about fear. In fact, this type of blamer likely holds little fear of being victimized in the same way because unlike themselves, they view the victim as not good and not honorable, thus deserving. Either way it is always self serving. Regardless of the emotional upheaval we feel about acts of violence on others we are still responsible for how we act, how we treat others and what we say. There is no psychological construct that absolves us from our humanity. Allowing oneself to exist so firmly in ego, relinquishing compassion and empathy is in direct opposition to being good and honorable. How anyone can 'trick' their mind into believing they can be one without having the other is something I will never be able to grok.
........annnd breathe.
sorry for being crazy. I can't help it!

BBM : I couldn't possibly agree more. If I haven't said it before, I will say it now: reasons aren't excuses, IMO. It is just my nature to look for reasons, but I want to be clear that that doesn't mean I want to excuse or justify the behavior. IMO, the fact that there are valid reasons for a behavior doesn't mean that it is "ok".

You aren't crazy! You have a different perspective than I do, and I respect it and am glad you gave me some more to think about.

 

[AbbeyR]

OK - do I have this right according to the lohud one year anniversary article

Shoes and cell phone left at Klroy's (purse too?)
Keys and student ID dropped in lot
Fake ID and Smallwood key card with her at JR's

Was she wearing clothing with pockets?

It seems strange that she would be carrying four small items in her hand, and also strange that she would have any of them still with her by the time she got to JR's, considering her condition, falls, etc. But there are so many things about the evening that seem strange...

Weren't the keys and student ID in a small purse or wristlet? Why wouldn't her other ID and key card have been in that too?

(Edited to add quote)

IU student AJ Amin, 19, told The Journal News on Friday that he saw a small purple pouch with a gold key shortly before 3 a.m. that morning on the sidewalk near that building. He said he left it there and that a friend of his put it on a railing when he saw it there a few hours later.

Like you, I really doubt she was carrying anything in her hands by the time she got to JR's, given the state that she was in when she got there. And if they were in a pocket (if she had pockets) how would JR know she had them? Like the rest of JR's story, this detail seems weird and out of context.

We don't know if these two things were ever found, do we?

I'm guessing the point was not that she left them at his place, but that he wanted people to know that he somehow saw them, so thought she was capable of walking home and able to enter her apartment? JMO.

 

[akh]

I'm guessing the point was not that she left them at his place, but that he wanted people to know that he somehow saw them, so thought she was capable of walking home and able to enter her apartment? JMO.

But why make up a detail that could ultimately be proven wrong? More importantly, a detail that would have no significance in the grand scheme of things, unless it was a made up detail that caught him in a lie? What if those items turned up after he made that statement, buried in the sand at Kilroy's for example? What if LE actually had/has those items? He wouldn't know if they have them or not so would it be worth the risk of lying about them just to try and save a little face? In fact none of us really know if LE have them or not right now.

Break it down further: For the story he's telling he's already saying he let her leave in a less than sober condition, by herself, at 4:30AM. How mitigating would it really be to add she had her key card and thus imply he was sure she'd have no problem getting in at her apartment? It's exactly the kind of detail that could trip up a lie and it's value as a lie would be almost nil at best. Certainly not worth the risk as a guilty man trying to create a cover story, or as an honest man simply trying to make himself look a little better after watching her leave and not walking her home.

I would venture to guess, even if he was involved in her disappearance, that there was a good chance he actually saw she had those items (or in cleaning up the crime scene he/they found her key card and got rid of it).

I would actually be more curious to know if she was worried about the items we know she lost. Or at least what he said about that. I think it would be surprising to learn she had no concern about those items.

And all of this just made me think of something.... Maybe it's been asked and answered in these past months already...
When did JR tell police she used his phone because she was trying to find her lost phone? When did it become public knowledge that she'd lost her phone? Would that info have been available to him before he told that story to authorities?

 

[bx2]

And all of this just made me think of something.... Maybe it's been asked and answered in these past months already...
When did JR tell police she used his phone because she was trying to find her lost phone? When did it become public knowledge that she'd lost her phone? Would that info have been available to him before he told that story to authorities?

