IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[AbbeyR]

I remember analyzing this quote before, and it seeming odd, but I think it finally clicked:

(BBM) "Said Tamir, "(Rosenbaum) was with Lauren that night, and he was the last person to see her as she walked out of his house...he made that very clear that Friday when we first realized she was missing and I believe him."

My own question was always on why was he "making it clear". Why would he need to clarify that he was the last to see her as she walked out of his house if there was no one else there? That's what he was doing here IMO, trying to make clear that no one at his house was involved.

That makes sense.

It could also be that after hearing this story, the reporter said something like:

Wait a sec, that sounds familiar. Oh, here it is, Mike Beth told people that exact same story! Look, it was in the paper last week - a witness directly quotes him saying he "watched her walk down the street toward home". Wtf Hadar?

HT: No, he told ME the story first... He made it VERY clear. and I BELIEVE him.

Interestingly, the first edit took the "And I believe him" out of the story. Then "He made that very clear..." was chopped in the next version and the other details were added. And voila, the story became fact.

 

[Ros]

https://www.facebook.com/Lauren.Spierer.Family.Updates?ref=ts&fref=ts

I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for the Spierers and other families in this situation.

 

[AbbeyR]

https://www.facebook.com/Lauren.Spierer.Family.Updates?ref=ts&fref=ts

I hope people make it to the end of the video to see the Spierers speak. Here's Charlene's message:

I'm addressing the people that know the answer to where Lauren is...
I mean, you can see from this map and the time line, it's a very small area , it's a very small amount of time.

This is our dear sweet daughter Lauren. I would just like to say to anybody that has any information: This could be you. This could be you, going out, on a night with your friends, to just have a good time and be happy and share your life with everybody. So I'm begging you. Put yourself in Lauren's place. What would you want your friends to do for you? And I can tell you 100% without question that if this was a friend of Lauren's, and if Lauren had information that would help us find her friend, she would have been here yesterday. So put yourself in her place. What would you want your friends to do? Please come forward and please bring us that information that's going to help us find Lauren and bring her home and complete our family once again.

Looking back at this video, even when LE was looking for the white truck, the Spierers were not talking as if this was a random abduction, at all. These messages were not directed to strangers or appealing to the general public for tips. They were directed at friends. They must have had good reason for this from the very beginning, IMO.

 

[AbbeyR]

As for the 2nd call... I don't know why it would be a secret. But then again, maybe if HT hadn't spilled the beans the first call would've been a secret too. Was the 2nd call publicly known at all until the PI's were interviewed?

I've been a little all over the place about HT in recent posts, but given that she uses the exact same words that we see in the POI statements, I don't think she "spilled the beans" about anything – she gave several interviews and obviously wanted to get certain information out there, and JR shared this information with her. It all seems pretty deliberate.

The second phone call wasn't publicly known until the PI's were interviewed, but obviously JR knew about both. So that's why I'm wondering: Why, in a conversation like the one you are imagining above, would JR only tell HT about one phone call and not the other? Or did HT know about the two phone calls and only tell the media about one? Did JR tell her the other info that came out to the public later, like that Lauren was getting black eyes when she got to his place? Did he tell her Mike Beth called him and then brought Lauren over, or did his story to HT match the story that MB's lawyer was saying in June 2011, that she went over on her own?...

And regardless of whether or not HT was in on the editing process, what was the purpose of telling her/ the media about a phone call that wasn't answered while deliberately concealing other information? Was it to construct JR's timeline of events (so the second call was irrelevant to the story he wanted to get out)? Or, did JR have to respond to (or anticipate having to respond to) questions about the phone call to DR because police had questioned him and people knew about it? (I'm thinking of how Salzman tried to pre-emptively spin the info being released about CR dragging Lauren down the alley by telling the media first that Lauren was helping him get home). I'm leaning toward the second, because it's not actually clear from the interview if this was part of the conversation HT says happened the day Lauren went missing, and wasn't in her first statement.

