IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

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I for one am getting frustrated with my own circular thinking on this.

I feel the same way (about my own circular thinking, not yours :) )


On a positive note, there was a story on the news this morning about an arrest for a murder that happened 2 years ago in my city - It came as a surprise to everyone, but it looks like LE had tons of evidence, they just didn't tell the public about it. So you never know... Holding out hope that the investigation is moving forward, somewhere.
 
[QUOTE=AbbeyR;8903444]It's not a mystery to me, and I don't see anyone applying 70's, 80's or 90's logic... I'm not even sure what you mean.

Also, calling it a piggyback is a little misleading, IMO.
http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use?nclick_check=1[/QUOTE]

The logic I'm talking about is assuming that every guy is out for sex if he's
partying with a woman. My generation coined the phrases 'three's a crowd' and 'fifth wheel' indicating someone is keeping them from scoring.

These kids group date and hook up. Hooking up isn't exclusive. Lauren and Jesse were exclusive, yet he "allowed" her to party freely with other guys and wasn't concerned that she would hook up. In my day, the other guys would consider me on the prowl, but these kids don't consider it that. If Lauren did in fact think she was on the prowl, then, the other girls might think it was a great chance to ruin her relationship with Jesse by hiding Lauren's phone, or even sending the texts on her phone to Jesse.
HT was very fond of Jesse and said it often.
Abbey, no offense but people get mugged in this town on a nightly basis.
I had an employee (girl) who woke up at 6 a.m. in the upstairs bathroom at
the Irish Lion, her pants were next to her. No employees were there, the place was all locked and she ran out the fire exit. Purses, backpacks, coats,
all these things are systematically stolen.
I personally fired a waitress who took a customer's charge card to hold for his tab, gave it to her boyfriend who ran around town charging 5,000 on it while she flirted with him, got him drunk and then blithely gave the card back to him when the guy got back. He had gone to WalMart, Bed Bath and beyond, Best Buy and 2 filling stations.
Her purse and keys were found but was there a video showing her dropping them?
Again, no offense, but you often present yourself as the only one with any logic and as a person going by just the facts but some of these facts are from
people sharing second hand info. The PI's said Lauren was very much alive
and it has been decribed as a piggy back ride.
If the POIs were all arrested tomorrow it's totally believable but until that day, I am going to make that big assumption that someone may be out there,
and assuring these kids that just these POIs did it is dangerous, to them, and
allowing a possible killer to think he can do it again and again.
 
First post and hope I did it correctly! Been here since the beginning and then registered so I could show my appreciation to all of you in your continued efforts to find Lauren - you are all truly amazing people!

I was taken aback when seeing Ros' post because I woke up this morning and thought the very same thing! I don't recall ever seeing manhole covers mentioned!

Once again, all of you are wonderful people and the missing and their families are so lucky to have you. You don't give up - your type are far and few between. Thank you - you have my deepest gratitude.

Welcome, Kadence! I agree with your thinking .. the idea of manholes has always freaked me out in terms of this case.

Then, having just returned from a short hotel stay with my daughter during Feb. break, I saw this (and was doubly freaked out): http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/21/us/california-hotel-water-corpse/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

LS was so tiny ... she could easily have been disposed of in such a manner I bet (disgusting image, I know). I sometimes question how a car could have taken her away without being detected. The answer might be that she wasn't taken away at all. I wonder if there were any manholes, etc., near the construction area behind 5N. Or any other things related to Public Works?
 
... The logic I'm talking about is assuming that every guy is out for sex if he's
partying with a woman. My generation coined the phrases 'three's a crowd' and 'fifth wheel' indicating someone is keeping them from scoring.

These kids group date and hook up. Hooking up isn't exclusive. Lauren and Jesse were exclusive, yet he "allowed" her to party freely with other guys and wasn't concerned that she would hook up. In my day, the other guys would consider me on the prowl, but these kids don't consider it that. If Lauren did in fact think she was on the prowl, then, the other girls might think it was a great chance to ruin her relationship with Jesse by hiding Lauren's phone, or even sending the texts on her phone to Jesse.
HT was very fond of Jesse and said it often....

Snipped by me. While I do think it probable that CR had something more than friendship in mind, I agree with your post. LS hanging out at JR's and even going to CR's place and Sports with CR is common behavior today, from what I've seen. My daughter has a number of guy friends who she "chills" with, which drives me a little crazy, TBH. But hanging out doesn't necessarily mean wanting to date or even hook up, IMO.

