IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

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I agree in the sense that what you're saying makes sense as far as jealous boyfriends are concerned. However, I still think there should be a general link clueing JW in on the events unless he has acted in this manner before. I just think for him to be stalking and lurking for the length of time until she supposedly walked home is excessive unless he had some kind of history of excessively jealous behavior, which hasn't been reported (although, admittedly, I suppose he it could have happened and simply has not been reported).

I agree that I'd think there would likely be some evidence of jealous and/or possessive behavior in the past but I don't think we'd know about it unless an official source would want to share that (and that is simply an area that really hasn't been discussed one way or the other in the normal outlets). Not hearing about it simply means the question of its existence is unanswered IMHO, not that it doesn't exist.

As for the length of time he would've had to have been stalking and lurking that night, it doesn't have to be a long length of time. The area where he might expect to find her is fairly limited, especially if he had suspicions that something was going on, so it could all be a matter of timing for him to have seen her at some point whether that means he started lurking in the area shortly after the game, after bars closed, or whatever it could've been. He could've been on his way to Smallwood to knock on her apt door for example and saw her and CR leave after the altercation.

Or, after no contact with her and no returned calls/texts, he could've been on his way to confront CR at his apt to see if LS was there with him and witnessed her leaving JR's. No hours upon hours or searching and spying necessary.

None of this is to say that scenarios like these are the most likely scenario of what happened, just that it can't be discounted without more info that answers several questions about their relationship and his alibi for the night.

The media (and Spierers for that matter) quickly focused on 5N. Perhaps for good reason... perhaps solely for the obvious timing issues.... or perhaps because LE didn't share some potentially exculpatory evidence. Since LE has been so tight lipped in this case not hearing about these other avenues of possibility to me simply mean they are unanswered questions. Not that it means they are avenues that are settled and there's nothing to discuss.

We're discussing whether or not JW should be excluded or lowered down the list of of potential suspects based on the expectation that someone would've needed to inform him of the happenings of the evening versus the likelihood he'd venture into the night on his own with a hunch.... And the truth is we can't even say for certain he didn't get a phone call, text, email, or late night visitor. LE almost certainly wouldn't have shared it if he did. Let alone, the possibility they don't know themselves for certain.
 
I have always found that to be extremely odd as well. You would think that CR & MB would want that clarified asap.

I'd assume by the time the media had gotten to them that LE and eventually lawyers would've already told them to not speak about the case.
 
The only posts on his blog that I can find with Twitter/ facebook photos are about ZO/AB and friends (and the one about HT)-- I can't find anything about KT from Gatto. Am I missing it? If you remember where you saw/read this, could you link me up? (Thanks!)

The neighbors at 5 N may not be part of Lauren's social group, but what about the POI?

I don't know if you're missing it. Where's his blog? That's where I think I saw it. The WordPress version I see doesn't have photos. Maybe I followed a link to their Twitter accounts and saw the pics there. There was one or two guys wearing stylish red track suits. One wore a cap, I think.

I'd probably make a poor witness.
 
I should have clarified - I meant the specifics on what was said and why, although I think the why is probably answered in part by what you said (CR acting aggressively). I'm just curious whether the altercation was solely about this one encounter & CR's antics during it, or whether ZO/anyone in ZO's group had a history with CR that could have been at play too. I would also be interested in whether ZO or anyone in that group actually knew LS, or really, if they knew any of the other major players. I believe it was rumored that ZO & co. were JW's friends but I thought this turned out to be false, but I'm not sure.

BBM

Sammi,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/

But Rossman's friend, Zoe Camp, told the paper, "He knows that he got in a fight with some of Jesse (Wolff's) friends in Smallwood."

The above quote from Zoe Camp (article linked above) is possibly where the idea that ZO & co. were friends with JW came from. Does anyone have a link stating that ZO & co. were not friends with or associates of JW?

I don't know how reliable ZC is as a source. It is hard to tell via (unreliable) media how well ZC actually knows the different players in this case. I would like to know whether she had personal knowledge that JW & Zo were friends, or whether she was simply repeating a rumor.
 
There seems to be a consensus from the witnesses though -- there's only one story: That Corey was acting aggressively and inappropriately and had attitude when they called him on it -- and you're right, Corey can't have a story because of his 'memory loss'.

I'm guessing they had a search warrant for the home, car and cell, so did he really 'allow' them to search or did he have a choice?


