My first thought when I heard LS was missing was that she fell, was hit by a vehicle, was scooped up and taken. Would such an incident be caught on camera? could such an incident be not caught on camera on her return route from 5N? Has LE all vehicle plate info that crossed possible streets that night?, that is, the ones caught on camera?
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29
- Thread starter bessie
- Start date
- Status
No, it didn't appear that way at all! These articles are all at least a year old, and you're right, many of them have disappeared from the net or been misquoted as the facts are recycled into other articles. It's always good to bring up little details that we may have forgotten about. There are always new questions to ask!
It's too bad we don't have an archive of old articles. There are a few I wish I had taken a screen shot of, that I can no longer find.
Most people probably know this, but just for reference: we do have this thread, which has links to media articles on Lauren's case: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139766"]IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 * Media Links* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
If the article is no longer online, you can sometimes find it by copying the link and pasting it into the wayback machine: http://archive.org/web/web.php
looking-4-lauren
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 5
- Reaction score
- 0
Ray Anastasio was the username of someone posting on another forum who claimed he was longtime friends with some of the POI (but never had been to Bloomington). Here is a link to the forum http://phantasytour.com/bands/1/topics/2739191/posts
Ray is positive that his buds had nothing to do with it and suggest that not enough focus was on JW.
Considering this, I suppose after LS left N5, JW was hanging around waiting for her to leave. His buddies that beat down CR and word probably got back to him. I suppose it is possible he was upset/jealous/whatever and confronted her and something went down. Just a theory that I have not read before.
I think this theory is plausible for a few reasons. Mostly, it would be difficult for the other POI to keep a straight story and would explain why they never flipped on each other. But who knows! I read the family ruled out JW as a POI, I am sure they know better than most of us.
Ixchel13
Former Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2012
- Messages
- 1,658
- Reaction score
- 1,146
well, maybe the last phone call wast to a friend of JW's, and a message really was left, and this person called JW and told him where Lauren was and was planning to walk home. In Mickey Shunick's case, LE didn't exactly lie but
did erase Mickey from a video photo they released. If the mysterious phone call receiver admitted to the police that he called JW, maybe the police are
waiting for him slip up, or since they don't know where Lauren's body is, they
can't actually charge him. JR could actually be cooperating fully with police. As forementioned a few posts back, if Lauren was there, her fingerprints were probably on the Ipod and phone, and that's why JR was not arrested.
Ixchel13
Former Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2012
- Messages
- 1,658
- Reaction score
- 1,146
well, maybe the last phone call was to a friend of JW's, and a message really was left, and this person called JW and told him where Lauren was and was planning to walk home. In Mickey Shunick's case, LE didn't exactly lie but
did erase Mickey from a video photo they released. If the mysterious phone call receiver admitted to the police that he called JW, maybe the police are
waiting for him slip up, or since they don't know where Lauren's body is, they
can't actually charge him. JR could actually be cooperating fully with police. As forementioned a few posts back, if Lauren was there, her fingerprints were probably on the Ipod and phone, and that's why JR was not arrested.
Maybe the mysterious last person called had a burner phone and so did JW.
JW would probably know right away to get rid of his phone, now he can deny getting the call. We have no real idea what kind of questions they asked these POIs. But curious that they mentioned the IPod incident, we think it is about her being messed up, but maybe it was inserted into the dialogue on purpose, the no message thing on purpose, because they know a message was left. I don't believe no message was left. As they are saying, there's lots we don't know behind the scenes, and they could have it that the mysterious guy called someone after receiving the late night call from Lauren/JR. Obviously, this mysterious receiver of the last call was cleared or his name would be up there with the other POIs who were the last to see/or hear, from Lauren.
Or, mysterious guy is a secret prime suspect, and they are leading him to believe that they believe JR when he says no message was left, when in fact JR told them he/Lauren did leave a message, and that is she wanted her phone and wanted to go home. and that was probably, IMO, because she was afraid of what JW would do/say if he found out she didn't go home.