Re: HT, other girls, and LS. I do find young women rather catty at this age (particularly in some friend groups). I base this comment on what I hear from son (college age) and daughter (late HS). Some of the resulting behavior is pretty passive-aggressive. You may be on to something, IMO ...
 
Lauren and Jesse were exclusive, yet he "allowed" her to party freely with other guys and wasn't concerned that she would hook up.

Wait a minute... How do we know this? Early on I'm sure we were told LS didn't even know CR until or around the Indy 500. Has this been updated? There is talk that LS and JW's relationship might've been in a rocky patch around this period of time. Where are we getting it that JW was OK with any of this or this was normal behavior?

Isn't it possible this potential rocky patch in the relationship was the cause of, or caused by, the Indy 500 meeting and then this followup meeting?

I might've missed something... or at this point even forgotten it.
 
Again, no offense, but you often present yourself as the only one with any logic and as a person going by just the facts but some of these facts are from
people sharing second hand info. The PI's said Lauren was very much alive
and it has been decribed as a piggy back ride.

Sorry, I thought we were both talking about the same source -- The account given by the PI's.

Who described it as a "piggy back ride"? Do you have a link? TIA
 
LS was so tiny ... she could easily have been disposed of in such a manner I bet (disgusting image, I know). I sometimes question how a car could have taken her away without being detected. The answer might be that she wasn't taken away at all. I wonder if there were any manholes, etc., near the construction area behind 5N. Or any other things related to Public Works?

BBM. Me too, although Btown's last post made me question whether cars would have necessarily been caught on camera.

It's also possible that she was taken in a car later (or earlier) than JR's timeline suggests.
 
BBM. Me too, although Btown's last post made me question whether cars would have necessarily been caught on camera.

It's also possible that she was taken in a car later (or earlier) than JR's timeline suggests.

Btown's post was enlightening, so yes, I agree. Re: taken in a car later: I've never been able to discern if dogs did or did not get a "hit" on the dumpster behind 5N. If they did, and yet no body was discovered in the landfill (assuming the search was conducted in a comprehensive manner), I wonder if LS could have been left behind the fence around the dumpster and then moved before sunrise. I remember once checking when sunrise was on June 3 but don't remember what I found.

I just keep going back to how tiny she was. I'm afraid she could have been easily concealed/moved, which is disheartening in terms of determining where she might be. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think that the real hope for this case involves somebody getting a conscience.
 
Someone reminded me recently that the PI video mentioned a keg of beer at JR's the night Lauren went missing. JR (supposedly) told his friends he didn't have a car that night, though this has never been confirmed... Did someone else pick it up and return it? Was it delivered? Don't you have to fill out some kind of registration thingy when you buy a keg? Wonder if anyone ever looked into that.

I know, I know, this really is grasping at straws, but it could show who had a car that day (or the next) at 5 N, And who provided the alcohol... :innocent:
 
Someone reminded me recently that the PI video mentioned a keg of beer at JR's the night Lauren went missing. JR (supposedly) told his friends he didn't have a car that night, though this has never been confirmed... Did someone else pick it up and return it? Was it delivered? Don't you have to fill out some kind of registration thingy when you buy a keg? Wonder if anyone ever looked into that.

I know, I know, this really is grasping at straws, but it could show who had a car that day (or the next) at 5 N, And who provided the alcohol... :innocent:

Grasping at straws is better than grasping at nothing. :) Re: P/U or delivery: Big Red Liquors (which provides kegs in Bloomington) appears to NOT deliver to some places at IU. I'm not sure if 5N would be classified as one of them (what is the Indiana ATC?). But two forms of ID would be required to get a keg. If one was picking up, I'd think that registration would be one of them. Here's a link:

http://www.bigredliquors.com/page.php?id=delivery

There's another company that provides kegs for P/U in Indy, but I remember Jupiter or someone else local mentioning Big Red before.
 
It's great that people here disagree and no one gets snarky, who knows maybe a disagreement will spark an important clue.

To think there may be an alternative to the POIs is not the same as defending them. It would be grossly negligent for LE to not be investigating any other alternative scenarios and suspects.

About the night in question, after hearing all the people in questions' stories,
oddly, or maybe not so oddly, there are no recountings of hook ups--not one.
Like HT saying a guy stayed over, or ZO having a girlfriend over to vouch for
his whereabouts, or one of JW's roomies having a chick over. It's like they telegraph it somehow that it's not a "date night." Possibly because they are all hooked in by I Phone.

