IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[AbbeyR]

Looks like Bx2 had the same thought about the keg (but a lot quicker!) --the day after the video came out: ([ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7990480&postcount=508"]post[/ame])

Bx2 wrote: I was interested in the keg of beer mentioned also. You have to register at the liquor stores for kegs purchased and it might be another as of yet unnamed person that bought it. Even if JR bought it, the liquor store should have video of someone that helped him carry it out.

edit- also if JR didn't have a vehicle, that keg wasn't rolling itself over

 

[Ixchel13]

:yellow:Quote:
Originally Posted by akh
I still don't understand the insistence that she was trying to get away from CR. She had that opportunity at SW apparently. And she allegedly had protectors there that punched CR. How could he have taken her from there at this point against her will?

Also, the PI's reported a 'piggy-back' ride. That's not something that can happen without the 'rider' being a willing participant. Am I remembering the term the PI used when I say 'piggy back'? Initially I believe the term we heard (and I think the 3:38AM witness and Gatto is where this originated) was 'thrown over his shoulder' but IIRC the PI's clarified this to 'piggy-back' ride. Big difference in those two things.

In the lohud video, the PI's describe this as Lauren being 'slung across [CR's] back', CR bent over and LS 'kind of dangling off his back' (he physically shows what he means). This prompts the reporter to ask if she was conscious, and the PI says yes, she was "alive and well... I mean, I don't know how well... but she was alive"

http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/16...nclick_check=1 @ around 4 min.

But it does sound like up until that point, she was with CR willingly, although her judgment was obviously impaired.

I wish it was clearer from that video what came from a witness account. It's hard to tell.

Abbey this was your post #976 discussing the piggy back ride back in Dec BBM

 

[AbbeyR]

Quote:
In the lohud video, the PI's describe this as Lauren being 'slung across [CR's] back', CR bent over and LS 'kind of dangling off his back' (he physically shows what he means). This prompts the reporter to ask if she was conscious, and the PI says yes, she was "alive and well... I mean, I don't know how well... but she was alive"

http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/16...nclick_check=1 @ around 4 min.

But it does sound like up until that point, she was with CR willingly, although her judgment was obviously impaired.

I wish it was clearer from that video what came from a witness account. It's hard to tell.

Right, I said the above in response to calling it a "piggyback ride" in that conversation with akh -- the key point being that 'piggy back ride' implies "willing participant" and harmless fun (see Akh's part of [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8674038&postcount=976"]the post [/ame]you quoted). The PI's never called it that, and I think it's misleading.

We can agree to disagree though

.

 

[Ixchel13]

Right, I said the above in response to calling it a "piggyback ride" in that conversation with akh -- the key point being that 'piggy back ride' implies "willing participant" and harmless fun (see Akh's part of the post you quoted). The PI's never called it that, and I think it's misleading.

We can agree to disagree though

Abbey, I was not disagreeing, honestly, I was saying it was described as such. On this subject, the alley, I don't have much opinion at all.
Let's say Lauren did leave and go to the corner and even turn right and head for SW. Someone could exit JR's, or any of the other connected townhomes (CRs, or ?s), from the back door and catch up with Lauren
by going the back way and even get ahead of her and pull her in from a walkway between buildings, off camera. They called the second guy from JRs phone at 4:15ish and left a message. What if this person actually got the message right away, didn't pick up, yet called another person?

 

[akh]

I just want to say that the idea of a stranger/semi-stranger abduction is not the piddling .001 per cent that is being accepted here. If she walked out that door, the percentage of a stranger abduction totally eclipses the POIs.

You're exactly right.

It doesn't have to be a 'stranger' abduction but there needs to be some thought about 'if' she walked out JR's door what that means to the case.

 

[VeryVeritas]

:yellow:Quote:
Originally Posted by akh
I still don't understand the insistence that she was trying to get away from CR. She had that opportunity at SW apparently. And she allegedly had protectors there that punched CR. How could he have taken her from there at this point against her will?