I think this assumes a lot. From my understanding JW was not very connecting with the N5 crew. Also these kids running around with back up burner cell phones "just in case" seems like a push. Yeah sure, these kids were into drug/whatever, but mostly within their social circle. Not really the type of thing you need to have burner handy for.
Ixchel13
Former Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2012
- Messages
- 1,658
- Reaction score
- 1,146
sorry about double post. And something else just occurred to me:
What if LE and the Spierers know there is another, more likely suspect but they also want to get the POIs in a civil suit for facilitating Lauren's demise?
If this happened to my child, I would want everyone responsible punished, and I'm sure the parents of the POIs would feel the same way if it were their kid missing.
It's endemic now, we see hazings turning into a death, and then society wants to let these kids off the hook. We see kids getting bullied into suicide, and society lets the bully kids off--when will society firmly take a stand and say if you contribute to someone's death, you will automatically do time!?
What if LE and the Spierers know there is another, more likely suspect but they also want to get the POIs in a civil suit for facilitating Lauren's demise?
If this happened to my child, I would want everyone responsible punished, and I'm sure the parents of the POIs would feel the same way if it were their kid missing.
It's endemic now, we see hazings turning into a death, and then society wants to let these kids off the hook. We see kids getting bullied into suicide, and society lets the bully kids off--when will society firmly take a stand and say if you contribute to someone's death, you will automatically do time!?
Ixchel13
Former Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2012
- Messages
- 1,658
- Reaction score
- 1,146
you're right, this offshoot theory does assume alot. But not about the burner phones. See, these youngsters are alot more tech savvy, it comes natural to them, and they know all about pinging, and that the first thing that happens when someone gets busted is everyone on their phone is exposed, and what they are saying is exposed. This day and age, your phone is your little black book so to speak. They do have burner phones because I've seen them with them! Not the POIs, just certain students. It's kind of an underground status symbol.
It's possible a message was left but that information is being kept quiet.
From my personal perspective:
I am in the same age-group as these POI's, having graduated college just 2 years ago. Myself and my friends/acquaintances would never leave a voicemail on each other's cell phones. In this day and age, a "missed call" notification basically acts as a voicemail, it isn't necessary to say "This is Lauren, it's 4AM on Thursday, call me back my phone number is *advertiser censored*-*advertiser censored*-xxxx." The notification of a missed call provides all of that information.
This does not necessarily mean that a voicemail was not left. The people involved in this case may have different habits... I did not attend college at IU and am not associated with this group so I am not attempting to attest to their exact habits.
Also, about burner phones. Again, it is definitely a possibility. But to me, seems unlikely. Ixchel13 you have seen college kids carrying them so that is definitely worth noting. I feel as though if any of the young men involved in the case had a burner phone LE would have found out. I know many students were tight-lipped about the case.. but college students are all aware how important cell phone data is nowadays to solving disappearances. I have to believe that over the last two years someone would have been questioned and said (or submitted an anonymous tip) that they had knowledge of the POI's using burners. Many people would be aware if the POI's possessed burners and were using them for "business". Friends, acquaintances, girlfriends, ex-girlfriends, roommates and ex-roommates, etc. That would be tough to keep quiet from LE during the investigation (IMO).
In my personal experience (again, I realize the actions of this particular group could be different)... I never knew a single student who possessed a burner phone or spoke of another student having a burner phone, and yes I was acquainted with students who involved themselves with drugs (I did not).
Just my two cents! =)
From my personal perspective:
I am in the same age-group as these POI's, having graduated college just 2 years ago. Myself and my friends/acquaintances would never leave a voicemail on each other's cell phones. In this day and age, a "missed call" notification basically acts as a voicemail, it isn't necessary to say "This is Lauren, it's 4AM on Thursday, call me back my phone number is *advertiser censored*-*advertiser censored*-xxxx." The notification of a missed call provides all of that information.
This does not necessarily mean that a voicemail was not left. The people involved in this case may have different habits... I did not attend college at IU and am not associated with this group so I am not attempting to attest to their exact habits.
