IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

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sammi89 said:
Your response made me consider what I would think of them if tomorrow LS was found and they had nothing to do with it.
(snipped for relevance by vv)
- CR/JR/MB would still just seem bad in my eyes. Even if LS really did leave, CR carried her back & supposedly MB & JR just let her leave, and from their public responses, they just don't seem to care at all that something terrible happened to this girl. I just don't see any redeeming qualities in how they have handled the situation at all.
Click to expand...

Considering what you said "nothing to do with it" and then your last passage about CR/JR/MB, doesn't mean to you that they did have something to do with it? Regardless of the theory, they are culpable. The question is to what degree. If they were just selfish hedonistic asses and poof she was taken up in an Ixchel-like UFO and dropped over into some ex-cons hands over at the halfway house how much culpability would you say CR/MB/JR had? It's still give them at least half of the credit for their negligence.

But if on the other hand one could actually prove that LS were directly supplied, drugged, raped, and/or died in their presence it would go up to 100%.

The only difference is what? Evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt vs. Preponderance. No evidence then no crime. But LS did exist and we are forever bound due to whatever reason to shine a light on this case until it is solved. The evidence that is public should in itself be enough to show Preponderance. What is lacking is the Evidence to convict someone criminally beyond a reasonable doubt. The perps may relish in that today.
There was something very calculated about how LS's body was vanished.
The conspiracy to do that is just the tip of an iceberg of what such people are capable of. Once in a while such people go on to live their life and never tip their hand. Most of the time, they do something or it leaks out or a shred of evidence turns up and it all unwinds.

Obviously money buys a lot of "luck" in our system or for that matter pretty much globally. So, these punks are feeling lucky aren't they?
 
sammi89 said:
I agree 100%.

CR goes to bed and dumps LS on MB
MB dumps LS on JR and goes back home(?)
JR tries to dump her on a couple people and when no one answers, sends her off into the night.

How do any of them know what the other did? CR wouldn't know what EITHER MB or JR did. MB wouldn't know what JR did. Of course, to believe that any of them left her alone with just JR you are taking their word for it.


Then you have HT sticking up for everyone, including JW, right?

I know that no one wants to think their friend could do something terrible to another friend, but to blindly defend them 100%? They could not know 100%, according to their own stories.
Click to expand...

I agree.

As much as I hope each day there will be something NEW in this case, there really isn't. We have discussed this before several times, even in the months right after LS vanished. But sure, I'm happy to go over anything again and again in hopes something will shake from it.

Look at the behavior of CR/MB/JR right up to the most recent reports.
If that scenario actually unfolded with such precise plausible mutual deniability, would you not expect CR to think something fishy about MB or JR's stories? OR MB about JR's story? Or JR to possibly suspect CR or MB?
but they are not! They all believe each others stories without question it seems! That seems fishy to me!

Rather than helping solve the case they are all holding hands in a code of silence. Really rotten fish stench! Also, no need for CR to have amnesia if he really just went to sleep that night leaving LS to MB. He only needs amnesia to not be able to explain what happened AFTER that alley exit fall.
Someone knows very well that the way prosecutors work is to to evolve inconsistencies from various statements. Having amnesia is the perfect solution. Why not just say... oh... yeah I went to bed, she was with MB?
Because they would ask questions about her condition, her falls, what happened between the alley and 5N? and so on... too much could go wrong answering all of that. So amnesia.

There also is no question in my mind that those who can hire the very best lawyers that money can buy, can also hire or manipulate others into driving a PR campaign on their behalf, even right here on WS.

To get justice or at least closer to the "truth" when there is so much money to throw a smoke screen up it requires a lot of people working very hard to flush it out. Personally, I'm tired of people with money being able to buy their way out of everything. This investigation must never stop until they are held accountable.

I find it hard to believe that all of the people involved are void of a conscience. At least one of them has some kind of knowledge and guilt. And it will grow and haunt them until they do something about it.

I would also not be surprised if one of the key 3 turns up dead.
It's not at all unusual for the more paranoid conspirator to kill (or hire someone to kill) the one that is more apt to spill the beans.
 