Also, the PI's reported a 'piggy-back' ride. That's not something that can happen without the 'rider' being a willing participant. Am I remembering the term the PI used when I say 'piggy back'? Initially I believe the term we heard (and I think the 3:38AM witness and Gatto is where this originated) was 'thrown over his shoulder' but IIRC the PI's clarified this to 'piggy-back' ride. Big difference in those two things.

In the lohud video, the PI's describe this as Lauren being 'slung across [CR's] back', CR bent over and LS 'kind of dangling off his back' (he physically shows what he means). This prompts the reporter to ask if she was conscious, and the PI says yes, she was "alive and well... I mean, I don't know how well... but she was alive"

http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/16...nclick_check=1 @ around 4 min.

But it does sound like up until that point, she was with CR willingly, although her judgment was obviously impaired.

I wish it was clearer from that video what came from a witness account. It's hard to tell.

Abbey this was your post #976 discussing the piggy back ride back in Dec BBM

After leaving Kilroy's Lauren does not appear coherent enough to escape from anything, her battle is mainly to stay on 2 feet. The only thing that appears to point to escape is the stop at 10th and College and knocking on the door of friends who did not answer. (bet they feel horrible about that).
It could also be argued that she was not happy with ZO policing SW and felt intimidated and sexually threatened by him and his "gang". Really bizarre that he is allowed to operate that way with totally impunity in a building where he does not even live.

There is no proof that she made it to or out of JR's after the video/cam recorded unblocked faceplant exiting the alley. If LE has proof of either it would change my thinking. If I'm over looking some shred of proof other than the statements of 2 liars, then please post. The only thing I can see that causes JR to get involved at all is the call from MB at 3:30. That can't undo that.

Out of town friends of POI's are definitely the second most likely group way before random strangers. Why do they come to Bloomington to party from out of state, not going to school there or living there? It's not rocket science.

 

[AbbeyR]

They called the second guy from JRs phone at 4:15ish and left a message. What if this person actually got the message right away, didn't pick up, yet called another person?

The PI's say no messages were left. See the article posted above!

 

[imkeylime]

... But it does sound like up until that point, she was with CR willingly, although her judgment was obviously impaired.

I've been thinking about what CS said about the last time LS used her cell and how JR says she called from 5N using his phone (land line). Last night, my daughter freaked me out by texting from a going-away party (where she was spending the night) that she'd misplaced her phone. But she'd borrowed a cell to text me. When she did find her phone, it soon went dead ... and she borrowed another cell to text me that. Which made me think ...

LS was supposed to meet with JW later that night, correct? CS says she last used her cell when leaving SW ... and didn't contact JW all night from what we've been told. I wonder if that was because of 1) her condition or 2) she needed space for some reason that night.

I'm assuming CR had a cell LS could have borrowed to contact JW. Or, she could have borrowed a cell from someone at Sports. So I have to assume she went willingly with CR, given that she followed him from Sports and SW. But that doesn't mean she had much control over her actions after a certain point in the night, IMO.

Also ... I wonder about the use of the land line at JR's vs. his cell. Less incriminating ... or is there another reason? (Also, am I right that the call was made from his home phone vs. cell?)

 

[VeryVeritas]