Also, about burner phones. Again, it is definitely a possibility. But to me, seems unlikely. Ixchel13 you have seen college kids carrying them so that is definitely worth noting. I feel as though if any of the young men involved in the case had a burner phone LE would have found out. I know many students were tight-lipped about the case.. but college students are all aware how important cell phone data is nowadays to solving disappearances. I have to believe that over the last two years someone would have been questioned and said (or submitted an anonymous tip) that they had knowledge of the POI's using burners. Many people would be aware if the POI's possessed burners and were using them for "business". Friends, acquaintances, girlfriends, ex-girlfriends, roommates and ex-roommates, etc. That would be tough to keep quiet from LE during the investigation (IMO).
In my personal experience (again, I realize the actions of this particular group could be different)... I never knew a single student who possessed a burner phone or spoke of another student having a burner phone, and yes I was acquainted with students who involved themselves with drugs (I did not).
Just my two cents! =)
Ditto. Even the drug dealers (the kind that sell small quantities to college students) didn't use burner phones, in my experience.
The PI's specifically said the call was from JR's phone to someone Lauren watched the game with earlier and no messages were left. I can't figure out why this came out a year after Lauren went missing, but I don't see any reason why they would make this info public if it wasn't true. If they wanted for some reason to keep that 2nd phone call a secret, they could have just not mentioned it. Same goes for the message.
Edited to add: Did we hear about the first call from LE or just from HT? I can't remember...
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,898
I posted most of this theory before, but not specifically with DB in the driver's seat. (Even noting likely dumping areas in the vicinity of the Hospital) Though I'm heavily inclined to suspect he may have been fully involved and agree that this scenario is very plausible.
The problem I have with CR is the bogus amnesia claim. Why does he need that if LS died at JR's or Enroute to Hospital with DR driving?
Then we have MB's attributed and highly inconsistent statements about LS.
Why was MB masking Lauren's condition and spinning it like she was in good shape, when JR does disclose her bad condition at least to some degree?
So Both CR and MB's claims hide the established fact that LS was in very bad shape. There is no proof that she ever regained consciousness after that last face down fall in the gravel lot. Only MB and JR say they saw her after that. And the accounts between the 2 of them are vastly different.
Not in the way of error, or minor perception, but like Night and Day different. MB and CR clearly appearing to be deflecting attention from themselves and pointing the finger over at JR. JR in turn points down at the corner. Given these circumstances how can DB not be a POI?
It is CR's Amnesia and MB's drastically inaccurate account of LS's condition
that support the idea that something bad had already happened to her.
Else, why cover it up? And if something bad has already happened to her that leaves either their apartment or out behind 5N. Sure... if it happened at JR's and they weren't there and knew nothing about it... then why the lies?
What type of vehicle did DB have that night? Sure JR's vehicle was in the shop, did he have an alternate or loaner vehicle, or access to other friends or acquaintances vehicles? But sure LE should have checked the videos with views of the streets for DB's car during those hours. If DR's vehicle were driving around at 4:00am, how could he explain that? Similarly as you suggest checking his cell phone records, etc... all things LE should have done a long long time ago. If they are only thinking about DR at this stage, it would be really bad police work.
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,898
So, this would support the idea that the calls from JR's apt at 4:15 to DR and (unknown) were staged. It also would indicate the time that the disposal had been completed and he was back at his Apt. Roughly a 45 minute span from MB's call to JR at 3:30. The hospital being some 5 to 10 minutes away would really narrow the range of possible dumping areas so they would be back at the apt by 4:15. Pretty much within 15 minutes of 5N, that's a much closer ring. Of course if DB just took off to do it alone and then shows up at runcible spoon several hours later... we are back to an overwhelming range of possible dumping areas.
Another thing is that there may have been other out of town guests who traveled with DB or separately also could have participated in the same way, even if DB hadn't.