CoolJ said:
Possibly, but the most likely scenario is that someone breaks free and turns against the others. Not all of them can be complete sociopaths. Can they?
Click to expand...

not having seen your post, I just posted something very similar.

so, we may be sensing something...
 
VeryVeritas said:
Considering what you said "nothing to do with it" and then your last passage about CR/JR/MB, doesn't mean to you that they did have something to do with it? Regardless of the theory, they are culpable. The question is to what degree. If they were just selfish hedonistic asses and poof she was taken up in an Ixchel-like UFO and dropped over into some ex-cons hands over at the halfway house how much culpability would you say CR/MB/JR had? It's still give them at least half of the credit for their negligence.

But if on the other hand one could actually prove that LS were directly supplied, drugged, raped, and/or died in their presence it would go up to 100%.

The only difference is what? Evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt vs. Preponderance. No evidence then no crime. But LS did exist and we are forever bound due to whatever reason to shine a light on this case until it is solved. The evidence that is public should in itself be enough to show Preponderance. What is lacking is the Evidence to convict someone criminally beyond a reasonable doubt. The perps may relish in that today.
There was something very calculated about how LS's body was vanished.
The conspiracy to do that is just the tip of an iceberg of what such people are capable of. Once in a while such people go on to live their life and never tip their hand. Most of the time, they do something or it leaks out or a shred of evidence turns up and it all unwinds.

Obviously money buys a lot of "luck" in our system or for that matter pretty much globally. So, these punks are feeling lucky aren't they?
Click to expand...

What I've been saying all along is, IF she managed to leave JR's and was walking alone in that area at that time , especially seeming vulnerable, it wouldn't be weird if someone grabbed her. Yes the halfway house is right there across the street from the corner she was supposedly last seen on. You could be looking out from the windows and see the corner BTW.
But, chances are, something else happened. Many people and things may have precipitated the final outcome but didn't technically cause the final outcome.
We can't for sure know what happened, but we seem to know that what we are being told by the last people who saw her is not true. Big holes have been torn out of this story.
 
:please:Today's the day, y'all. Judge Tanya Walton Pratt will consider the boys' motion to dismiss the Spierer's lawsuit. Prayers for the best outcome--one that can bring Lauren home. :please:
 
I think Rob Spierer has wanted to meet Corey Rossman for a very long time. That time will soon arrive. No way will Judge Tanya Walton Pratt throw out this case. No way!
 
Jacobite said:
I think Rob Spierer has wanted to meet Corey Rossman for a very long time. That time will soon arrive. No way will Judge Tanya Walton Pratt throw out this case. No way!
Click to expand...

I think the wrongful death suit should be thrown out. do you know something about this judge to make you think she won't toss it?
 
Jupiter812 said:
MB off the hook because he took her to JR's and he did not give her alcohol. Judge could decide what to do with CR and JR in two weeks.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...its-in-lauren-spierers-disappearance/3809185/
Click to expand...

Darn. MB was the one individual I thought may "break" under pressure of the suit. Now.. no more direct pressure on MB. Although the suit against him is dismissed, will he still be deposed in the suits against CR and JR if they are allowed to proceed?

Also.. I feel a bit aggravated that the reason the suit against MB is being dismissed is 'because he took her to JR's'. Is JR a doctor? Does he live at a hospital? No.

He saw her in the same failing state as both CR and JR did. He took her to a place (JR's) at which there is no expectation she would receive medical attention. He took her to someone who is no more capable than himself of providing LS with care-- in fact, if it is true that MB was doing homework that night and JR had been partying, then sober MB should have been more capable of caring for Lauren than JR.

I understand this in the legal sense, but personally it rubs me the wrong way.
 
I've always thought the civil case was on shaky ground although I didn't read any case histories that might've swayed me the other way. In fact, I was surprised that the judge froze the case as opposed to allowing depositions, etc leading up to this hearing (if for nothing else to allow the Spierers to strengthen their case). I saw that freeze as a signal there were potential problems with the case in the judge's opinion.