Being a feminist I am fully aware of the history of rape, having participated in the first Take Back The Night. Weirdly, once women fully took back the night, i.e. the behavior of the young women here, no fear of being out at all hours, they at once become free and also potential victims, every one of them who ventures away from their safe spot, i.e. again, the people they are out with. I agree with you, VV, at the same time disagree with you.
If the group of POIs were arrested today and confessed, to me that would be the "best" outcome, because Lauren would not have been hurt by a deviant stranger. But as a citizen of this town, even if the outcome is grisly and a terrible story to live with, IF it is someone other than the POIs, this person needs to be found.
I think it's safe to assume these kids were all high. Why would their stories be exactly the same? As I have said before, if their stories were exactly the same, then I would be more inclined to think they were lying, not the other way around.
Another thing different in this culture today is the importance of their "futures". Obviously, their parents won't even stand for a drug charge against their precious little angels and won't let them talk for fear of them not being able to become doctors, lawyers, judges, president. They have all been advised to keep totally quiet. Pointing the finger at someone at the edge of their group as possibly backtracking and abducting Lauren might lead to questions about how and why they knew this person. My bet is that these parents won't even let these kids tell THEM what they know, that's how tight they want to keep it.
If the dogs had signalled a death at the dumpster next to 5N, the boys could be brought in and held for questioning for 24 hours. This was not done.
My guess is that they have some sort of proof that Lauren left JRs. Which
doesn't necessarily clear the POIs, because anyone could have followed her and might have.
I think it was Abbey who wondered if any of the people involved had trouble with the law for any kind of sexual battery. Yes. The out of town guest who tweeted from Runcible Spoon about corned beef. His father owns an apt. bldg
in (Michigan?) and one of his friends, DB's friend, a football player, was investigated for attacking a female in that building. Was he with DB at 5N?
All of you people who don't live in Bloomington, I hope you understand my
very real anxiety that there is a killer on the loose here. If this is true, we owe it to Lauren and to her parents and all the people who live here to investigate the possibility that her friends didn't kill her. If they did, I hope they trip up and spend the rest of their lives in prison for hurting Lauren and terrorizing her family and this whole town.
And in a spirit of good will and not spite, I just want to say that the idea of a stranger/semi-stranger abduction is not the piddling .001 per cent that is being accepted here. If she walked out that door, the percentage of a stranger abduction totally eclipses the POIs.

So there is no dispute that there is a very strong predatory/hunter instinct that afflicts a high % of males? Only the naive do not get that.

Then the question rightly becomes which group of predators (or which individual predator) is really responsible?

1) Immediate POI's - I'm not going to write off MB's impossible mischaracterization of LS from unblocked faceplant to minutes later helping put CR to bed to then party animal without any notice of injury. This isn't a POV or an oversight on his part, it's a FREAKING BALD FACED LIE.
JR is telling his story I think because MB called him and perhaps there were witnesses that had to admit LS was there at JR's after 3:30. But oddly there are no public statements from them and so it can not be assumed that she ever made it to JR's. MB claims to have been studying and only have had a beer - he is not claiming to have been "high" and out of it at all. JR's recollection of details, supposed observations of LS and her condition are are pretty good for someone who was "high". CR was able to carry LS, after being clocked in the face, there is no one claiming he fell down or footage of him slamming his head down or losing consciousness. So he was doing pretty good for being "high".
2) JR's out of town visitors and other peripheral characters. Ixchel, your points about this are well taken. If these visitors were all male, there would be little question in my mind that they were there for some action if they could find it. What is frustrating is there is no clear list of exactly who was at CR/MB's and JR's during those crucial hours, where they live, when they left, where they parked, their vehicles, etc...
3) ZO and his "gang" - Do they all have iron-clad alibis for their whereabouts after LS left SW after the CR-ZO altercation? This bunch stinks too.
3) Bloomington area late night predatory lurker rapist killer.
Unlikely, but still possible.
4) Totally unconnected, non-local, random abductor.
Extremely unlikely but possible.


Aside from this list of predatory likeliness is the usual likeliness of significant other. So far nothing to implicate JW at all. But sure, that remains at this point an unlikely possibility as well.

Evidence is the key to rule possibilities in or out.

Since you brought up JR's visitors, one (of many) things that bothers me about them is that if JR is truthful and if he really did see LS leave as he says, would he not have some sense of the possibility of his own Visitor(s) being involved? Over the years I've been around many groups of people, and when there are groups mostly or entirely composed of men the conversations can be astonishing when they talk in predatory fashion.
You would think you could get a sense of who would be capable of such an act... but no... even those with obvious aggressive tendencies are not always the one. I've seen seemingly very respectful ordinary guys, corner a girl and pounce on her because they thought no one else was around.
Sure it would all be so much easier if perps looked like Freddie Krueger wearing hoodies. But that's not how it is.