Ugh, this is what's sneaky about releasing info through a friend and not a lawyer -- he's not really tied to anything HT said, because in the end it's just her recollection of a conversation. On the other hand, she might know if JR's story changed, and if it did, she doesn't have to defend him.

 

[akh]

I hope people make it to the end of the video to see the Spierers speak. Here's Charlene's message:



Looking back at this video, even when LE was looking for the white truck, the Spierers were not talking as if this was a random abduction, at all. These messages were not directed to strangers or appealing to the general public for tips. They were directed at friends. They must have had good reason for this from the very beginning, IMO.

I've thought about this and at this point I doubt their reasoning is much different than anyone else's- It's just the most simple answer versus the statistical likelihood of a random abduction and the complications that would mean.

I doubt they know anything that we'd see as a game-changer and suddenly say "Well, then of course!". Instead, they most likely know the same basic story the public knows, albeit with much more clarity (they've likely filtered out bad reporting for example and LE and the PI's have likely clarified statements they've made if there were questions). They've obviously spoken with JR but I suspect whatever they learned from him they consider untruthful or that he's withholding info.

IOW, I don't consider the parents a good barometer for deciding which way the guilty winds blow. IMO they are simply following Occam's razor. Which logically isn't a bad path to follow.

After hearing the PI's explain/summarize the case they seemed more wide open to other possibilities than the parents... so that is when I started looking at things differently.

 

[mfunky]

After hearing the PI's explain/summarize the case they seemed more wide open to other possibilities than the parents... so that is when I started looking at things differently.

I watched that video with an open mind, and have thought about this case from every which angle, and can't shake the belief that the POI's are involved. There are too many lies from them, inconstiencies, and things that just don't add up or make any sense at all.

I didn't interpret the PI's as necessarily being wide open to other possibilities--- instead it seemed to me like they were attempting to present a neutral front, as they are stuck. Additionally, they're investigators- they can't really close the book on any possibility.

Much like every other piece of information regarding this case, everyone will interpret things differently. I can't believe its almost been two years- it still drives me absolutely crazy thinking about what happened, I can't even imagine what her family and friends are still going through. The fact that people (POIs) are able to carry on with everyday life while keeping what happened on 6/3/11 a secret is so disturbing.

 

[imamaze]

http://longisland.news12.com/news/lauren-spierer-s-friends-hold-on-to-hope-1.4997710?firstfree=yes
Lauren Spierer's friends hold on to hope
It's been nearly two years since Edgemont college student Lauren Spierer disappeared but friends and family haven't given up the search for answers.
Video included...

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...t-what-happened-to-indiana-university-student
Family of Lauren Spierer keep up fight to find out what happened to Indiana University student
Two months shy of marking two years since Indiana University student Lauren Spierer was last seen, her parents are steadfast in their efforts to find out what happened to their daughter.
On an active Facebook page , nearly 82,000 people keep track of the latest developments in the search for Spierer, who was last seen near campus on June 3, 2011.

 

[mfunky]

After hearing the PI's explain/summarize the case they seemed more wide open to other possibilities than the parents... so that is when I started looking at things differently.

Part 2:

Right after I hit submit for my last post, I remembered that there was one thing I began looking at differently after watching the video of the PI's summarizing the case. And that is JW. Before that video I never believed he was involved, and I still don't. But when the PI said something like "JW- he was supposed to be her boyfriend....you'd think since he cared about this girl he would be forthcoming." I really thought that was interesting. I think a lot of people found it interesting that LS was out that night with guys who weren't JW- why would she be with them when she could be with her boyfriend? I did too. Perhaps they had a fight or were hitting a rocky patch or something..... and if they were I would imagine his lawyer would advise him to be quiet. Think of how many women go missing each year, only to be learned they were killed by their significant others. Again, in my opinion, I don't see him being involved, but I can see where a LOT of speculation and motive could have been born by the media if he wasn't so silent.

