IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[akh]

Either MB last saw Lauren at his apartment or at JR's apartment.

Either MB was at JR's when Lauren was there, or he wasn't.

These are objectively differences, no? In fact, not emphasis. What you're saying, I think?, is that you don't think those differences are important. Denying you were at the last place someone went missing from (and then admitting it later after more evidence has come out) is suspicious in my books. That's also an opinion. So we can agree to disagree!

But we're not getting either account directly from MB and the account we got from the attorney was off the cuff and not a prepared statement. The 'differences' could easily be explained by the atty being not fully informed on a couple of points, misspeaking, etc... especially since they aren't key differences to the puzzle and they do not lock MB into anything since it isn't MB's words we're hearing.

With a prepared statement it would be different. In that case, MB would've had the opportunity to read the statement and sign off on it or make corrections until he was satisfied it was accurate.

If anything I actually give the PI version more weight because it's my feeling they are a little more in their wheelhouse than MB's atty dealing with this type of issue. They probably grilled him better and were unconcerned about being an advocate for him so probably didn't parse their words. But that's neither here nor there. The main thing is I don't trust the atty to be 100% accurate in his comments, even if he was trying to be, and just a small amount of misunderstanding, spin, or misspeaking could explain the differences in the two reports.

Don't get me wrong though, I do think some of the discrepancies in MB's accounts could be the mistakes of others. I'm not assuming the witness statements for example, are totally accurate. I'm just wondering where they came from.
When it comes to statements from the POI or from their lawyers, I feel a little differently. I just don't feel any obligation to give them the benefit of the doubt and ignore the sketchy parts of their sketchy stories, since they all have options they could have (and still could) take if they wanted to clear their names. (Mike Beth, you reading any of this? Want to know how to get strangers on the internet to stop calling you a liar? Take an LE polygraph )

I'm assuming LE has already been able to get statements and talk to the witnesses. So perhaps they have cleared this all up. Or perhaps they haven't, and that's why MB is a POI. They won't tell us. Given the Spierer's recent statements, it doesn't sound like they've ever been able to get a believable story from the guys at 5 N though.
!

At this point I don't consider the Spierer's to be able to objectively look at this case. There's too much emotion there. If they have a theory they'd like to tie to the known facts that is one thing, or if there is new info they can share that is another, but just their feelings on the case are probably too emotionally driven to be objective.

 

[Ixchel13]

bolded and enlarged by me. this is how things get started and then get inserted as reality.

AbbeyR, you said you "guessed it was a version of two rumors" lol

small or big, it's guess-version-rumors, I just found that sentence to be definitive of what's going on. For example, someone a long while back said the cadaver dog(s) hit on the dumpster, something never verified, and now
we hear people saying that the POIs must have placed Lauren there to die.

Someone started saying the POIs must have raped her, that's why they hid her body, and now some posters are certain they must have.

We haven't seen the video of her in the alley, yet we repeatedly have said that CR was dragging her up the alley.

Frankly, I don't believe what the bartenders and employees of Kilroys said.
They wouldn't go on record, give their names, etc. Instead, they closed Kilroys down during the beginning of the investigation and scattered employees and customer witnesses. Customer witnesses that may have contradicted the employees. Kilroy's has not done anything positive to help this case.

I'm not sure I believe the witness at 10th and College either. Another bartender. Kilroys again? Lauren had to be buzzed inside to knock on the door.
I think the witness at 10th and College was involved somehow. covering for someone, and not necessarily the perp.JMO

Not to mention, is a drunk or high witness as good as a sober one? At that hour, it's almost a sure thing that everyone involved was at least tipsy if not majorly effed up. That their stories are a little different doesn't strike me as deceitful at all, in fact if they all matched up perfectly, I would be even more suspicious.

IMO, everyone involved with this starts out by lying about the drugs. DR may have admitted to klonopin but nothing else. So everyone is lying, IMO, even the "good" players like her roommates, about their drug use. Lying about their drug use could be, is certainly, tinging all of almost everyone's testimonies! Leaving out what drugs THEY were doing/selling, not just Lauren, is leaving gaps and inconsistencies everywhere.

