IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[AbbeyR]

While the cases aren't at all similar, and no arrest has been made, Christopher Busch was briefly questioned in the OCCK (Oakland County Child Killer) case and not mentioned again for 30 years, when he became a suspect...<snipped>

Thanks ikl. In a case I mentioned seeing on the news a few days ago, someone was arrested in a two year old murder case, and it appears to have come as a surprise even to the close friends of the victim and suspect (He was her roommate). But, in that case, no other POI were named by LE at all. What I find hard to make sense of in this case is the idea that there would be POI who are in the spotlight, making statements through their lawyers to the media etc. and yet there would be one person in the group who manages not to be named by anyone, who would end up being the target of the investigation. Who knows... it just seems unlikely.

And, it's not a random coincidence to me that JR has hired a high profile team of defense lawyers or that CR and MB's lawyers have made some revealing statements about defending their clients. I don't really believe any of these guys are covering for anyone other than themselves. I don't know what they are covering up, but it seems obvious that they are all concealing information.

My feeling is that when this case moves forward it will be not because of conscience, but because somebody starts scrambling for plea deal.

 

[AbbeyR]

Thanks RoS, I saw the tweet too. It would be nice to have some confirmation that DB was actually at JR's that night though (as in, during the time that LS was supposedly at JR's and then left), if we are going to consider him a POI.

That IM article was just reporting on the rumor of the Tweet, not confirming anything, unfortunately.

ETA: It looks like Salzmann wasn't really sure about the numbers either... Here's an article published after the one quoted above:

Salzmann, the lawyer, said after Spierer accompanied Rossman home to his apartment, Rossman's roommate put him to bed.The lawyer said Spierer was seen by at least two other people after leaving Rossman's apartment.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-09-missing-indiana-student_n.htm

Keep in mind, we now know that at least MB "left Rossman's apartment" too.

The secrecy about who was at JR's is definitely weird though, so I'm not ruling anything out.

 

[imkeylime]

Thanks ikl. In a case I mentioned seeing on the news a few days ago, someone was arrested in a two year old murder case, and it appears to have come as a surprise even to the close friends of the victim and suspect (He was her roommate). But, in that case, no other POI were named by LE at all. What I find hard to make sense of in this case is the idea that there would be POI who are in the spotlight, making statements through their lawyers to the media etc. and yet there would be one person in the group who manages not to be named by anyone, who would end up being the target of the investigation. Who knows... it just seems unlikely.

And, it's not a random coincidence to me that JR has hired a high profile team of defense lawyers or that CR and MB's lawyers have made some revealing statements about defending their clients. I don't really believe any of these guys are covering for anyone other than themselves. I don't know what they are covering up, but it seems obvious that they are all concealing information.

My feeling is that when this case moves forward it will be not because of conscience, but because somebody starts scrambling for plea deal.

I agree they're most likely covering for themselves, though I think it's possible they're also covering for each other, or thought at one point they were covering for someone else, and are now caught in a web of lies.

The OCCK is very different: So many suspects over the years ... and now it appears they want to rule out John Wayne Gacy (wrong MO, IMO) for two of the murders. The dad of the last victim is in his '80s. Sad.

 

[Ixchel13]

There are quite a few assumptions that CR/MB and JR are telling the truth.
Because some facts are laced into their stories, does not make the stories themselves truth. They are still lies.

So, because JR is the only POI (that we know of) to acknowledge Lauren's injuries... We do not know if she was ever at JR's. If this is based purely on MB's and JR's word, it certainly can not be taken as fact. Because JR said he saw LS's injuries, does not mean that he in fact saw them. He could have been told about the faceplant video prior to making that statement. He could have been told about her injury by someone else. He could have saw the injury at CR/MB's but LS may never have made it to JR's. He could have seen the injury outside or in a vehicle or somewhere else. Someone may have taken a photo on their phone and showed him.... etc..

The faceplant video is the last hard fact of her whereabouts. If there is a witness other than the POI's that can back up that she was indeed at CR/MB's and/or JR's after faceplant, then they should speak up.

From the very beginning I see people operating on the assumption that all POI's are 100% telling the truth. From what we know, that just can't be.

LE has Lauren's phone. So they would have finger prints, and the record of everything happening on that phone that night, anything deleted, etc... A mobile phone today is a computer. And there would be phone company records of texts and calls. With respect to her being purposefully separated from her phone, it's a plausible theory, but as of yet, no fact to support it. LE should know by now if that theory has legs.