Trying to decode how these kids act today is part of this mystery. Applying
70s, 80s, 90s or even ten years ago logic doesn't apply to their behavior.
She's being carried piggyback and we naturally assume the guy has drugged her and wants to rape her. However, if he confessed to it, I also would not be surprised.

Back to the phone. CS tells us Lauren last used her phone at SW. It dawned on me that if someone did take the phone, and the phone was used or answered, then the phone would tell a story of where Lauren went looking for her phone . IMO Lauren left the phone at SW, no way she didn't use it if she took it with her to JRs and Kilroys.

Then, MOO, someone had to bring the phone to Kilroys eventually. Again, this doesn't mean they disposed of Lauren. It could mean that she was all wound up about getting that phone, it could mean that if someone gave it to Jesse first, they might break up, or maybe she was talking/texting about breaking up. If JRs story is true to a point, then Lauren was almost frantic to find her phone.

IMO, Lauren left her phone at SW, HT and friends, possibly ZO, read her messages and that's maybe what the fight was about, he knew she was meeting CR. Then they may have already have passed the phone on to 10th and College.

I agree that picking at details, theories and assumptions can lead to breakthroughs.

I disagree that rape, date rape, or naughty intentions were invented in the 70's, 80's or 90's. It's more like a 1 million year old activity if not older. It's not something everyone does, but it is part of the range of behaviors within our species in such high percentages that about half of people actually view it as "normal". Even in the USA consider that it's only been about 120 years since it was perfectly legal to beat your wife with stick so long as it was no thicker than your thumb. It has only been 93 years since women won the right to vote! But even black men, who had been slaves could vote! So, women were 1 notch lower than a former slave. There are women alive today who were born in a time when women could not vote. Imagine what those days were like, and those days were not so long ago at all! It has only been about 40 years since divorce moved from a non-criminal basis. And wife beating / abuse back then was rarely considered criminal. So, my point is that while women only relatively recently "on paper" have the right to be human, it does not mean that 1 million years of evolution have suddenly adapted to it. There is no question that a lot of women commit violence, and in my view are more likely to get away with it. But when it comes to rape, which is a violent act (even the convoluted type where someone is purposefully made to be intoxicated or drugged so the other can get their rocks off) the numbers of males doing this to females (or other males even) is many times higher than females doing to males (or other females). To me this is something that has been with us as humans from the beginning. And it is nowhere near being gone:

Only Psychos Think Rape is OK...Right?

Societal Attitudes Supporting Rape

- A survey of 6,159 college students enrolled at 32 institutions in the U.S. found the following: (ref 4)

· 54% of the women surveyed had been the victims of some form of sexual abuse; more than one in four college-aged women had been the victim of rape or attempted rape;

· 57% of the assaults occurred on dates;

· 73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;

· 25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior;

· 42% of the victims told no one.

- In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:(ref 5)

· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;

· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;

· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

- In a survey of male college students:

· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).

· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)

· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

- Women with a history of rape or attempted rape during adolescence were almost twice as likely to experience a sexual assault during college, and were three times as likely to be victimized by a husband. (ref 9)

- Sexual assault is reported by 33% to 46% of women who are being physically assaulted by their husbands.(ref 10)

sources:

1. Dupre, A.R., Hampton, H.L., Morrison, H., and Meeks, G.R. Sexual Assault. Obstetrical and Gynecological Survey. 1993;48:640-648.

2. National Crime Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16

3. National Victim Center, and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16.

4. Koss M.P., Hidden rape: sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of students in higher education. In: Burgess A.W., ed Rape and Sexual Assault. New York, NY: Garland Publishing: 1988;2:3-25.

5. White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. "Young People's Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape." Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime." John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

6. Koss M.P., Dinero, T.E., Seibel, C.A. Stranger and acquaintance rape: Are there differences in the victim's experience? Psychology of Women Quarterly. 1988:12:1-24.

7. Malamuth N.M. Rape proclivity among males. J Soc Issues. 1981;37:138-157.

8. Rapaport, Karen R. and C. Dale Posey. Sexually Coercive College Males. Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden Crime, edited by Andrea Parrot. John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

9. Ellis, Atkeson, Calhoun, 1982: Gidycz, Coble, Latham, Layman, (1993); Guthrie, Notgrass, 1992.

10. Frieze IH, Browne A. Violence in marriage. In: Ohlin, L, Tonry, M, eds. Family Violence: Crime and Justice, A Review of Research. Chicago, Ill: University of Chicago Press; 1989:163-218.

11. American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Adolescence. Sexual assault and the adolescent. Pediatrics. 1994;94(5):761-765.