POIs could well be lying, but also others are lying. JMO

We keep talking about how the POIs are lying. Why not give the witnesses a poly? The bartender who saw her fall at 10th and College could have been meeting them there. who knows? All of these people could be lying about the drugs but not even be the perp.

 

[cluciano63]

Would her parents have to have her declared dead, in order to file a civil suit?
I know Paige Johnson's mother had her declared dead after a year, for legal reasons.

 

[AbbeyR]

But we're not getting either account directly from MB and the account we got from the attorney was off the cuff and not a prepared statement. The 'differences' could easily be explained by the atty being not fully informed on a couple of points, misspeaking, etc... especially since they aren't key differences to the puzzle and they do not lock MB into anything since it isn't MB's words we're hearing.

With a prepared statement it would be different. In that case, MB would've had the opportunity to read the statement and sign off on it or make corrections until he was satisfied it was accurate.

If anything I actually give the PI version more weight because it's my feeling they are a little more in their wheelhouse than MB's atty dealing with this type of issue. They probably grilled him better and were unconcerned about being an advocate for him so probably didn't parse their words. But that's neither here nor there. The main thing is I don't trust the atty to be 100% accurate in his comments, even if he was trying to be, and just a small amount of misunderstanding, spin, or misspeaking could explain the differences in the two reports.

All reasonable points. This conversation has made me think a little harder about the attorney statements, thanks!

At this point I don't consider the Spierer's to be able to objectively look at this case. There's too much emotion there. If they have a theory they'd like to tie to the known facts that is one thing, or if there is new info they can share that is another, but just their feelings on the case are probably too emotionally driven to be objective.

Well, I don't know any more than anyone else, but my impression is the opposite. To me it seems like they try to keep their emotions in check to look at the possibilities realistically, no matter how heartbreaking that may be. It's hard to know what they know, or what they think. I feel like they deserve not to be under scrutiny from us though. (Not directed at your comment specifically, just a general response to comments posted to the articles in the news, etc.) JMO

 

[Ros]

I don't know anything about civil suits. Do they mean to be effective, or is there some kind of official limit? What if more evidence comes up in the future? Right now Lauren is only officially 'missing'.

I think the statute of limitations for a wrongful death suit in Indiana is 2 years but I am not sure that the clock starts ticking when the person died or when the person's remains are found.

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title34/ar23/ch1.html

Molly Dattilo's family filed and won a civil lawsuit suit even though her body had not been found (and still has not been found). However, Molly's case was changed from "missing persons" to "homicide." Molly had been missing for about six years when her family won their suit. I don't know when the suit was filed.


http://www.lex18.com/news/molly-dat...t-against-men-suspected-in-her-disappearance/

http://www.myspace.com/mollydattilo/blog/445254462

 

[Jacobite]

I don't know anything about civil suits. Do they mean to be effective, or is there some kind of official limit? What if more evidence comes up in the future? Right now Lauren is only officially 'missing'.

It needs to be filed before 4 June, 2013 to be on the safe side. The purpose would to be to force these guys to sit down and tell the family all they know.
You take their depositions. This might be the last chance to get some answers. They need to sue for loss of love and affection.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

thank you for that. there is a tendency for humans to frame situations in terms of "what are the chances of x happening?" -- you have to think in terms of "there is a good chance x has happened" and work backwards. in other words, we're not focusing on the 1000 girls who were out late at night that night, we're focusing on the one who did in fact go missing.

What is "x" in this scenario?

ETA, Is "x" Lauren disappearing? Or being randomly abducted? Because I'm sure you're not saying this but just the way I interpreted it was "there is a good chance that she was the victim of a random abduction vs any other cause (namely the ones we have discussed here having to do with the POIs)" and work backwards.

 

[Ixchel13]

thank you for that. there is a tendency for humans to frame situations in terms of "what are the chances of x happening?" -- you have to think in terms of "there is a good chance x has happened" and work backwards. in other words, we're not focusing on the 1000 girls who were out late at night that night, we're focusing on the one who did in fact go missing.

yes this is what I have trying to put into words. Like Mickey Shunick, it is possible for a good girl to just be in the most horrible place at
the most exact time. Odds of this may be high, but these things happen
to people. Not only women in Bloomington, but also a few young men.
I'll have to look this up but I posted about a young guy, maybe in 2010 here, gets in an argument with his friends, rushes off into the night towards downtown B town and is never seen again! Of course they had a field day with his friends being suspects.