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,898
Lauren's last known condition is not a Rumor. Her last known condition that is provable is from the Last known VIDEO to have captured her. According to PI's who saw this video, she fell face down into the gravel lot, without blocking with her hands. That indicates she was unconscious.
I don't consider public statements from Private investigators hired to find out what happened to Lauren to be a "Rumor". Additionally there are other eyewitness accounts of her falling and hitting her head on the concrete over at your building on 10th and College. And there is Video footage of her unable to talk and slipping down unable to stand at Smallwood. You really consider all of that to be a rumor? You want to throw all of that out but without any substance whatsoever and yet want people to consider House Bar?
This is not rational. But even to consider House Bar you would have to be believing that JR is telling the truth about LS walking down 11th, barefoot, phoneless, penniless, seriously bruised in the face, with only a fake ID and Keycard in her possession. So, how were you implying she would procure cocaine at House Bar with no money and in this condition? You put this theory out there!
There was some discussion this week about how attorneys often assist their client in "spinning" the truth so that the client appears more favorably to the public/LE.
Does anyone think that CR's memory loss could be real, but rather it is due to a much more obvious reason-- excessive drinking and drug use? The idea that CR had amnesia due to being punched does not ring true to me. But functioning while "blacked out" on alcohol and or drugs is something that my friends and I experienced quite often during college. I have wondered if CR truly does have a spotty or missing memory from that time, but with his attorney's assistance (or maybe without it) it was decided to blame the memory loss on being hit.. perhaps thinking that would portray CR a bit more favorably? I would assume that LE tested the vomit in CR & MB's apartment that supposedly came from CR to ensure that it was truly from CR. Vomiting on the floor is obviously consistent with being very intoxicated (although to be fair, it is also a symptom of a head injury. I just don't see how his injury could have been THAT severe when I am not aware that he ever lost consciousness. I have also had other, darker thoughts about more a sinister reason CR would vomit on the floor, regarding LS).
I'm not indicating that I find CR believable. I just wonder if he truly is missing some of his memories due to being intoxicated. Perhaps not.
------------------------------
It just struck me that although I am sure LE has viewed CR's text exchanges from the night Lauren disappeared, I myself am SO curious about them! Surely they don't contain any directly incriminating information regarding the disappearance, but I would love to know if CR was texting back and forth with any acquaintances regarding Lauren's level of intoxication, whether he was making comments of a sexual nature about her, etc. YKWIM? We all know that she did not have her phone, but I've not seen any indication that CR was without his phone. Who he was texting that night and whether LS was mentioned at all are two things I would love to know!
Does anyone think that CR's memory loss could be real, but rather it is due to a much more obvious reason-- excessive drinking and drug use? The idea that CR had amnesia due to being punched does not ring true to me. But functioning while "blacked out" on alcohol and or drugs is something that my friends and I experienced quite often during college. I have wondered if CR truly does have a spotty or missing memory from that time, but with his attorney's assistance (or maybe without it) it was decided to blame the memory loss on being hit.. perhaps thinking that would portray CR a bit more favorably? I would assume that LE tested the vomit in CR & MB's apartment that supposedly came from CR to ensure that it was truly from CR. Vomiting on the floor is obviously consistent with being very intoxicated (although to be fair, it is also a symptom of a head injury. I just don't see how his injury could have been THAT severe when I am not aware that he ever lost consciousness. I have also had other, darker thoughts about more a sinister reason CR would vomit on the floor, regarding LS).
I'm not indicating that I find CR believable. I just wonder if he truly is missing some of his memories due to being intoxicated. Perhaps not.
------------------------------
It just struck me that although I am sure LE has viewed CR's text exchanges from the night Lauren disappeared, I myself am SO curious about them! Surely they don't contain any directly incriminating information regarding the disappearance, but I would love to know if CR was texting back and forth with any acquaintances regarding Lauren's level of intoxication, whether he was making comments of a sexual nature about her, etc. YKWIM? We all know that she did not have her phone, but I've not seen any indication that CR was without his phone. Who he was texting that night and whether LS was mentioned at all are two things I would love to know!