JR would most likely have known pretty quickly about the phone, possibly even before she was reported missing. The timeline of events from the day after is still a bit murky, but with the amount of shared friends this group has, details like JW retrieving the phone from Kilroys would have made the rounds very quickly once calls/texts/stop bys started going.

I believe we the public first heard about the call from HT (who presumably was passing the info along from JR). This was also when it was mentioned that it was her making the call, not JR. The rationale for the call has remained inconsistent from different rumors.

Oh, and like you I find the seemingly innocuous detail about the ID and keycard an important glimpse. It very well could be trying to cover for something after the fact, or he may be just mistaken about what he saw, but it's the very type of thing that gets you caught in a lie, that all of these guys have managed to avoid up til now. Edit to add, while getting prepped for some of the searches, we did hear about jewelry and certain items like the phone and purse that LE had in possession. Did not ever hear about these items, which if true that she had them with her would seemingly be tantamount to locating her... but maybe it was just a detail that they wanted to keep hidden or they didn't know at the time, kinda odd.

 

[AbbeyR]

Good points about the ID and key card, Akh. I just find it a strange detail, I guess, that he would notice exactly what ID she was carrying with her.

I think the info about the phone came from HT. On June 12, she gave this account, via Lohud:

Said Tamir, "(Rosenbaum) was with Lauren that night, and he was the last person to see her as she walked out of his house ... he made that very clear that Friday when we first realized she was missing and I believe him."

He told police he saw her round a corner toward home shortly after 4 a.m.

http://web.archive.org/web/20110616122255/http://www.lohud.com/article/20110613/NEWS02/106130325

In this article, she also tells the story of the lost phone and Kilroy's contacting Jesse.

Then the article was updated 2 days later to include this:

Tamir, who has spoken with Rosenbaum since then, said Monday that he had tried to prevent her from leaving.

"He told me he tried to make her stay and sleep on his couch but she refused, so finally after trying to convince her, she left," Tamir told The Journal News.

"He told me he watched her leave and told her, 'If you stumble then I'm going to make you come back in here.' But he watched her leave and she seemed fine so he just let her go," Tamir said.

Before leaving, Tamir said, Spierer used Rosenbaum's phone to call Rohn to see if he knew where her phone was.

Chapman, who represented Rohn in a prior public intoxication case and spoke with him in recent days about his interactions with Spierer, would only say that that "somebody" called Rohn at 4:15 a.m. and that "he didn't answer his phone because he was in bed."

He did say that police questioned Rohn.

"It's pretty clear that the police looked at his phone," Chapman said. "They wanted to talk to him and everything seemed copacetic."

Rosenbaum told police he last saw Spierer rounding a corner toward her building. Police said they have no video evidence of that.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...w-details-her-night-parents-TV?nclick_check=1

So why do you guys think JR/HT included the phone call -- and specifically Lauren making it -- in the story to the media? And why mention only one call, if there were two, and both went unanswered?

 

[bx2]

I think the info about the phone came from HT. On June 12, she gave this account, via Lohud:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110616122255/http://www.lohud.com/article/20110613/NEWS02/106130325

In this article, she also tells the story of the lost phone and Kilroy's contacting Jesse.

Then the article was updated 2 days later to include this:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...w-details-her-night-parents-TV?nclick_check=1

I remember analyzing this quote before, and it seeming odd, but I think it finally clicked:

(BBM) "Said Tamir, "(Rosenbaum) was with Lauren that night, and he was the last person to see her as she walked out of his house...he made that very clear that Friday when we first realized she was missing and I believe him."

My own question was always on why was he "making it clear". Why would he need to clarify that he was the last to see her as she walked out of his house if there was no one else there? That's what he was doing here IMO, trying to make clear that no one at his house was involved.

So why do you guys think JR/HT included the phone call -- and specifically Lauren making it -- in the story to the media? And why mention only one call, if there were two, and both went unanswered?