 

[EMM27]

I have a theory I've been working on, would like to see some feedback/discussion on it. Let me know if I'm incorrect about any facts. Here goes:

Lauren makes it to 5N, and specifically to JR's apartment. She is in bad shape. At JR's apartment is both JR and his friend and business partner, DB, who is visiting from University of Michigan (DB tweeted the following morning around 11am that he was eating at the Runcible Spoon, a nearby cafe).

At the apartment, Lauren's condition worsens. I won't speculate as to how bad she got, but I'd say it was bad enough that JR realized she was in trouble. I think earlier in the evening she had done various drugs that came from him, and he knew it. He and DB get her to DB's car, maybe even to take her to the hospital. They don't risk calling 911 to bring people right to them, either out of selfishness/fear or because they genuinely aren't sure Lauren is in emergency status.

The car doesn't get to a hospital, either because she dies in transit or is already dead. Instead they take it somewhere to ditch the body and dispose of whatever evidence remains in the car.

When they return, JR and DB discuss what to tell police when they eventually trace Lauren's footsteps back to JR's apartment. JR knows MB brought her over and will admit as much, so he can't lie about last seeing her. DB, probably in one of the empty rooms in the apartment when Lauren was initially brought over (other roommates had gone home), has no need to admit to being there, and so he is free to split.

They both realize though that other friends are aware of DB staying at the apartment, so DB leaving, especially in a vehicle, may look suspicious. DB goes to the Runcible Spoon as he indicates, and makes it publicly known that he is there and not hiding that fact. He is also saying he is there and not off somewhere disposing of a body, which happened many hours earlier.

So what do we do with this theory? How about look at DB's phone records and cellular tracking data. Where was his phone during this time? What about any financial transactions that morning or the next day, perhaps to clean the inside of his car?

Thoughts?

 

[masootz]

What is "x" in this scenario?

ETA, Is "x" Lauren disappearing? Or being randomly abducted? Because I'm sure you're not saying this but just the way I interpreted it was "there is a good chance that she was the victim of a random abduction vs any other cause (namely the ones we have discussed here having to do with the POIs)" and work backwards.

in this case "x" = "a girl goes missing". there's virtually no chance of a girl going missing. there are 150,000,000 girls/women in this country and 99.9999% of them don't go missing. so we're not starting out with "what are the chances of a girl going missing?", we are starting out with "a girl went missing". i wasn't speaking to anyone in particular, just saying we have to start with the knowledge that something extremely unlikely already happened.

 

[imkeylime]

I have a theory I've been working on, would like to see some feedback/discussion on it. Let me know if I'm incorrect about any facts. Here goes:

Lauren makes it to 5N, and specifically to JR's apartment. She is in bad shape. At JR's apartment is both JR and his friend and business partner, DB, who is visiting from University of Michigan (DB tweeted the following morning around 11am that he was eating at the Runcible Spoon, a nearby cafe).

At the apartment, Lauren's condition worsens. I won't speculate as to how bad she got, but I'd say it was bad enough that JR realized she was in trouble. I think earlier in the evening she had done various drugs that came from him, and he knew it. He and DB get her to DB's car, maybe even to take her to the hospital. They don't risk calling 911 to bring people right to them, either out of selfishness/fear or because they genuinely aren't sure Lauren is in emergency status.

The car doesn't get to a hospital, either because she dies in transit or is already dead. Instead they take it somewhere to ditch the body and dispose of whatever evidence remains in the car.

When they return, JR and DB discuss what to tell police when they eventually trace Lauren's footsteps back to JR's apartment. JR knows MB brought her over and will admit as much, so he can't lie about last seeing her. DB, probably in one of the empty rooms in the apartment when Lauren was initially brought over (other roommates had gone home), has no need to admit to being there, and so he is free to split.

They both realize though that other friends are aware of DB staying at the apartment, so DB leaving, especially in a vehicle, may look suspicious. DB goes to the Runcible Spoon as he indicates, and makes it publicly known that he is there and not hiding that fact. He is also saying he is there and not off somewhere disposing of a body, which happened many hours earlier.