 

[VeryVeritas]

The PI's say no messages were left. See the article posted above!

perhaps the calls were a signal and no answer was necessary.

 

[Ixchel13]

So there is no dispute that there is a very strong predatory/hunter instinct that afflicts a high % of males? Only the naive do not get that.

Then the question rightly becomes which group of predators (or which individual predator) is really responsible?

1) Immediate POI's - I'm not going to write off MB's impossible mischaracterization of LS from unblocked faceplant to minutes later helping put CR to bed to then party animal without any notice of injury. This isn't a POV or an oversight on his part, it's a FREAKING BALD FACED LIE.
JR is telling his story I think because MB called him and perhaps there were witnesses that had to admit LS was there at JR's after 3:30. But oddly there are no public statements from them and so it can not be assumed that she ever made it to JR's. MB claims to have been studying and only have had a beer - he is not claiming to have been "high" and out of it at all. JR's recollection of details, supposed observations of LS and her condition are are pretty good for someone who was "high". CR was able to carry LS, after being clocked in the face, there is no one claiming he fell down or footage of him slamming his head down or losing consciousness. So he was doing pretty good for being "high". 2) JR's out of town visitors and other peripheral characters. Ixchel, your points about this are well taken. If these visitors were all male, there would be little question in my mind that they were there for some action if they could find it. What is frustrating is there is no clear list of exactly who was at CR/MB's and JR's during those crucial hours, where they live, when they left, where they parked, their vehicles, etc...
3) ZO and his "gang" - Do they all have iron-clad alibis for their whereabouts after LS left SW after the CR-ZO altercation? This bunch stinks too.
3) Bloomington area late night predatory lurker rapist killer.
Unlikely, but still possible.
4) Totally unconnected, non-local, random abductor.
Extremely unlikely but possible.


Aside from this list of predatory likeliness is the usual likeliness of significant other. So far nothing to implicate JW at all. But sure, that remains at this point an unlikely possibility as well.

Evidence is the key to rule possibilities in or out.

Since you brought up JR's visitors, one (of many) things that bothers me about them is that if JR is truthful and if he really did see LS leave as he says, would he not have some sense of the possibility of his own Visitor(s) being involved? Over the years I've been around many groups of people, and when there are groups mostly or entirely composed of men the conversations can be astonishing when they talk in predatory fashion.
You would think you could get a sense of who would be capable of such an act... but no... even those with obvious aggressive tendencies are not always the one. I've seen seemingly very respectful ordinary guys, corner a girl and pounce on her because they thought no one else was around.
Sure it would all be so much easier if perps looked like Freddie Krueger wearing hoodies. But that's not how it is.

BBM I don't remember any of these people, from HT and Rommates, to ZO and gang, to JR and gang, to JW and gang, ever admitting they were high. So are we to assume all these people were not high, but Lauren was?
IMO, the out of towners brought in something and everyone was going up to 5N getting it and then spreading it up and down the block. Maybe ZO was being left out of this loop and it pissed him off that CR wasn't. If it was someone from 5N my guess would be the out of towners before residents. I think MB was high. I think they all were.

 

[Jacobite]

Again! Please watch the video. After being punched by Zack Oakes, Corey falls and his head slams to the floor. The floor is hard tile. I believe the tile is made from stone. An IU student who claims to have witnessed this first hand told me they kicked Corey Rossman in the head when he was down. There were 4 guys confronting him.

 

[CoolJ]

Kicked him in the head while he was down...hmmm... thats new, haven't heard that before. You have to think though, why would they lay a beating on him and then just let him walk away with LS. I am starting to think that finding out what this whole incident was actually about we would be a giant step closer to finding out what happened to LS. Combine this with HT's statement that LS "just went too far this time" and I think we will be heading down the path to some real answers.