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,898
Yes, this makes a great deal of sense... that Lauren never made it to JR's from CR/MB's. It's also debatable whether she even made it up to CR/MB's.
To support this idea... I remember some very early accounts that were discussed when MB's statements were first in the news. There were references to MB calling JR and JR coming over to CR/MB's and that "others" were present. The statements that she wanted to party, and went to JR's emerged later and those accounts were different.... it wasn't clear if JR came and got her or if MB brought her or she went on her own. The confusion around that and multiple conflicting stories is one of the things that caused me to focus on this 3:30ish time.
Why would MB call JR at 3:30 am? If LS were conscious and wanted to go there, MB would not need to call. If LS wanted to call first, then why not borrow CR or MB's phone and call herself? If she were not capable of making a call (which seems to be the case), then what would have been discussed? Minutes earlier her condition is dire... minutes afterwards supposedly over at JR's she can't tell an ipod from a phone. But no matter which version of MB's statements you go by she seems in good shape... it doesn't fit!
People also seem to be forgetting that MB made it very clear that CR was in bad shape and needed to be put to bed. But the videos and other witness accounts indicate that it was LS that was in far worse shape than CR.
If CR needed to go to bed then what did LS need?
So, I agree it's very plausible that it all went down at CR/MB's.
Except maybe her actual death, even if she were there deceased a few minutes dogs should be able to pick that up. But then it's not clear if the right dogs were ever brought in for that.
VeryVeritas
Former Member
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2010
- Messages
- 1,250
- Reaction score
- 2,898
The liver of a normal adult (not also on drugs) can process 1 oz of alcohol out of the system per hour. That would be 1 shot of most hard liquor.
Based in the phone calls from MB and phone calls from JR's the amount of time LS would have spent at JR's (assuming she was there) would have been more like 45 minutes. JR's details of her condition are great. But they don't quite add up. She was so messed up that she lost nearly all of her belongings and shoes. That's not just "drunk" as you put it. She was falling down and was unconscious... that's not just "drunk". She could not tell the difference from an ipod to a cell phone. That's not just "drunk".
It took time for JR to make his observations (unless all were fabricated) about her condition. It's not possible for the human liver to have cleared enough alcohol out of her system in 30 to 45 minutes for her to be in any noticeably different state. If she also had drugs in her system (which seems to be highly probably) then it's even more ridiculous to think she would be ok to walk within this narrow time interval.
Yet, at the same time, for the amount of effort JR put into noting her condition and testing her... he could have walked her home (maybe even carried her there) and walked back probably 2 times, maybe 3.
It was not enough time for her messed up state to clear, but it was certainly enough time for him to take her home. So, he certainly is responsible one way or the other and should be held to account.
Sorry if I am going off on a tangent here, but I can't stop thinking about text messages.
The public has been made aware of the two phone calls made from JR's phone. But do we really know that he sent no texts? I doubt he would have been dumb enough to send something such as that she was dead or dying in a text message, but I am thinking about a little earlier on. Were there any texts sent about how "Lauren is so messed up!", or to Lauren's phone earlier in the night (he may not have known she left her phone at Kilroy's) saying "where are you, I've got coke here". These are just random examples I am making up on the spot, but you see they could be almost anything. For those who speculate that JW was hearing second-hand of Lauren's actions that night... I feel that it would be more likely that his acquaintances would have texted him such information rather than calling him. So there would or could be text messaging records indicating his feelings about LS that night either from his phone to hers (when she lost her phone and stopped responding) or corresponding with others (an example would be if anyone texted Jesse about the confrontation between CR and ZO&co that Lauren was present for).