Still we are all waiting for a good story about why ZO hit CR. This was all on video. CR and ZO exchanged words but we do not know all of the words or what was driving the conflict. Public statements that came out initially made it SEEM like ZO was somehow protecting SW (how strange that was then and now absurd it is today) from the evil CR. If ZO had any concern for LS at all, it was not demonstrated on the video. She is just slipping down, having trouble standing while ZO and crew are not rushing to her aid. Further they just let her stumble out the door with CR. So I don't think the conflict was about LS. It is about time we know what the conflict was really about and that ZO make statements about it.

Your sequence seems a bit out of order... I've re-arranged the way I understand it:

LS is with people(WHO?) at SW who are watching BB (Person Q? is there) around 12:00 midnight (witnesses)

LS and DR go to JR's from SW to 5N (leaving at approx 12:15am and arriving at approx 12:30am). (Video and statements)

LS last known use of cell phone per CS is at 12:30am (likely she told someone she made it to JR's?)

DR leaves immediately after arriving at approx 12:30am (video and statements)

LS and CR go to Kilroys(Together is the assumption, there have been no comments about either's condition on the way to Kilroy's) (video, statements and possible witnesses)

(unverified rumor - LS is said to have boasted about taking Xanax and cocaine, while at Kilroy's)

LS and CR leave Kilroys and head to SW. (video, and possible witnesses)

LS leaves her shoes and cell phone at Kilroys. (This is the assumption, From videos it could be verified that she walked to Kilroy's with shoes and phone in hand or bulging from where she kept it, and then both missing on the return videos, this is something LE knows but we do not know.) (TIME approx 1:30am?)

LS and CR arrive at SW and go up to the 5th floor lobby but no further and don't enter anyone's apartment.(not sure if this detail is correct, but it was all on video) (TIME approx 1:45am?)

Then the altercation between CR and ZO. (Video, very little public statements from those who were there)

Then LS's out of the elevator fall. (Video, and note that ZO and crew do NOT help her)

LS and CR leave SW and head to 10th and College via the Alley (Video and possible witnesses) (TIME approx 2:00am?)

They knock on LS's girlfriends door (doors are external at 10th and College), getting no answer (They or just LS?) sit on the concrete front stoop(or stairs?) of this building. (Witnesses and possibly some video) (TIME approx 2:10am?)

Next we have LS's slump & bump on the stoop/stairs falling over sideways from a sitting position (which indicates that she is losing consciousness, not just motor control). (Witnesses) (TIME approx 2:20am?)

Then CR carries LS on his back (because she cannot walk, not because she enjoys piggy back rides) (Witnesses and possible video) (TIME approx 2:30am??)

Then at some point CR and LS start up the Alley from 10th and College towards 5N. (Video) (TIME approx 2:45am?)

LS's unblocked faceplant fall upon exit from the alley and loses her keys(not keycard or ID) and coin purse,(TIME 2:50am)

A person finds LS's keys and coin purse type wallet and places them on ledge and sees/hears nothing else (TIME approx 2:55am)

A second person (roommate of the one finding Keys and Wallet) sees Keys and Wallet on ledge (TIME approx 3:00am)

MB reports that CR and LS show up at CR/MB's apt at approx 3:00am CR vomits needs to be put to bed, says LS assists. Also says LS does not want to stay wants to keep partying. (In light of LS's condition just a few minutes prior and unblocked faceplant, these statements attributed to MB make no sense, MB does not say anything about injuries and makes it seem that CR is bad off and LS is in good shape, totally the opposite of what was observed by witnesses and on video just minutes before)

MB calls JR about LS(even though they live next door in the same building) (TIME 3:30am)

It is said by MB and JR that somehow LS goes to JR's (I've seen many conflicting statements about how LS got from CR/MB's to JR's, who was there, nor have seen no credible proof that she actually made it to JR's. The assumption has been that MB and JR are telling the truth but their statements conflict known facts and each other) (TIME approx 3:35am)

JR says he observes that LS is, to paraphrase "in bad shape". JR claims to notice LS's injuries and observes details about her toxication level, her behavior and supposedly that she only has her keycard and FAKE ID. (TIME approx 3:35 to 4:15am)

(LE disputed - Bartender witness claims to have seen LS being carried over someone's back at 3:38am just north of 10th and College)

JR says that LS makes 2 calls from his phone but that she mistakes an ipod for a phone. (TIME approx 4:15am)
Call # 1 is to DR - no answer
Call # 2 is to Person Q?