12. Heise, L.L. Reproductive freedom and violence against women: where are the intersections? J Law Med Ethics. 1993;21(2):206-216.

link: http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html
 
About the first question: I posted this theory a million threads ago when CS first made that statement, and I believe it more now:

I think one of the reasons she made that statement repeating that LS hadn't used her phone was because there were all kinds of drug rumors swirling around. If you remember, Tony Gatto claimed an anonymous witness who was supposedly someone 'close to the investigation' said Lauren was alone at Kilroys, talking about being high on cocaine and xanax, and then kicked out. Another rumor that was going around on Gatto's blog and IDS was that the last text on Lauren's phone was her trying to contact some drug dealer for an 8-ball.

So my guess was that CS knew that none of the above was true (Now we do too) and wanted to make it perfectly clear that Lauren was not calling anyone for drugs, or anything else.This is just my own speculation though

OTOH, it could have just been a straightforward message out of concern for safety to tell others that Lauren was separated from her phone and this put her in a dangerous situation. More dangerous than walking the streets alone, since she was already in trouble when she was out with 'friends' that night -- The media (and others) often imply that walking the streets alone at night is the biggest danger to women in Bloomington... when we don't know if Lauren was ever even out by herself that night at all.

...

Back to what is or isn't 'grasping at straws' -- I personally feel that looking at the information we actually have about the POI who have been named makes the most sense here, not dragging in totally imaginary theories about people who have never even been named as POI.

BUT, if we're going to go on rumors, I do have one interest. I'd like to know where they came from, and I think this is a totally doable thing. It's easy to figure out on PT, but what about the rumors on Gatto's blog that turned out to be wrong (Like Lauren being at the bar alone or being kicked out, or the totally unsubstantiated rumors about ZO, etc.). Same people? If I were Tony Gatto, I'd go back to those 'anonymous sources' and take another look at who they were and what information they wanted to get out to the public (and why!).

Could be interesting...

Good reasoning... I'd like to take that a step further.

While we have quite thoroughly analyzed nearly every possible drug angle(sure I'm taunting for yet another one), I will agree that it gives some people an impression there there was some desperation for drugs.(definitely fueled by MB and or his lawyer's statements) The reality would seem to be more like LS had been around partying and drugs for a long time, and there was by no means a shortage of drugs(those not realizing how available and pervasive are out of touch). I did not know LS, but feel like I'm getting to know her. I think she knew her way around drugs, her limits and partying to some extent. Meaning that she wasn't totally naive, strung out, or desperate.
This is one factor that causes me to lean in the direction of involuntary consumption. So what about patterns?

Did LS have any pattern of this behavior before?
*sub questions - how did her previous relationships work out or end?
was she known to "overdo" it when partying or was she considered a "lightweight"?
if there was any history at all of excessive partying, were there any known triggers to cause that behavior?
(My gut tells me no, this was a very unusual night for her in terms of falling down, etc... And that her involvement was generally more casual and low-key. I don't see her as being a drama queen or party animal.)

Did CR/MB/JR and other POI's have any involvement in similar circumstances (even if the person didn't die or go missing) before?
And one of my most want to know questions - Are there women out there who have interacted with the POI's who felt like something like this was happening to them or who had not previously reported unwanted sexual encounters with any of the POI's?
One thing that is known from violations (traffic, underage drinking, etc...)
is that some of the POI's have a demonstrated record of aggressive / break the rules type behavior.
 
Someone reminded me recently that the PI video mentioned a keg of beer at JR's the night Lauren went missing. JR (supposedly) told his friends he didn't have a car that night, though this has never been confirmed... Did someone else pick it up and return it? Was it delivered? Don't you have to fill out some kind of registration thingy when you buy a keg? Wonder if anyone ever looked into that.

I know, I know, this really is grasping at straws, but it could show who had a car that day (or the next) at 5 N, And who provided the alcohol... :innocent:

That would be very interesting! I missed that. You don't get a keg for 2 people. We really could benefit from a list of people at JR's that night.

And if you can carry a keg out, there must have been people carrying a lot of stuff out... maybe something with a body in it.
 
Ok, so you think "known facts/timeline" should end at the face plant? Sounds good to me. What about making it to JR's? I thought we came to the conclusion that she had to have made it to JR's because otherwise he couldn't have known about the injuries to her face. I'm just trying put a go back to the basics, back to the beginning and strip it down to the bare facts that we know and separate them from the rumors, and the unanswered questions.