Here's the deal--Lauren was of age, and if she was holding hands, he had his arm around her, if they were kissing, that's her business. If ZO thought CR was taking advantage of Lauren, then he should have, even after punching
CR, made sure her roomies got her inside her apt.

The AEPis treat women abhorrently. IMO, this was a turf war over Lauren
being with a non-AEPi. Being ejected from the safety of her apt. was the real beginning of her end. HT and her "This time Lauren went to far." statement,
what a bunch of hooey, betcha HT and her gang knew Lauren was headed back with CR and she was in the thick of the altercation.

When you think about it, this was about a woman being hounded to death because she went out with someone out of her clique. No one would help her, even her trusted friends. Whatever happened in the end, and it still could have been random IMO, she was delivered to that end by her friends.
Whether or not they can be prosecuted for their lethal disloyalty, who knows?
But there it is, and I hope it haunts them, when they have kids, I hope they worry themselves sick every time their kids go out, that some disloyal friend will just let them fend for themselves if they get into trouble, their friends will
push them into the night helpless and barefoot. IMO this is what HT did.

Really, I would never wish that on someone's kids, but also really, since this has happened there isn't a single time when my son is away from me I don't worry for him, I am forever changed by this. If I also had the compounded guilt of knowing something and not telling LE, it would kill me.
 
I agree that I'd think there would likely be some evidence of jealous and/or possessive behavior in the past but I don't think we'd know about it unless an official source would want to share that (and that is simply an area that really hasn't been discussed one way or the other in the normal outlets). Not hearing about it simply means the question of its existence is unanswered IMHO, not that it doesn't exist.

As for the length of time he would've had to have been stalking and lurking that night, it doesn't have to be a long length of time. The area where he might expect to find her is fairly limited, especially if he had suspicions that something was going on, so it could all be a matter of timing for him to have seen her at some point whether that means he started lurking in the area shortly after the game, after bars closed, or whatever it could've been. He could've been on his way to Smallwood to knock on her apt door for example and saw her and CR leave after the altercation.

Or, after no contact with her and no returned calls/texts, he could've been on his way to confront CR at his apt to see if LS was there with him and witnessed her leaving JR's. No hours upon hours or searching and spying necessary.

None of this is to say that scenarios like these are the most likely scenario of what happened, just that it can't be discounted without more info that answers several questions about their relationship and his alibi for the night.

The media (and Spierers for that matter) quickly focused on 5N. Perhaps for good reason... perhaps solely for the obvious timing issues.... or perhaps because LE didn't share some potentially exculpatory evidence. Since LE has been so tight lipped in this case not hearing about these other avenues of possibility to me simply mean they are unanswered questions. Not that it means they are avenues that are settled and there's nothing to discuss.

We're discussing whether or not JW should be excluded or lowered down the list of of potential suspects based on the expectation that someone would've needed to inform him of the happenings of the evening versus the likelihood he'd venture into the night on his own with a hunch.... And the truth is we can't even say for certain he didn't get a phone call, text, email, or late night visitor. LE almost certainly wouldn't have shared it if he did. Let alone, the possibility they don't know themselves for certain.

well, I don't think JW needs to have a pattern of such behavior. Peer pressure would be enough, didn't someone set the tone by punching CR?
Also, would anyone have behaved as aggressively if there was one sober
person among them? Someone to say, "hey wait a minute, Lauren is our friend, if she wants to break up with Jesse, who cares?" This was a crazy train jumping the rails with no one steering it, and then everyone jumps off
except Lauren. Except Lauren, who tried to get off the train but they wouldn't let her.
 
well, I don't think JW needs to have a pattern of such behavior. Peer pressure would be enough, didn't someone set the tone by punching CR?

agreed. once someone punched cr you have to assume jw was made aware of the situation (via phone, text, social media, etc).
 
agreed. once someone punched cr you have to assume jw was made aware of the situation (via phone, text, social media, etc).

For that matter JW could've called/contacted them and had them on the lookout for LS....
 
BBM

Sammi,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/



The above quote from Zoe Camp (article linked above) is possibly where the idea that ZO & co. were friends with JW came from. Does anyone have a link stating that ZO & co. were not friends with or associates of JW?

I don't know how reliable ZC is as a source. It is hard to tell via (unreliable) media how well ZC actually knows the different players in this case. I would like to know whether she had personal knowledge that JW & Zo were friends, or whether she was simply repeating a rumor.