The easy answer here is that HT only knew about the one call at the time. We didn't hear about the 2nd call for a full year, so it was either not very widely known about or misreported in some way. We actually don't even know the source of this info. Did it come from MB, who the PIs interviewed, did it come from JR from his sit down meeting with the parents, etc.

 

[akh]

So why do you guys think JR/HT included the phone call -- and specifically Lauren making it -- in the story to the media? And why mention only one call, if there were two, and both went unanswered?

Not sure if you got the point of what I was wondering... Between 4AM and whenever JR spoke to police (or anyone else that he told his story) did his story always reflect LS making a call (or calls) to locate her lost phone? And if it did, at what point did anyone tell him she'd actually lost her phone in the first place?

I don't remember ever dissecting this point before.

I wonder if that was part of his story before anyone ever told him her phone had been found at Kilroys? I'm sure it's possible he could've been told that, but I'd also think LE would have interviews with those people and know what they told him, when, and what he told them and when.

How did JR learn she was missing? Let's say HT is the first to call JR and asks "Have you seen Lauren?" and then he replies "Not since she was here last night. She called DR looking for her phone, he didn't answer, and then she took off walking home. She got home didn't she?"

Versus... HT "Have you seen LS? She didn't come home last night and she left her phone at Kilroy's so nobody has been able to call her"

And now that I think about it... Would DR have seen the missed call from JR and returned it when he got up? If so, what was said? Especially if LS wasn't known to be missing at that point...

It seems to me this whole point would/could be an important distinction. And I'd think it's something LE would chase down and want to know so it's just the general public that is in the dark. I don't remember it ever coming up though.

As for the 2nd call... I don't know why it would be a secret. But then again, maybe if HT hadn't spilled the beans the first call would've been a secret too. Was the 2nd call publicly known at all until the PI's were interviewed?

As for her key card and ID.... If she was carrying them (no pockets?) then it wouldn't be hard to imagine a scenario with her setting them down, dropping them, or even about to leave them behind and JR handing them to her as she was about to leave. So I'm not sure him noticing what they were makes me especially suspicious per se'. Although I would be curious about why she'd be concerned for her phone but not the missing items found in the alley. I'd expect her to at least mention them.

 

[akh]

I remember analyzing this quote before, and it seeming odd, but I think it finally clicked:

(BBM) "Said Tamir, "(Rosenbaum) was with Lauren that night, and he was the last person to see her as she walked out of his house...he made that very clear that Friday when we first realized she was missing and I believe him."

My own question was always on why was he "making it clear". Why would he need to clarify that he was the last to see her as she walked out of his house if there was no one else there? That's what he was doing here IMO, trying to make clear that no one at his house was involved.

Here's the problem I have trying to dissect HT's quote: It doesn't necessarily mean he was saying or even implying anything like "I need to make this very, very clear. I was alone. I was the last to see her. The last. Nobody else was there. I saw her walk out the door with my own eyes. I saw it...."

We don't know how the reporter framed the question either. What if the reporter asked "Are you clear on what you are telling me that JR said?"

So to me, without hearing from JR, it just means that HT herself believes she was clear on the what JR had said. Not that he'd went out of his way to emphasize any certain points.

It could be the way you're reading it but it just as easily could not be either...

 

[Ros]

There's another plea for more information on the Official LS Updates from Her Family page on Facebook. I hope that they don't reach the two year anniversary without the answers they seek.

 

[Kadence]

There's another plea for more information on the Official LS Updates from Her Family page on Facebook. I hope that they don't reach the two year anniversary without the answers they seek.

"We cannot imagine another June 3 without answers. Someone knows what happened to Lauren. Someone knows where she is. If you have any information please get in touch with us. Don't underestimate the power of knowledge.

With sincere appreciation,
The Spierer Family

Find Lauren PO Box 1226 Bloomington, IN 47402
Tipline - 812.339.4477
helpfindlauren@gmail.com
Beau Dietl & Associates
1.800.777.9366"

http://www.facebook.com/Lauren.Spierer.Family.Updates

I agree Ros, please, someone come forward.

If you're reading, I beg you. Let's end the pain and let Lauren come home. It's the right thing to do and it's time.