So what about this then:
LS and DR go to JR's from SW to 5N.

DR leaves immediately after arriving

LS and CR go to Kilroys

LS and CR leave Kilroys and head to SW. LS leaves her shoes and cell phone at Kilroys.

LS and CR arrive at SW and go up to the 5th floor lobby but no further and don't enter anyone's apartment.

Then the altercation between CR and ZO.

Then LS's out of the elevator fall.

LS and CR leave SW and head back to 5N via the alley.

LS's falls in the alley and loses her key card and coin purse deali-o,

Then they exit the alley

They enter LS's girlfriends building, knock on the girls door getting no answer they come right back out.

They sit on the front stoop of this building.

Next we have LS's slump & bump on the stairs.

Then LS's non attempt to avoid the face plant to the concrete.

? *Per MB LS and CR arrive at CR's. CR goes to bed. MB takes LS to JR's.

*LS arrives at JR's. JR notices that her eyes are beginning to blacken and asks her how she did that to her face and LS says she doesn't know.

DR receives a phone call at 4:15 a.m from JR's phone.

Another call is made from JR's phone to an unknown person.

12-ish hours pass and JW meets up with HT to get her apt key to check on LS. He discovers she's not there and the process is started.

Our questions are?
Did anyone follow them from the altercation?
Why did the altercation really happen?
If it was because CR was being aggressive why did the others let her leave with him/why did LS go willing with him when she was already at her building?
Who else was at JR's?
Who were there when ZO punched CR?
Who was at ZO's house that night?
Did the bar manager really see LS at the time she stated?
Who did she see carry LS away?
If she didn't see this, why would she lie?
Is CR's memory really compromised?
If not, why would he lie?
If the POI's are lying and covering for each other, what would compel them to do that?
Have all the cars available to all the players and all their guests been searched?
Why did DR leave JR's right away?
Why did someone call DR at exactly 4:15. Who else did CR, JR, MB call after the face plant, anyone? If so, why?
What was the nature of the confrontation between JW, his father and JR in the days immediately after LS disappeared?
Did any of the 5N boys buy drugs that night, from who? Was LS present during the buy?
Are there any other cameras that LS would've been on if she had left JR's as he said but headed somewhere besides SW? If so have they been looked at?
If there aren't cameras that would've recorded LS going a different path, where could she have been heading? How far in each direction available to her would she go before being recorded? Did LE check all those cameras?
Would any cameras have recorded any of the 5N boys or their guests leave in a vehicle after the faceplant? If so, where those cameras checked?
Is there a way out of 5N in a vehicle without being recorded?

That is all I can think of right now. Are any of these already answered or invalid? What questions have I missed?

Actually, I sit here and go over this and over this, go back to the beginning and try to take all the rumor away and try to find something and all I can ever come to in the end is that there is really only one question that matters at all. Did LS walk out of JR's at 4:15 heading either home or else where or not? There really is only that. She did or she didn't. If she did, it's open for speculation and debate on what happened next. If she didn't then we're back to CR, MB and JR and any guests as the main focus. JR would only have one reason to lie and say she walked away if she didn't and that would be to cover up something or cover for someone. So, if he's lying then where is she. How did he -or they - move her, has LE looked at video in the days after she disappeared? If any of the 5N boys knew they couldn't move her in their car without being recorded, what are the possibilities for them to dispose of her otherwise? Of those possibilities, which ones could they pull off without being recorded?

:banghead: This is making me crazy. I want to knooooowwww. It all feels just right there...just right outside reach.

There are quite a few assumptions that CR/MB and JR are telling the truth.
Because some facts are laced into their stories, does not make the stories themselves truth. They are still lies.

So, because JR is the only POI (that we know of) to acknowledge Lauren's injuries... We do not know if she was ever at JR's. If this is based purely on MB's and JR's word, it certainly can not be taken as fact. Because JR said he saw LS's injuries, does not mean that he in fact saw them. He could have been told about the faceplant video prior to making that statement. He could have been told about her injury by someone else. He could have saw the injury at CR/MB's but LS may never have made it to JR's. He could have seen the injury outside or in a vehicle or somewhere else. Someone may have taken a photo on their phone and showed him.... etc..

The faceplant video is the last hard fact of her whereabouts. If there is a witness other than the POI's that can back up that she was indeed at CR/MB's and/or JR's after faceplant, then they should speak up.

From the very beginning I see people operating on the assumption that all POI's are 100% telling the truth. From what we know, that just can't be.