 

[mikkismom]

Parents of missing Lauren Spierer release emotional letter as IU graduation nears

Read more: http://fox59.com/2013/04/03/parents...-letter-as-iu-graduation-nears/#ixzz2PQDOLcw2

 

[mfunky]

Parents of missing Lauren Spierer release emotional letter as IU graduation nears

Read more: http://fox59.com/2013/04/03/parents...-letter-as-iu-graduation-nears/#ixzz2PQDOLcw2

So absolutely devestating. My heart truly goes out to them. The combination of loss, sadness and frustration they face on a daily basis seems so inhumane.

“If you are a loving parent, you can appreciate the depths of our commitment,” wrote the Spierers. “You can image what it might be like to receive the most horrible phone call of your life.”

With that quote in mind, I wonder if the parents of any of the POI's keep a close eye on the case, have LS's name on google alert, etc..... you know that phrase "a mother always knows"? I think of that a lot when I read letters from the Spierer's and just wonder what some of the parents of POI's know and are keeping secret. Compassion very well could solve the mystery of where LS is/what happened to her, and I really hope that someday somebodys compassion will be stronger than the barriers that are currently holding them back (wealth, family name & reputation, being scared, etc).

 

[AbbeyR]

That letter is heartbreaking

Wanted to add 2 things to our conversation about JR's comments about Lauren's ID, and the phone calls:

* This article (from Sep. 2011) suggests that her fake ID was found: http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/09/15/news.qp-0329186.sto (Btown posted about this in thread #24)

* There were other rumors about the phone calls: "Ray" on PT said he heard (from either JR's roommates or MB) that JR made the call to DR, for a ride for Lauren. (PT, Girl Missing in Indiana pt. 4, p. 12)

 

[imkeylime]

Part 2:

Right after I hit submit for my last post, I remembered that there was one thing I began looking at differently after watching the video of the PI's summarizing the case. And that is JW. Before that video I never believed he was involved, and I still don't. But when the PI said something like "JW- he was supposed to be her boyfriend....you'd think since he cared about this girl he would be forthcoming." I really thought that was interesting. I think a lot of people found it interesting that LS was out that night with guys who weren't JW- why would she be with them when she could be with her boyfriend? I did too. Perhaps they had a fight or were hitting a rocky patch or something..... and if they were I would imagine his lawyer would advise him to be quiet. Think of how many women go missing each year, only to be learned they were killed by their significant others. Again, in my opinion, I don't see him being involved, but I can see where a LOT of speculation and motive could have been born by the media if he wasn't so silent.

I guess I've always looked at LS hanging out with CR a little differently. IMO, she may have simply wanted to party and he wanted to stay closer to home. And I don't mean that as a slight at LS at all. Based on what I hear from my college-aged son, that kind of thing happens.

Also, a number of females and males are friends nowadays anyway. But ... I can believe that CR wanted more. And I can see how that puts JW in an awkward place. Or, like you mentioned, maybe things weren't perfect between them. I'm not sure that we'll ever know ...

 

[Kadence]

So absolutely devestating. My heart truly goes out to them. The combination of loss, sadness and frustration they face on a daily basis seems so inhumane.

“If you are a loving parent, you can appreciate the depths of our commitment,” wrote the Spierers. “You can image what it might be like to receive the most horrible phone call of your life.”

With that quote in mind, I wonder if the parents of any of the POI's keep a close eye on the case, have LS's name on google alert, etc..... you know that phrase "a mother always knows"? I think of that a lot when I read letters from the Spierer's and just wonder what some of the parents of POI's know and are keeping secret. Compassion very well could solve the mystery of where LS is/what happened to her, and I really hope that someday somebodys compassion will be stronger than the barriers that are currently holding them back (wealth, family name & reputation, being scared, etc).

So well said! Thank you!

I do firmly believe that "a mother always knows" and was recently tragically reminded of this when my friend lost her daughter in an auto accident close to their home, she just "knew" when she heard the ambulance. She says she didn't know how she knew, she just felt it. In the South, they say a mother's intuition is something "to be reckoned with" and after living here for a while, I have to say I agree. That "feeling" is usually right.