Thanks for pointing that out. I tried looking up links, but I couldn't find anything reliable. PT boards alluded to them not being close, but obviously, those aren't reliable.

I guess my thing is: how close were ZO & co. to JW (if at all)? Did they have his number? Did they know JW's girlfriend was LS (and would be able to recognize her)? Were these friends or just people who sometimes hung around in the same social groups (if that even)? I know ZC is quoted as saying they were JW's friends, but ZC is CR's friend:

Rossman's lawyer later would claim that he lost memory of that night from the punch. But Rossman's friend, Zoe Camp, told the paper, "He knows that he got in a fight with some of Jesse (Wolff's) friends in Smallwood."

ZC is also stating what CR told her, as in he, CR, knew he got into a fight with some of JW's friends. He is also a source of bias.


It just gets confusing for me when I start thinking about who knew who from what and for how long.
 
Thanks for pointing that out. I tried looking up links, but I couldn't find anything reliable. PT boards alluded to them not being close, but obviously, those aren't reliable.

I guess my thing is: how close were ZO & co. to JW (if at all)? Did they have his number? Did they know JW's girlfriend was LS (and would be able to recognize her)? Were these friends or just people who sometimes hung around in the same social groups (if that even)? I know ZC is quoted as saying they were JW's friends, but ZC is CR's friend:



ZC is also stating what CR told her, as in he, CR, knew he got into a fight with some of JW's friends. He is also a source of bias.


It just gets confusing for me when I start thinking about who knew who from what and for how long.

We are taking the reporter's word for it that ZC is "friends" with CR, and I know just how many different definitions of "friends" there are among college kids (acquaintance, love interest, party friend, close longtime friends, etc..)

But you're right, I agree. It sounds like ZC's source is CR. So I feel comfortable inferring that they were friends on some level. It also appears CR felt friendly enough with ZC to go to her apartment (for what reason we don't know..). As Jacobite pointed out a few pages back, CR had just refused help from a stranger witness. Was he simply uncomfortable accepting help from a stranger, and was hoping ZC could be of help instead? Or was there another reason he stopped by (drugs? needed the restroom? hoping she would give them a ride in her car?).

For some reason I had always (stupidly) assumed that because ZC was female, perhaps CR was bringing Lauren to her apartment because ZC and LS were friends. Now I wonder if ZC even knew Lauren at all. IIRC, LS and CR only became friendly fairly recently (around the time of the Indy 500 IIRC), so ZC being friends with CR does not necessarily mean she knew Lauren at all.

I don't think ZC has any involvement with Lauren's demise. But I am certainly curious about what was going through CR's head during this trek around Bloomington with a struggling LS. His stop at ZC's apartment could be for any number of mundane reasons, but it does peak my interest.

[/END RAMBLING POST]
 
We are taking the reporter's word for it that ZC is "friends" with CR, and I know just how many different definitions of "friends" there are among college kids (acquaintance, love interest, party friend, close longtime friends, etc..)

But you're right, I agree. It sounds like ZC's source is CR. So I feel comfortable inferring that they were friends on some level. It also appears CR felt friendly enough with ZC to go to her apartment (for what reason we don't know..). As Jacobite pointed out a few pages back, CR had just refused help from a stranger witness. Was he simply uncomfortable accepting help from a stranger, and was hoping ZC could be of help instead? Or was there another reason he stopped by (drugs? needed the restroom? hoping she would give them a ride in her car?).

For some reason I had always (stupidly) assumed that because ZC was female, perhaps CR was bringing Lauren to her apartment because ZC and LS were friends. Now I wonder if ZC even knew Lauren at all. IIRC, LS and CR only became friendly fairly recently (around the time of the Indy 500 IIRC), so ZC being friends with CR does not necessarily mean she knew Lauren at all.

I don't think ZC has any involvement with Lauren's demise. But I am certainly curious about what was going through CR's head during this trek around Bloomington with a struggling LS. His stop at ZC's apartment could be for any number of mundane reasons, but it does peak my interest.

[/END RAMBLING POST]

It could simply be that because he had just been punched and she was on her last leg, he stopped for help from a trusted friend.

Also, it makes sense that he would want to get inside a friend's apt or his own just another block away. What can the stranger provide that he can't? He had already displayed possessiveness of her, so it's understandable that he turned down stranger help.
 