LE has Lauren's phone. So they would have finger prints, and the record of everything happening on that phone that night, anything deleted, etc... A mobile phone today is a computer. And there would be phone company records of texts and calls. With respect to her being purposefully separated from her phone, it's a plausible theory, but as of yet, no fact to support it. LE should know by now if that theory has legs.

Still we are all waiting for a good story about why ZO hit CR. This was all on video. CR and ZO exchanged words but we do not know all of the words or what was driving the conflict. Public statements that came out initially made it SEEM like ZO was somehow protecting SW (how strange that was then and now absurd it is today) from the evil CR. If ZO had any concern for LS at all, it was not demonstrated on the video. She is just slipping down, having trouble standing while ZO and crew are not rushing to her aid. Further they just let her stumble out the door with CR. So I don't think the conflict was about LS. It is about time we know what the conflict was really about and that ZO make statements about it.

Your sequence seems a bit out of order... I've re-arranged the way I understand it:

LS is with people(WHO?) at SW who are watching BB (Person Q? is there) around 12:00 midnight (witnesses)

LS and DR go to JR's from SW to 5N (leaving at approx 12:15am and arriving at approx 12:30am). (Video and statements)

LS last known use of cell phone per CS is at 12:30am (likely she told someone she made it to JR's?)

DR leaves immediately after arriving at approx 12:30am (video and statements)

LS and CR go to Kilroys(Together is the assumption, there have been no comments about either's condition on the way to Kilroy's) (video, statements and possible witnesses)

(unverified rumor - LS is said to have boasted about taking Xanax and cocaine, while at Kilroy's)

LS and CR leave Kilroys and head to SW. (video, and possible witnesses)

LS leaves her shoes and cell phone at Kilroys. (This is the assumption, From videos it could be verified that she walked to Kilroy's with shoes and phone in hand or bulging from where she kept it, and then both missing on the return videos, this is something LE knows but we do not know.) (TIME approx 1:30am?)

LS and CR arrive at SW and go up to the 5th floor lobby but no further and don't enter anyone's apartment.(not sure if this detail is correct, but it was all on video) (TIME approx 1:45am?)

Then the altercation between CR and ZO. (Video, very little public statements from those who were there)

Then LS's out of the elevator fall. (Video, and note that ZO and crew do NOT help her)

LS and CR leave SW and head to 10th and College via the Alley (Video and possible witnesses) (TIME approx 2:00am?)

They knock on LS's girlfriends door (doors are external at 10th and College), getting no answer (They or just LS?) sit on the concrete front stoop(or stairs?) of this building. (Witnesses and possibly some video) (TIME approx 2:10am?)

Next we have LS's slump & bump on the stoop/stairs falling over sideways from a sitting position (which indicates that she is losing consciousness, not just motor control). (Witnesses) (TIME approx 2:20am?)

Then CR carries LS on his back (because she cannot walk, not because she enjoys piggy back rides) (Witnesses and possible video) (TIME approx 2:30am??)

Then at some point CR and LS start up the Alley from 10th and College towards 5N. (Video) (TIME approx 2:45am?)

LS's unblocked faceplant fall upon exit from the alley and loses her keys(not keycard or ID) and coin purse,(TIME 2:50am)

A person finds LS's keys and coin purse type wallet and places them on ledge and sees/hears nothing else (TIME approx 2:55am)

A second person (roommate of the one finding Keys and Wallet) sees Keys and Wallet on ledge (TIME approx 3:00am)

MB reports that CR and LS show up at CR/MB's apt at approx 3:00am CR vomits needs to be put to bed, says LS assists. Also says LS does not want to stay wants to keep partying. (In light of LS's condition just a few minutes prior and unblocked faceplant, these statements attributed to MB make no sense, MB does not say anything about injuries and makes it seem that CR is bad off and LS is in good shape, totally the opposite of what was observed by witnesses and on video just minutes before)

MB calls JR about LS(even though they live next door in the same building) (TIME 3:30am)

It is said by MB and JR that somehow LS goes to JR's (I've seen many conflicting statements about how LS got from CR/MB's to JR's, who was there, nor have seen no credible proof that she actually made it to JR's. The assumption has been that MB and JR are telling the truth but their statements conflict known facts and each other) (TIME approx 3:35am)

JR says he observes that LS is, to paraphrase "in bad shape". JR claims to notice LS's injuries and observes details about her toxication level, her behavior and supposedly that she only has her keycard and FAKE ID. (TIME approx 3:35 to 4:15am)

(LE disputed - Bartender witness claims to have seen LS being carried over someone's back at 3:38am just north of 10th and College)

JR says that LS makes 2 calls from his phone but that she mistakes an ipod for a phone. (TIME approx 4:15am)
Call # 1 is to DR - no answer
Call # 2 is to Person Q?