JR claims that LS passes his sobriety / walk test and allows LS to leave ALONE, BAREFOOT, PHONELESS and says he sees her walk down 11th towards N. College. He says he sees this from his little 2 foot balcony. (TIME approx 4:20 to 4:30am)

BBM. reading back over old posts. I'll say this again, as an unverified local,
this is one thing he is lying/evading about. Standing on his balcony, he CANNOT see Lauren turn the corner. Maybe at the corner, more likely right before she got to the corner. I do not think for a moment these POIs are not lying. They are lying about what they gave/sold Lauren and her friends. We cannot divorce Lauren from these other girls. They were all
in it together! She left at 12:30--running an errand for everyone else gone utter, horrible, disaster?
There were parties at all these different apartments, who needs boring old Kilroy's to actually have your real party? But was JW watching the game at Kilroy's or at home? Kilroy's was a weigh station gone bad. Abbey, you keep asking for proof that crime is going on at these bars.
I'm not sure just how jejeune you are, or if you just want more info than people are willing to risk.

 

[AbbeyR]

Abbey, you keep asking for proof that crime is going on at these bars.
I'm not sure just how jejeune you are, or if you just want more info than people are willing to risk.

I do? :waitasec: I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Ixchel13]

I do? :waitasec: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ok, I've owned a home here for 17 years, but all of my life I have visited
Btown and when I was in high school at a small town around here, always knew I wanted to live here.
I'm talking about you acting like there's nothing going on; or that we have to give you some sort of proof that something clandestine is happening in these bars, and Kilroy's at the top of the list! OMG. Knifings, beatings, raids bringing in over a hundred minors in just one night.
Thieves, rapists, drug dealers, gang members, you name it mix in with these innocent kids at these bars.
And running parallel to this is the Buskirk Chumley Theatre and several other
totally safe spots to have drinks or eat like any other town. I would welcome anyone else from this quirky town to talk about the different planes of existences here.

 

[AbbeyR]

Ok, I've owned a home here for 17 years, but all of my life I have visited
Btown and when I was in high school at a small town around here, always knew I wanted to live here.
I'm talking about you acting like there's nothing going on; or that we have to give you some sort of proof that something clandestine is happening in these bars, and Kilroy's at the top of the list! OMG. Knifings, beatings, raids bringing in over a hundred minors in just one night.
Thieves, rapists, drug dealers, gang members, you name it mix in with these innocent kids at these bars.
And running parallel to this is the Buskirk Chumley Theatre and several other
totally safe spots to have drinks or eat like any other town. I would welcome anyone else from this quirky town to talk about the different planes of existences here.

Ummmm, okay. Things are getting a little cray cray in here. Maybe you should ease up on those marshmallow bars, Ix.

 

[Ixchel13]

Ummmm, okay. Things are getting a little cray cray in here. Maybe you should ease up on those marshmallow bars, Ix.

BBM so that's what they're called?

 

[Ixchel13]

Don't ever eat a marshmallow or any other candy given out of context

 

[Ros]

Thanks RoS, I saw the tweet too. It would be nice to have some confirmation that DB was actually at JR's that night though (as in, during the time that LS was supposedly at JR's and then left), if we are going to consider him a POI.

That IM article was just reporting on the rumor of the Tweet, not confirming anything, unfortunately.

ETA: It looks like Salzmann wasn't really sure about the numbers either... Here's an article published after the one quoted above:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-09-missing-indiana-student_n.htm

Keep in mind, we now know that at least MB "left Rossman's apartment" too.

The secrecy about who was at JR's is definitely weird though, so I'm not ruling anything out.

''

The IM article also contains a quote from JR confirming that others were present at JR's and that LE is believed to have their names.

 

[Ixchel13]

Ummmm, okay. Things are getting a little cray cray in here. Maybe you should ease up on those marshmallow bars, Ix.