Here's the deal--Lauren was of age, and if she was holding hands, he had his arm around her, if they were kissing, that's her business. If ZO thought CR was taking advantage of Lauren, then he should have, even after punching
CR, made sure her roomies got her inside her apt.

The AEPis treat women abhorrently. IMO, this was a turf war over Lauren
being with a non-AEPi. Being ejected from the safety of her apt. was the real beginning of her end. HT and her "This time Lauren went to far." statement,
what a bunch of hooey, betcha HT and her gang knew Lauren was headed back with CR and she was in the thick of the altercation.

When you think about it, this was about a woman being hounded to death because she went out with someone out of her clique. No one would help her, even her trusted friends. Whatever happened in the end, and it still could have been random IMO, she was delivered to that end by her friends.
Whether or not they can be prosecuted for their lethal disloyalty, who knows?
But there it is, and I hope it haunts them, when they have kids, I hope they worry themselves sick every time their kids go out, that some disloyal friend will just let them fend for themselves if they get into trouble, their friends will
push them into the night helpless and barefoot. IMO this is what HT did.

Really, I would never wish that on someone's kids, but also really, since this has happened there isn't a single time when my son is away from me I don't worry for him, I am forever changed by this. If I also had the compounded guilt of knowing something and not telling LE, it would kill me.

Huh, I thought CR and JR were the ones who "pushed Lauren into the night helpless and barefoot..."

I'm having trouble following you, because my understanding of all the reports about this case is that: No one has ever said that CR and LS were holding hands or kissing, etc. He was dragging around an intoxicated, incapacitated girl. No one has claimed that the fight at Smallwood had anything to do with anyone being mad Lauren "went outside her clique" or a frat boy turf war. The witnesses and PIs said ZO and friends were concerned about Lauren's condition and Corey's behavior towards her. And, a few minutes later, the bar manager witness stopped Corey to ask if Lauren was okay too, for the same reason. She wasn't "ejected from her apartment" by her girlfriends. Corey carried Lauren out of Smallwood.

Lauren was definitely let down and betrayed by people she trusted that night, I agree with you there. But as far as I can tell, your theory about Lauren's female friends being involved, stealing her phone, locking her out of her apartment, ratting her out to JR, etc. isn't based on anything that has been reported...
 
I'd have to agree with you Abby. And frankly, the information about just how out of it she was is sketchy as well. We have Gatto's reports which have grown questionable over time, and the PI's account that seems to use Gatto's bar witness. But there seems to be a problem with the timing of the bar witness which brings up questions about all of that information. Other info about acting inappropriately towards her at Kilroy's is questionable sources at best. Wasn't this mainly Gatto sources?

Then we have the report of her staggering out of the elevator which even that isn't exactly confirmed as absolute fact nor are we able to see it for ourselves to rate the level of embellishment that could or could not be there.

There's just so little actual information available, and even less where we get to see/hear a back and forth with a witness, that it's hard not to simply start choosing to believe what we want to believe to simplify the case.

EDIT: And it goes without saying that the ones best in a position to tell of her condition at 4AM also happens to be PsOI who benefit from painting a picture of her being in the best shape possible.
 
I'd have to agree with you Abby. And frankly, the information about just how out of it she was is sketchy as well. We have Gatto's reports which have grown questionable over time, and the PI's account that seems to use Gatto's bar witness. But there seems to be a problem with the timing of the bar witness which brings up questions about all of that information. Other info about acting inappropriately towards her at Kilroy's is questionable sources at best. Wasn't this mainly Gatto sources?

Then we have the report of her staggering out of the elevator which even that isn't exactly confirmed as absolute fact nor are we able to see it for ourselves to rate the level of embellishment that could or could not be there.

There's just so little actual information available, and even less where we get to see/hear a back and forth with a witness, that it's hard not to simply start choosing to believe what we want to believe to simplify the case.

EDIT: And it goes without saying that the ones best in a position to tell of her condition at 4AM also happens to be PsOI who benefit from painting a picture of her being in the best shape possible.

I don't think her state is as open to interpretation as you describe. From the very beginning, LE stated at the pressers that CR and Lauren are seen on security "making their way" through the alley.

She was shoeless, w/o her phone, and dropped her belongings.

There are more witnesses than the bar manager. The lawsuit refers to witnesses at Sports and at Smallwood. They describe her state as quite unstable.

The PIs descriptions which even include a role play of how CR carried her--are as though they have viewed video, not retelling from sketchy witness accounts.