JR claims that LS passes his sobriety / walk test and allows LS to leave ALONE, BAREFOOT, PHONELESS and says he sees her walk down 11th towards N. College. He says he sees this from his little 2 foot balcony. (TIME approx 4:20 to 4:30am)
 
Btown's post was enlightening, so yes, I agree. Re: taken in a car later: I've never been able to discern if dogs did or did not get a "hit" on the dumpster behind 5N. If they did, and yet no body was discovered in the landfill (assuming the search was conducted in a comprehensive manner), I wonder if LS could have been left behind the fence around the dumpster and then moved before sunrise. I remember once checking when sunrise was on June 3 but don't remember what I found.

I just keep going back to how tiny she was. I'm afraid she could have been easily concealed/moved, which is disheartening in terms of determining where she might be. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think that the real hope for this case involves somebody getting a conscience.

Agree, so far the wall of silence is serving them well. But there are those little details that LE has and we don't, forensic analysis, sifting data, etc... may eventually catch up to those responsible. If someone came forward would make it easier. I'm one to think that people who make it harder to solve something like this should be treated with stiffer punishment than those who cooperate early on.
 
Agree, so far the wall of silence is serving them well. But there are those little details that LE has and we don't, forensic analysis, sifting data, etc... may eventually catch up to those responsible. If someone came forward would make it easier. I'm one to think that people who make it harder to solve something like this should be treated with stiffer punishment than those who cooperate early on.

Thank you! I'm not giving up, but I do, as we all must, get frustrated as we rehash what we seemingly know. I agree about those who aren't cooperating. I really hope one of the POIs slips up and says something incriminating to someone who cares. That might be all it takes ...
 
I agree that picking at details, theories and assumptions can lead to breakthroughs.

I disagree that rape, date rape, or naughty intentions were invented in the 70's, 80's or 90's. It's more like a 1 million year old activity if not older. It's not something everyone does, but it is part of the range of behaviors within our species in such high percentages that about half of people actually view it as "normal". Even in the USA consider that it's only been about 120 years since it was perfectly legal to beat your wife with stick so long as it was no thicker than your thumb. It has only been 93 years since women won the right to vote! But even black men, who had been slaves could vote! So, women were 1 notch lower than a former slave. There are women alive today who were born in a time when women could not vote. Imagine what those days were like, and those days were not so long ago at all! It has only been about 40 years since divorce moved from a non-criminal basis. And wife beating / abuse back then was rarely considered criminal. So, my point is that while women only relatively recently "on paper" have the right to be human, it does not mean that 1 million years of evolution have suddenly adapted to it. There is no question that a lot of women commit violence, and in my view are more likely to get away with it. But when it comes to rape, which is a violent act (even the convoluted type where someone is purposefully made to be intoxicated or drugged so the other can get their rocks off) the numbers of males doing this to females (or other males even) is many times higher than females doing to males (or other females). To me this is something that has been with us as humans from the beginning. And it is nowhere near being gone:

Only Psychos Think Rape is OK...Right?

Societal Attitudes Supporting Rape

- A survey of 6,159 college students enrolled at 32 institutions in the U.S. found the following: (ref 4)

· 54% of the women surveyed had been the victims of some form of sexual abuse; more than one in four college-aged women had been the victim of rape or attempted rape;

· 57% of the assaults occurred on dates;

· 73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;

· 25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior;

· 42% of the victims told no one.

- In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:(ref 5)

· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;

· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;

· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

- In a survey of male college students:

· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).

· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)

· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.

· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.

- Women with a history of rape or attempted rape during adolescence were almost twice as likely to experience a sexual assault during college, and were three times as likely to be victimized by a husband. (ref 9)

- Sexual assault is reported by 33% to 46% of women who are being physically assaulted by their husbands.(ref 10)

sources:

1. Dupre, A.R., Hampton, H.L., Morrison, H., and Meeks, G.R. Sexual Assault. Obstetrical and Gynecological Survey. 1993;48:640-648.

2. National Crime Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16

3. National Victim Center, and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center. Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. Arlington, VA; 1992:1-16.

4. Koss M.P., Hidden rape: sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of students in higher education. In: Burgess A.W., ed Rape and Sexual Assault. New York, NY: Garland Publishing: 1988;2:3-25.