What I was trying to say about my home town is not "cray-cray". When Jill Berman disappeared in 1999, there was a man arrested in conjunction with her disappearance, Uriah Clouse, who was said to be bragging in a bar downtown about abducting her. He was a convicted rapist fresh out of jail, turns out he didn't do it but there he was in a bar with all the kids.
Bloomington is a crazy melting pot, I'm sure no different from alot of college towns surrounded by rural areas. Lotta meth labs and rolling meth labs are
found occasionally.
Also, the different planes of existences, I meant that it's also a great place to raise kids and there's so many healthy outlets for the college kids as well, but through the years the bar scene has gone from bad to worse and I would only give it a 2 on a scale of 10 for safety, and that's if you stick with your crowd.

 

[imkeylime]

What I was trying to say about my home town is not "cray-cray". When Jill Berman disappeared in 1999, there was a man arrested in conjunction with her disappearance, Uriah Clouse, who was said to be bragging in a bar downtown about abducting her. He was a convicted rapist fresh out of jail, turns out he didn't do it but there he was in a bar with all the kids.
Bloomington is a crazy melting pot, I'm sure no different from alot of college towns surrounded by rural areas. Lotta meth labs and rolling meth labs are
found occasionally.
Also, the different planes of existences, I meant that it's also a great place to raise kids and there's so many healthy outlets for the college kids as well, but through the years the bar scene has gone from bad to worse and I would only give it a 2 on a scale of 10 for safety, and that's if you stick with your crowd.

So from what you say and what I've read on-line, Kilroy's Sport caters to both students and locals more than Kilroy's on Kirkwood, which is more student-based. The first review at this link isn't exactly positive: http://www.insiderpages.com/b/3714470660/kilroys-sports-bar-bloomington. I'm curious as to what the reference to "wannabe Indiana thugs" is all about ...

Re: Uriah Close and the Jill Behrman case. I've read about him, though the info isn't particularly up to date. Also of interest at the time was "Stitch Boy," per an "Indianapolis Monthly" story about that case ...

IMO, the possibility of random abduction or stalking would be more probable if JR is lying about the timeline, since it would coincide more with the bars closing. But then I don't get why he'd stick his neck out and say she was at his place ...

 

[Ros]

''

The IM article also contains a quote from JR confirming that others were present at JR's and that LE is believed to have their names.

Oops. I meant a quote from JR's attorney.

 

[doubtingthomas]

When the search for LS was done does anyone know if it was only within the city limits of Btown? If not, how far out did the search cover? I am referring to the search by volunteers.

 

[AbbeyR]

''

The IM article also contains a quote from JR confirming that others were present at JR's and that LE is believed to have their names.

Thanks - like most other quotes by JR's attorneys, it's hard to tell if it confirms anything:

&#8220;There were other people around,&#8221; an attorney for Rosenbaum tells IM. &#8220;And I believe the police have all their names and information.&#8221;

- Who are 'other people': CR, MB, other?
- what does 'around' mean? JR's apt? 5 N? Around in general that night?
- why do they "believe" LE has the info? Were the names of his visitor(s) provided to LE by JR/ his lawyers or not?

Still...if it seems likely this guy was around that day and /or the next, I'd be curious to know if he was interviewed by LE. Has anyone found any relevant info beyond the tweet? Like: Did he drive to Bloomington? Alone or with others? Did he stay at JR's overnight? When did he leave? Does he have a criminal record?

 

[imkeylime]

Thanks - like most other quotes by JR's attorneys, it's hard to tell if it confirms anything:



- Who are 'other people': CR, MB, other?
- what does 'around' mean? JR's apt? 5 N? Around in general that night?
- why do they "believe" LE has the info? Were the names of his visitor(s) provided to LE by JR/ his lawyers or not?

Still...if it seems likely this guy was around that day and /or the next, I'd be curious to know if he was interviewed by LE. Has anyone found any relevant info beyond the tweet? Like: Did he drive to Bloomington? Alone or with others? Did he stay at JR's overnight? When did he leave? Does he have a criminal record?

I don't have answers to the above but will look around. I do know DB and JR share a past and a present (they founded a MI-based company together). The past includes a prestigious private school and a myspace page with something to do with social networking. I found it once and probably couldn't find it again.

What I get from the above is that they've worked as a team. But that's not a crime.

He's a UofM grad with good credentials. It's true that some questionable activity (UofM football player accused of rape) occurred at an apartment complex owned by his family. But that's extraneous info, IMO.