While I never hope to be in such a position as a mother as, IMO, until we are there, we don't really know what we would do/how we would react. I would hope, as heartbreaking as it would be as a parent/child relationship, that I would make the right decision. It isn't easy, I'm sure, but it has been done by many mothers and I'm sure their hearts have been perhaps irretrievably broken, but knowing they did the right thing can only bring comfort in the end, especially to those who were hurt. It has to be done or, IMO, it would eat you alive. I couldn't turn a blind eye.

Let's hope the mother of a POI, someone known, or someone unknown, feels in their heart the ability to make the call, the call to action, the call to end this for all loved ones involved, theirs and others, as well as themselves. It's time.

 

[Jacobite]

That letter is heartbreaking

Wanted to add 2 things to our conversation about JR's comments about Lauren's ID, and the phone calls:

* This article (from Sep. 2011) suggests that her fake ID was found: http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/09/15/news.qp-0329186.sto (Btown posted about this in thread #24)

* There were other rumors about the phone calls: "Ray" on PT said he heard (from either JR's roommates or MB) that JR made the call to DR, for a ride for Lauren. (PT, Girl Missing in Indiana pt. 4, p. 12)

Where her ID was found is the most important clue of all. Was it 12th and Walnut? Was it found at Sports? Or, did Jay turn it in?

 

[bx2]

While it still isn't clear to me if they have the ID in possession or not (unsure on if they can use statements from other people describing the physical appearance of the person appearing on the ID), this timing does seem a bit coincidental:

September 15, 2011 Kilroy’s Sports Bar cited in connection with Lauren Spierer case by Indiana State Excise

Rosenbaum, who is being represented by Indianapolis attorneys James Voyles and Jennifer Lukemeyer, met for two hours with the Spierers in Lukemeyer’s office on Sept. 19. The Spierers’ attorneys were also present at this meeting. Rosenbaum has also met with the private investigators the Spierers have hired in this case from New York City’s Beau Dietl & Associates

 

[AbbeyR]

Bx2, you're right, it's not totally clear. It sounds like they are describing the actual ID (and it seems weird that they could cite the bar without it, but I have no idea how that works... Ixchel might know this one?) The articles about this also mention getting info from (uncooperative) witnesses:

Police said Kilroy’s Sports Bar owners and employees cooperated with officers and provided surveillance tapes and other information requested by investigators. The investigation took them much longer to complete, however, because some other witnesses were not as cooperative.

"Getting that information was difficult," said Thickstun.

http://la-www.fox59.com/news/wxin-e...lauren-spierer-case-20110915,3,2661444.column

What information, Thickstun?

Interesting observation about the timing. Hmmm.

 

[AbbeyR]

From the HT article above:

Voyles and Lukemeyer state Rosenbaum

continues to cooperate upon “learning or remembering additional information.”

Learning or remembering... hm.

Sometimes something comes up that reminds me that we don't know anything about the investigation other than a few little snippets given to the media. It's so hard to connect the dots... I hope the PI's and LE have been able to with the information they have.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

Bx2, you're right, it's not totally clear. It sounds like they are describing the actual ID (and it seems weird that they could cite the bar without it, but I have no idea how that works... Ixchel might know this one?) The articles about this also mention getting info from (uncooperative) witnesses:



http://la-www.fox59.com/news/wxin-e...lauren-spierer-case-20110915,3,2661444.column

What information, Thickstun?

Interesting observation about the timing. Hmmm.

Maybe I am misunderstanding (it's Friday afternoon, after all!) but it seems like it is worded a bit differently according to the HT article

When asked why it took more than three months to issue the two citations, Thickstun said excise investigators wanted to do a thorough investigation. Aside from speaking with bar owners and employees, excise investigators “... wanted to speak with other people, who would have some knowledge of what happened inside the establishment,” he said. They could not be easily reached in the investigation.

not sure exactly what he means or if it is related to your point, above.

 

[Ixchel13]

Bx2, you're right, it's not totally clear. It sounds like they are describing the actual ID (and it seems weird that they could cite the bar without it, but I have no idea how that works... Ixchel might know this one?) The articles about this also mention getting info from (uncooperative) witnesses:



http://la-www.fox59.com/news/wxin-e...lauren-spierer-case-20110915,3,2661444.column

What information, Thickstun?