5. White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey. "Young People's Attitudes Toward Acquaintance Rape." Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden crime." John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

6. Koss M.P., Dinero, T.E., Seibel, C.A. Stranger and acquaintance rape: Are there differences in the victim's experience? Psychology of Women Quarterly. 1988:12:1-24.

7. Malamuth N.M. Rape proclivity among males. J Soc Issues. 1981;37:138-157.

8. Rapaport, Karen R. and C. Dale Posey. Sexually Coercive College Males. Acquaintance Rape: The Hidden Crime, edited by Andrea Parrot. John Wiley and Sons, 1991.

9. Ellis, Atkeson, Calhoun, 1982: Gidycz, Coble, Latham, Layman, (1993); Guthrie, Notgrass, 1992.

10. Frieze IH, Browne A. Violence in marriage. In: Ohlin, L, Tonry, M, eds. Family Violence: Crime and Justice, A Review of Research. Chicago, Ill: University of Chicago Press; 1989:163-218.

11. American Academy of Pediatrics, Committee on Adolescence. Sexual assault and the adolescent. Pediatrics. 1994;94(5):761-765.

12. Heise, L.L. Reproductive freedom and violence against women: where are the intersections? J Law Med Ethics. 1993;21(2):206-216.

link: http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

Being a feminist I am fully aware of the history of rape, having participated in the first Take Back The Night. Weirdly, once women fully took back the night, i.e. the behavior of the young women here, no fear of being out at all hours, they at once become free and also potential victims, every one of them who ventures away from their safe spot, i.e. again, the people they are out with. I agree with you, VV, at the same time disagree with you.
If the group of POIs were arrested today and confessed, to me that would be the "best" outcome, because Lauren would not have been hurt by a deviant stranger. But as a citizen of this town, even if the outcome is grisly and a terrible story to live with, IF it is someone other than the POIs, this person needs to be found.
I think it's safe to assume these kids were all high. Why would their stories be exactly the same? As I have said before, if their stories were exactly the same, then I would be more inclined to think they were lying, not the other way around.
Another thing different in this culture today is the importance of their "futures". Obviously, their parents won't even stand for a drug charge against their precious little angels and won't let them talk for fear of them not being able to become doctors, lawyers, judges, president. They have all been advised to keep totally quiet. Pointing the finger at someone at the edge of their group as possibly backtracking and abducting Lauren might lead to questions about how and why they knew this person. My bet is that these parents won't even let these kids tell THEM what they know, that's how tight they want to keep it.
If the dogs had signalled a death at the dumpster next to 5N, the boys could be brought in and held for questioning for 24 hours. This was not done.
My guess is that they have some sort of proof that Lauren left JRs. Which
doesn't necessarily clear the POIs, because anyone could have followed her and might have.
I think it was Abbey who wondered if any of the people involved had trouble with the law for any kind of sexual battery. Yes. The out of town guest who tweeted from Runcible Spoon about corned beef. His father owns an apt. bldg
in (Michigan?) and one of his friends, DB's friend, a football player, was investigated for attacking a female in that building. Was he with DB at 5N?
All of you people who don't live in Bloomington, I hope you understand my
very real anxiety that there is a killer on the loose here. If this is true, we owe it to Lauren and to her parents and all the people who live here to investigate the possibility that her friends didn't kill her. If they did, I hope they trip up and spend the rest of their lives in prison for hurting Lauren and terrorizing her family and this whole town.
And in a spirit of good will and not spite, I just want to say that the idea of a stranger/semi-stranger abduction is not the piddling .001 per cent that is being accepted here. If she walked out that door, the percentage of a stranger abduction totally eclipses the POIs.
 
Sorry, I thought we were both talking about the same source -- The account given by the PI's.

Who described it as a "piggy back ride"? Do you have a link? TIA

It was on WS, a link, I thought it was one of the PIs. Maybe I should ask : If a link has been posted and already conversed about on the threads, every time we bring it up, do we have to site the link?
Or just if someone calls you out?
 
Please go back to the Lo-Hud link posted by Abbey again. Read the article and watch the video again. The face down fall was at 10th and College apts. The last camera was north of 10th and College Village Apts. That's the other side of the block. In print Lauren is being tugged, pulled and dragged by Corey towards 5 N. Logic says that is what is on the last cam. Please go back and read and watch so we can all be on the same page. And, I think the last building I can place Lauren in is 10th and College Village. And, I think it is very likely she was put in a car and taken away and did not die at 5 N.
 
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