And then there is MB who back pedaled on her wanting to party to her being very drunk and out of it as compared to earlier in the night.
 
That's right but the question is not whether she was intoxicated, it's whether she was incapacitated and incoherent.
 
... I don't think ZC has any involvement with Lauren's demise. But I am certainly curious about what was going through CR's head during this trek around Bloomington with a struggling LS. His stop at ZC's apartment could be for any number of mundane reasons, but it does peak my interest.

[/END RAMBLING POST]

Respectfully snipped by me.

While we can now see that LS was in worse shape than CR, your post reminds me: CR had his own issues (having been hit by ZO). I'm not defending him in any way ... he made his own choices, further compromising LS and refusing help that was offered.

But it makes me think. When my kids were young, my son gave me daughter a piggy back ride while I was doing computer work. I'd just given her Benadryl for an allergy, and she hence lost her balance and fell off his back. The end result: a broken arm.

Unless we have all of their moments recorded, we don't know what else could have transpired along the way as the going got rougher. It's possible LS slipped off his back, for instance, and hit her head one more time ... or that he couldn't carry her and left her somewhere.
 
I don't think her state is as open to interpretation as you describe. From the very beginning, LE stated at the pressers that CR and Lauren are seen on security "making their way" through the alley.

She was shoeless, w/o her phone, and dropped her belongings.

There are more witnesses than the bar manager. The lawsuit refers to witnesses at Sports and at Smallwood. They describe her state as quite unstable.

The PIs descriptions which even include a role play of how CR carried her--are as though they have viewed video, not retelling from sketchy witness accounts.

And then there is MB who back pedaled on her wanting to party to her being very drunk and out of it as compared to earlier in the night.

I agree.

From the lawsuit docs:

22. ... Spierer was observed by multiple individuals in a distressed, incoherent, and nonresponsive state near the elevator on the fifth floor of the Smallwood Plaza with Rossman only.

I doubt that this would be claimed unless they could produce these witnesses. The reports of the video surveillance at Smallwood seem to confirm this as well.

The lawsuit docs go on to describe Corey carrying Lauren in this state, and then say that MB found Lauren slurring her speech and way more intoxicated than earlier in the evening, and that both he and JR were concerned about her well being.
 
Just thinking of 5N visit/ rounding corner statement/scenario. ..vs alternate scenarios.... If LS was left in alley on way to 5N..either by falling, passing out, stumbling....if this is what happened...why would any of the 5N POIs put her at 5N and then corner rounding? Unless of course they were afraid of illegal consumption activities. I mean, I keep thinking of why they would say she was back at 5N if she wasnt. If she were left in alley..it would be easier just to say she was with me (CR) on way home..but dont remember more...why would MB and JR put her at 5N if she really wasnt there. Frustrated..spinning my wheels. Did someone in other apts ir houses snatch her? run over her? Just confused and dismayed.
 
Just thinking of 5N visit/ rounding corner statement/scenario. ..vs alternate scenarios.... If LS was left in alley on way to 5N..either by falling, passing out, stumbling....if this is what happened...why would any of the 5N POIs put her at 5N and then corner rounding? Unless of course they were afraid of illegal consumption activities. I mean, I keep thinking of why they would say she was back at 5N if she wasnt. If she were left in alley..it would be easier just to say she was with me (CR) on way home..but dont remember more...why would MB and JR put her at 5N if she really wasnt there. Frustrated..spinning my wheels. Did someone in other apts ir houses snatch her? run over her? Just confused and dismayed.

IDK ... and I'm not sure the following makes much sense, TBH. But say CR left LS in the alley for whatever reason and then continued on his way. ZO and gang would have known that CR was alone with her and possibly acting inappropriately, so it would benefit him to get her to 5N somehow. He seems to have had a support system (after the fact, anyhow). Maybe they went back for her, but she had already passed?

Then again, why would both MB and JR cover for CR? I can see one of them possibly doing so, but why both? Maybe MB if they're BFs. But it would seem like JR would need more motivation, i.e., giving her hard drugs at the party, etc.
 
I am still amazed at how well the 2 POIs of 5N who were pounding shots until wee hrs of am could function so well on Fri am. For JR, not much sleep. I really would like to know what transpired afterJR watched her round corner. Back to sleep for him? What time did the ***** hit the fan (pardon pls), when 5N got wind of LS MIA. The trail of texts, vm, twitter..has to shed some light.
 
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