Interesting observation about the timing. Hmmm.

Yes Abbey, it is weird, as I've said before, there were witnesses, both employees and patrons, to what went on in reference to LS at Kilroys that evening; rumours were flying, that weird guy was ranting and raving and taping people out in front--suddenly Kilroys closes, scattering these people, both employees and customers, all that summer.
About what you asked about the ID. not sure, but she did get in, so someone was at least supposed to be checking for ID.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Good points about the ID and key card, Akh. I just find it a strange detail, I guess, that he would notice exactly what ID she was carrying with her.

I think the info about the phone came from HT. On June 12, she gave this account, via Lohud:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110616122255/http://www.lohud.com/article/20110613/NEWS02/106130325

In this article, she also tells the story of the lost phone and Kilroy's contacting Jesse.

Then the article was updated 2 days later to include this:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...w-details-her-night-parents-TV?nclick_check=1

So why do you guys think JR/HT included the phone call -- and specifically Lauren making it -- in the story to the media? And why mention only one call, if there were two, and both went unanswered?

I really appreciate the serious mastication that is going on with every word of every known statement and fact. Every so often I have to take a break from this case and come back with fresh eyes. It just won't leave me alone, however.

This detail about the ID as noted by JR, is similar to his overall very detailed observations that night. Its one of those things that has always raised red flags for me about JR's story. So many people readily want to chalk these people up as being so intoxicated that they were not functional. But clearly in JR's case, the excruciating details, his "walk test", the phone calls are all very richly contrasted against the simple effort of walking LS home 2 blocks away. walking her home could have easily been accomplished perhaps 5 times within the supposed time interval of his astute observations and requests.

Today the phrase "rounding the corner" got me thinking again... why this detail? Why not just saw her walking down 11th? For one thing... if he didn't watch her all the way to the corner it would seem like he wasn't all that caring. But no, he had to watch her all they way to the corner...hmm. Again if he was that concerned, why not just walk her the 2 blocks home! So, why else have her "round the corner"? That is the point where he lets himself off the hook. He throws the possibilities of what happened to her out into the abyss. The implication is stranger abduction. And so no matter how unreasonable and unlikely that is, the challenge is to prove out this lie. (and points well taken that this lie may have also been extended in the form of crafted PR being expressed through unwitting or knowing mouthpieces)

Every one of JR's detailed observations seems so well thought out. It has the earmarks of craftsmanship.

About the second call. If the second call was to HT, even if she knew about that, she certainly would have reason to NOT bring that to light.
It is reasonable that if JR told HT about the call to DR, he would also have mentioned the call to HT as well. But if the second call was not to HT, then it is very curious why JR would not tell HT and/or if he did, why HT would not reveal it. This second call is definitely a loose thread.

Also I think in another recent post by bx about JR going out of his way to make it clear that he alone saw all of this. He's not only protecting CR/MB but his guests as well. Extremely curious.

About The Spierer's... I do think that intuition from CS is very important.
She does have a sense of what went down. And that sense seems to be rather consistent with the mass of analysis going here. Looking at this situation from so many different angles, scenarios, crunching all known data, it keeps coming down to the curious 3:30 phone call from MB to JR and what really happened during the next hour.

My intuition points to an accidental death, botched response from those present, and ensuing cover up. But it's also plausible that ill intent was also a factor and is compelling as a reason for the cover up. Even as unlikely as it would seem to have several people maintain a conspiracy, my gut tells me that it's more likely that at least 2 and perhaps as many as 5 people know what happened or were involved in the crucial 3:30 to 4:30 time frame. JR took responsibility as being the last to see her for various reasons. But it's just too convenient and too well crafted.
MB had to know that LS was in very bad shape if even alive, in stark contrast to all statements attributed to him. This is a big red flag the size of China. MB had this hot potato fall in his lap and he was happy to toss it to storyteller JR. JR turned it into french fries. With is magic wand, JR, gets CR/MB, his guests, and himself all off the hook.