 

[AbbeyR]

It seems like ZO has been the target of a lot of (possibly unfair) rumors, since none have turned out to be substantiated by anything, as far as I can tell.

If you take away anonymous sources and comments from the POI's friends and lawyers, who obviously have an interest in making ZO out to be the bad guy, the story (as reported) is that several people thought CR was acting aggressively and inappropriately towards Lauren. ZO seems to be one of only two people who actually stepped up to intervene.

Maybe there's more to the story, but there's never been any evidence of anything, and he's never been named as a POI, or called out by the Spierers or the media, AFAIK. It's also possible that as witnesses, the people involved in the 'altercation' were asked not to talk to the media, so have never been able to tell their story.

I really don't know, and I'm not invested in any theory about ZO one way or the other. I'm just skeptical of the rumors because of all of the craziness on Gatto's blog, etc. It made me wonder why people were trying so hard to make him out as the bad guy, and why, if any of it were true, it was never backed up by anything at all. I stopped paying attention after the posts about the (fake ?) sister.

I'd love to hear Tony Gatto's take on all of that now...

 

[Jacobite]

The silence from Jesse and the other PsOI in this case sets this case apart from other missing person cases. The silence is strange, very very strange. Most people would want to clear their name. Your name is your most valuable thing. The silence is creepy and most strange. Makes them look guilty. Maybe they will speak up on Dateline.

 

[akh]

It seems like ZO has been the target of a lot of (possibly unfair) rumors, since none have turned out to be substantiated by anything, as far as I can tell.

Has anything about anybody really been substantiated? There's hardly been anything officially substantiated... I mean there are still questions about the bar employee witness and the timeline.

I think about the only thing that has been said 'officially' that clears anything up is that the white truck was cleared.... And even with that we don't know why the truck was deemed suspicious versus any other vehicles since the timestamp discrepancy shouldn't have solely affected the truck (unless it was the only vehicle on the streets that night).

 

[AbbeyR]

Has anything about anybody really been substantiated? <snipped>

Yes, a lot has been substantiated. Comparing ZO to the others:

- We know JR, CR, MB and JW were named as POI
- We know their houses were searched
- We know they were asked and refused to take LE polygraphs
- Rumors about their previous records (drinking, drugs, breaking into smallwood etc.) were reported by MSM, and can be looked up in the MyCase Indiana system
- JR, CR and MB have also given accounts through their lawyers, giving their version(s) of the stories that were reported in the news and told by the police at the Press conferences and other statements related to their involvement with the case.
- there are witnesses, video evidence, etc. that can be used to evaluate these accounts

And so on...


Most of the things that were said about ZO, other than the fact that he punched CR, were said in anonymous comments, never mentioned by LE or by the media. I see a big difference.

 

[Jacobite]

Wait a minute. If some guy had just kicked my *advertiser censored* and I was fleeing? I don't think I'd feel safe sitting down on the steps to his home, like CR did.
Then we find that Lauren was camping out with both these guys just days before she went missing. It was HT who introduced Lauren to Corey Rossman. They thought he was the fun funny guy. Fun to be around.
Next, I recall an article written by a woman who said her daughter hangs with Corey Rossman. She was defending both CR and ZO. Said the police were on the wrong trail. Then AB tweets that ZO was fighting with all his friends that week and had kicked doors in the apartment. So, I suspect ZO and CR were friends and that's why Corey did not file charges.

 

[AbbeyR]

I'm not following... Article about CR and ZO? Lauren was camping out with ZO??

Can people post links if they are not talking about the key articles (Like from Lohud) that we talk about all the time? Or at least give context?

Saying that you heard something somewhere or are pretty sure you read it on the internet just adds to the confusion.

 

[Jacobite]

Jesse Wolff is the only POI who was not camping out with them. They are all friends of HT.