So what do we do with this theory? How about look at DB's phone records and cellular tracking data. Where was his phone during this time? What about any financial transactions that morning or the next day, perhaps to clean the inside of his car?

Thoughts?

There's so much mystery about DB. I saw the Runcible Spoon tweet, but interests me is proof he WAS or WASN't there, e.g., a credit card receipt or actual sighting. Re phone records, financial transactions, etc.: I like to think that LE knows about DB allegedly being in Bloomington, since we all seem to. But I've also never seen direct evidence that he was there, except for the tweet (which like I said I did see). I do think that, if involved, he would have had resources at his fingertips. JMO.

 

[Dixie811]

EMM27,

I like your explanation of WHY JR was willing to take the fall as the last one to see Lauren. If something similar to what you described happened (MB brought Lauren over to JR's and left, leaving her with JR... I think there has been some debate/conflicting stories over how exactly this part of the story went down) then of course JR would have to admit to seeing her last. But, as your scenario shows, that does not mean that any other part of his story is true.

The trouble with tracking cellular data for any of these yahoos is that I am fairly certain they were all intelligent enough to know about cell phone pings. If JR/others left in a car for the purpose of disposing of Lauren, I believe they would have left cell phones in the apartment.

JMO. Doing some thinking on this case today...

 

[Dixie811]

Also, I was just thinking that if I was any of these young men (JR, DB or other POIs) and I transported a dead or dying LS in my car... as soon as I felt I was out of the immediate scrutiny of LE (home for the summer that year?) I would trade-in or sell my car and get a new one. Not only because it would be creepy to continue driving that car around, but at any time LE could come back with a warrant and do all sorts of testing on that vehicle. The families of these young men all seem to be fairly well off to me, I doubt a new vehicle would be out of the realm of possibility for them.

I cannot recall exactly, I think I remember that one POI's vehicle was searched? Was it CR? I don't remember.

I would love to know if JR, DB, or any of the other young men involved in Lauren's night replaced their vehicle within a few months of her disappearance.

 

[akh]

While selling a vehicle used in the commission of a crime might be something someone would do, that wouldn't eliminate LE from getting hold of the original vehicle just because there's a different owner.

I can't believe LE wouldn't bother to cross reference someone's ownership of a vehicle to see if that's really the vehicle (and only vehicle) they had at the time of LS' disappearance. In fact, that kind of transaction might be a perfect red flag to give LE the ammo needed for a search warrant and deeper digging on someone.

 

[Dixie811]

While selling a vehicle used in the commission of a crime might be something someone would do, that wouldn't eliminate LE from getting hold of the original vehicle just because there's a different owner.

I can't believe LE wouldn't bother to cross reference someone's ownership of a vehicle to see if that's really the vehicle (and only vehicle) they had at the time of LS' disappearance. In fact, that kind of transaction might be a perfect red flag to give LE the ammo needed for a search warrant and deeper digging on someone.

You are correct. However, I believe that this would be detrimental to a criminal case against the individual because, say now in 2013, the crime lab is able to find evidence of body decomposition within the vehicle (not specifically LS's or anyone else's DNA). LE would probably feel quite sure that this was indicative of LS being in said vehicle, but the vehicle being owned and driven by another individual for 2 years would perhaps take away some of the value of this find. (For example, if such evidence were involved in a trial the defense team could easily argue that this evidence indicating body decomp could just as easily be linked to the current owner of the vehicle). I'm not doing a very good job of articulating what I mean here, but I hope that y'all see what I am getting at. Of course, this scenario is disregarding that there could be other evidence in this hypothetical vehicle linking the vehicle directly to LS and a POI.

By now, I am sure several of the young men involved in this case have different vehicles. Many people obtain a new vehicle after graduating from college and beginning their first full-time job (although I have no doubt that LE would keep tabs on these type of things regarding the POIs). I am no law expert, but I don't think a POI selling a vehicle would be grounds for a search warrant on the vehicle. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong). Particularly if we are talking about DB. I'm sure he is/was on LE's radar, but if they ever put much pressure on him it was kept very quiet from the public.