I have always wondered what little bits of information that LE has in this case that we do not. The PI's in the lohud video seemed to be pretty open about video footage of the night and several witness accounts. I now believe that the text messages to/from all of the young men involved in this case would be a great source of information for LE. If LS perished unexpectedly/accidentally, as I suspect, there would have been no reason for the POI's to censor their texts up until the moment they realized that they were knee-deep in hot water and operation cover-up commenced. So, there may be several text messages amongst key people indicating Lauren's condition, CR's condition post-punch, CR's feelings toward LS, whether JW was becoming angry with LS or had been hearing rumors via the grapevine, etc.
LE may have some information from such text messages that would support or complement the discovery of any solid evidence. I imagine this information may have given LE some good insight.
The public has been made aware of the two phone calls made from JR's phone. But do we really know that he sent no texts? I doubt he would have been dumb enough to send something such as that she was dead or dying in a text message, but I am thinking about a little earlier on. Were there any texts sent about how "Lauren is so messed up!", or to Lauren's phone earlier in the night (he may not have known she left her phone at Kilroy's) saying "where are you, I've got coke here". These are just random examples I am making up on the spot, but you see they could be almost anything. For those who speculate that JW was hearing second-hand of Lauren's actions that night... I feel that it would be more likely that his acquaintances would have texted him such information rather than calling him. So there would or could be text messaging records indicating his feelings about LS that night either from his phone to hers (when she lost her phone and stopped responding) or corresponding with others (an example would be if anyone texted Jesse about the confrontation between CR and ZO&co that Lauren was present for).
I have always wondered what little bits of information that LE has in this case that we do not. The PI's in the lohud video seemed to be pretty open about video footage of the night and several witness accounts. I now believe that the text messages to/from all of the young men involved in this case would be a great source of information for LE. If LS perished unexpectedly/accidentally, as I suspect, there would have been no reason for the POI's to censor their texts up until the moment they realized that they were knee-deep in hot water and operation cover-up commenced. So, there may be several text messages amongst key people indicating Lauren's condition, CR's condition post-punch, CR's feelings toward LS, whether JW was becoming angry with LS or had been hearing rumors via the grapevine, etc.
LE may have some information from such text messages that would support or complement the discovery of any solid evidence. I imagine this information may have given LE some good insight.
I agree with you, Ix, about taking a stand. I think that if people contribute to a person's death, whether directly, by contributing to circumstances where that person is obviously in danger, or by not calling for help, they should be held responsible.
About the first part of your post, I'm not sure these things are mutually exclusive -- Are they? Even if there was another suspect, couldn't they still potentially file a civil suit against the POI? Especially if there is evidence that they gave her drugs and/or alcohol?...
I mentioned this already, but the thing I find hardest to wrap my mind around is: If there was another POI or suspect, why would it be a secret?
http://www.lohud.com/article/201305...s-missing-Edgemont-woman-s-parents-harassment
"Lauren Spierer: Corey Rossman accuses missing Edgemont woman's parents of harassment"
“It’s inappropriate the way they’re harassing people that are also victims in this case,” Corey Rossman told The Journal News Thursday, talking publicly for the first time since Spierer disappeared nearly two years ago. “We’ve done nothing wrong. If we’d done something wrong, we would have been arrested already. All they’re doing is hurting my career.”
"Rossman also seemed to distance himself from his own lawyer Carl Salzmann’s statement that he had no memory of his final moments with Spierer."
“I never said that,” he told the paper. “You’re taking statements that were said by my lawyer. I never said I did or didn’t.”
Read the rest at the link above.
"Lauren Spierer: Corey Rossman accuses missing Edgemont woman's parents of harassment"
“It’s inappropriate the way they’re harassing people that are also victims in this case,” Corey Rossman told The Journal News Thursday, talking publicly for the first time since Spierer disappeared nearly two years ago. “We’ve done nothing wrong. If we’d done something wrong, we would have been arrested already. All they’re doing is hurting my career.”
"Rossman also seemed to distance himself from his own lawyer Carl Salzmann’s statement that he had no memory of his final moments with Spierer."
“I never said that,” he told the paper. “You’re taking statements that were said by my lawyer. I never said I did or didn’t.”
Read the rest at the link above.
- Status