Edited to add: Check out the link from CBS-Detroit about the business venture (and comment at the bottom): http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/09/10/imovation-solutions-putting-the-fun-in-five-hour-energy/

 

[VeryVeritas]

While the cases aren't at all similar, and no arrest has been made, Christopher Busch was briefly questioned in the OCCK (Oakland County Child Killer) case and not mentioned again for 30 years, when he became a suspect. In the meantime, bloody ligatures found at his suicide scene, the year after the killings stopped, disappeared. Bye bye DNA. I believe a "team" committed the OCCK crimes, but Busch was known to be part of a pornographic ring (pedophiles) yet not focused on until recently. He was also the son of a high-profile General Motors executive (chief financial officer type).

Yes, I'm suggesting coverup. I really can't fathom that happening in modern-day Bloomington, though. While I believe DB was in Bloomington (I saw the Runcible Spoon tweet), he either has an alibi or is on LE's radar and we don't know it. JMO.

It's OT, but just wanted to say that Insider rings of the wealthy and powerful joined by common interests with the general spectrum of society down to the kidnappers and murders certainly still exist and probably have always existed. It's tricky to prove and certainly not found on a daily basis in every town, but it could happen in just about any town.

So, as it relates to this case, who would be covering up what?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I don't have answers to the above but will look around. I do know DB and JR share a past and a present (they founded a MI-based company together). The past includes a prestigious private school and a myspace page with something to do with social networking. I found it once and probably couldn't find it again.

What I get from the above is that they've worked as a team. But that's not a crime.

He's a UofM grad with good credentials. It's true that some questionable activity (UofM football player accused of rape) occurred at an apartment complex owned by his family. But that's extraneous info, IMO.

Edited to add: Check out the link from CBS-Detroit about the business venture (and comment at the bottom): http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/09/10/imovation-solutions-putting-the-fun-in-five-hour-energy/

For all of the thousands of posts read here, I've never seen this discussed:

What Cities have the highest violent crime rates in the USA?
Flint, Michigan is #1 and neighbor
Detroit, Michigan is #2

fyi ST. Louis, MO #3
Oakland, CA #4
Memphis, TN #5

It's no secret that perps committing violence elsewhere in the USA often stem from or have links to places where such crime flourishes.

In this case, the ties to Detroit, ring some bells for me.
Especially when you are talking about friends visiting from there the same time that LS goes missing.

It's just another subtle factor that might cause one eyebrow to rise.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Thanks RoS, I saw the tweet too. It would be nice to have some confirmation that DB was actually at JR's that night though (as in, during the time that LS was supposedly at JR's and then left), if we are going to consider him a POI.

That IM article was just reporting on the rumor of the Tweet, not confirming anything, unfortunately.

ETA: It looks like Salzmann wasn't really sure about the numbers either... Here's an article published after the one quoted above:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-09-missing-indiana-student_n.htm

Keep in mind, we now know that at least MB "left Rossman's apartment" too.

The secrecy about who was at JR's is definitely weird though, so I'm not ruling anything out.

Seems to be a linchpin.

What was going on post that 3:30am MB to JR call and who was there?

 

[VeryVeritas]

[/B]

BBM. reading back over old posts. I'll say this again, as an unverified local,
this is one thing he is lying/evading about. Standing on his balcony, he CANNOT see Lauren turn the corner. Maybe at the corner, more likely right before she got to the corner. I do not think for a moment these POIs are not lying. They are lying about what they gave/sold Lauren and her friends. We cannot divorce Lauren from these other girls. They were all
in it together! She left at 12:30--running an errand for everyone else gone utter, horrible, disaster?
There were parties at all these different apartments, who needs boring old Kilroy's to actually have your real party? But was JW watching the game at Kilroy's or at home? Kilroy's was a weigh station gone bad. Abbey, you keep asking for proof that crime is going on at these bars.
I'm not sure just how jejeune you are, or if you just want more info than people are willing to risk.

The trip to Kilroys seemed extremely curious to me. She didn't spend much time at JR's really. And she was already with CR, not meeting up with him. So, the question has been popping up... WHY KILROYS?

Are you suggesting that LS was making a drop there? Or what?

Have you heard of bartenders in the area slipping something to people who are out of line... say drawing too much attention to what might be going on at Kilroys? In the old days, a real Jerk at a bar would be slipped a Mickey Finn... then came the age of Bouncers.... so what is Kilroy's method? Especially if the management were involved in distribution of some sort?
One would have to rule out something like this going on at Kilroy's so appreciate the implications.