JMO :seeya:

 

[Dixie811]

I have always considered Lauren's case in a way that implicated CR, MB, and JR together. They all appear to be backing each other's stories up, and none of them seem like particularly upstanding gentlemen in their actions toward Lauren that night (to me, IMO).

It is extremely possible or probable that JR, CR, and MB are all involved together but I always wondered how it was that LE wasn't able to "flip" any of these young men or play them against one another. Or even, how they could all keep quiet and not utter a word to a single girlfriend, friend, or acquaintance about their little 'alliance'. The more people who are involved in a secret, the more likely it will get out. Hiring lawyers helped with these issues, though.

But reading EMM27's post today opened my mind a little for some reason. I now see it as a possibility that MB and CR are being at least somewhat truthful and perhaps they weren't involved with the moment of Lauren's demise and her disposal. (Granted, I believe they contributed to her demise if even just by neglecting to get her medical attention).

If MB left LS at JR's and JR, alone, was present when LS died he could have disposed of her himself. Perhaps it is very convenient for JR that the other young men around LS that night seem so shady... it certainly does distract from the idea of JR being the lone suspect.

Many of us have questions about JR's out of town friend. Especially since I believe it is rumored that JR's car was in the shop when LS disappeared. But I guess the fact of the matter is that right now we don't really know enough about this individual's activities while in Bloomington to make an educated guess about what his involvement may or may not be.

JMO

 

[akh]

Dixie811,
I thought you meant almost immediately selling a vehicle. In context with the skepticism that might draw and the laser focus that might put on an individual which could gather other circumstantial evidence and suspicious pieces to fill in the puzzle I could see a judge signing off on a search warrant.

But selling a year or two later if anything would mitigate suspicion. That would seem like a normal thing that people do. To argue someone was selling a vehicle because it might contain evidence that could be used against them would have to be explained in context of of 'why now and not sooner'? So no, that shouldn't garner a search warrant IMHO.

But if for some reason the prior owner starts being strongly suspected in LS' disappearance and LE wants to get a look at that car it shouldn't be too hard (assuming they've not already inspected it). The new owners might not even concern themselves with a search warrant.

So 2 years out, let's say LE does inspect that car and finds trace evidence of some kind. If it directly ties to LS then how would the new owners be tied to that versus the prior owner? Assuming decomposition could be detected what connections do the current owners have to a missing girl versus the prior owner? And once you have that what other pieces start falling into place or who starts talking as stories start unraveling?

But....
I'm having a hard time imagining this hypothetical vehicle would've escaped detection in the first place. But considering the lack of official info and much confirmation of anything, it's certainly possible. It still leaves us left with speculating on speculation though.

 

[AbbeyR]

Many of us have questions about JR's out of town friend. Especially since I believe it is rumored that JR's car was in the shop when LS disappeared.

For the record, this rumor was started by JR's friend (and likely came from JR via his roommates or MB). The same friend was swearing to everyone that JR had taken an LE polygraph and other things that weren't true, so I'm personally assuming the 'car in the shop' rumor wasn't true either, unless there's some other source for this. JMO

 

[Dixie811]

For the record, this rumor was started by JR's friend (and likely came from JR via his roommates or MB). The same friend was swearing to everyone that JR had taken an LE polygraph and other things that weren't true, so I'm personally assuming the 'car in the shop' rumor wasn't true either, unless there's some other source for this. JMO

Thanks for that info, Abbey! After a while it is difficult to recall where certain rumors came from. You're top notch on keeping up with that stuff.

 

[EMM27]

EMM27,

The trouble with tracking cellular data for any of these yahoos is that I am fairly certain they were all intelligent enough to know about cell phone pings. If JR/others left in a car for the purpose of disposing of Lauren, I believe they would have left cell phones in the apartment.

That's part of the reason I bring this theory up. Where does DB say he is when Lauren arrives at JR's? Is he in the apartment? Is he awake? I would think they'd know not to bring phones, but that might be a clue. Are the phones both in the apartment? What if there is evidence that one or both of them is not while their phones are?

This might sound strange, but a lot of people were up late partying that night. Yet DB is off eating lunch at 11am the next morning and tweeting about it. I know 11am isn't early for most people, but for college students out partying the night before?

Feels like there should be more info about where he was during the hours in question.