If one of the 3 is already cut loose it's going to weaken the leverage on the other two. As for evidence gathering... they probably weren't going to talk anyway and simply plead the 5th or utilize a lot of "I don't recalls" in their testimony. As long as they are willing to risk losing in civil court then there's little to be gained in the case. And there's also a bad precedent that has been set: The case appears to exist as it is based on what cooperation there was. In future cases this will become exhibit A as to attorneys advising their clients against speaking at all.

It was always a Hail Mary, to use a sports analogy, IMO.
 
Jupiter812 said:
MB off the hook because he took her to JR's and he did not give her alcohol. Judge could decide what to do with CR and JR in two weeks.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...its-in-lauren-spierers-disappearance/3809185/
Click to expand...

I suppose it's hinging on alcohol since it's the "known quantity." And then there's the following:

"Pratt also said Spierer had her own responsibility to take care of herself even though she was drunk."

I really feel this is an oversimplification of what apparently went down that night. Intoxicated is one thing. Intoxicated with facial bruising is another, IMO. If JR could see it (and he's mentioned it), MB should have as well.

Perhaps MB does have less responsibility in a legal sense ... but as Dixie notes, if he was the only sober one he could have more in an ethical one. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but I hope this haunts him. I'd add "forever," but I hope he spills way before that.
 
VeryVeritas said:
Considering what you said "nothing to do with it" and then your last passage about CR/JR/MB, doesn't mean to you that they did have something to do with it? Regardless of the theory, they are culpable. The question is to what degree. If they were just selfish hedonistic asses and poof she was taken up in an Ixchel-like UFO and dropped over into some ex-cons hands over at the halfway house how much culpability would you say CR/MB/JR had? It's still give them at least half of the credit for their negligence.

But if on the other hand one could actually prove that LS were directly supplied, drugged, raped, and/or died in their presence it would go up to 100%.

The only difference is what? Evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt vs. Preponderance. No evidence then no crime. But LS did exist and we are forever bound due to whatever reason to shine a light on this case until it is solved. The evidence that is public should in itself be enough to show Preponderance. What is lacking is the Evidence to convict someone criminally beyond a reasonable doubt. The perps may relish in that today.
There was something very calculated about how LS's body was vanished.
The conspiracy to do that is just the tip of an iceberg of what such people are capable of. Once in a while such people go on to live their life and never tip their hand. Most of the time, they do something or it leaks out or a shred of evidence turns up and it all unwinds.

Obviously money buys a lot of "luck" in our system or for that matter pretty much globally. So, these punks are feeling lucky aren't they?
Click to expand...


Yes, essentially, I agree. By saying they had nothing to do it with it, I only meant that if some other cause resulted in her final outcome (i.e., the stranger theory or JW, for CR/MB/JR). They were with her, they saw her either hitting her head (CR) or bruises forming, and, according to their own stories, basically left her to fend for herself when it appears she really could not (falling, assisted to JR's, they even called friends for a ride which implies they didn't think she should walk alone).

Totally agree with the points you made though.
 
imkeylime said:
I suppose it's hinging on alcohol since it's the "known quantity." And then there's the following:

"Pratt also said Spierer had her own responsibility to take care of herself even though she was drunk."

I really feel this is an oversimplification of what apparently went down that night. Intoxicated is one thing. Intoxicated with facial bruising is another, IMO. If JR could see it (and he's mentioned it), MB should have as well.

Perhaps MB does have less responsibility in a legal sense ... but as Dixie notes, if he was the only sober one he could have more in an ethical one. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but I hope this haunts him. I'd add "forever," but I hope he spills way before that.
Click to expand...

Not only that, but it reeks of an excuse. Why even bother taking her to JR's? They knew each other, but it appears they weren't that close. Why not just call the taxi for her? She was with CR, why not let her sleep it off at their place? Taking her to JR's at all is weird to me, imo. ESPECIALLY if the facial bruising was already apparent!

However, the amnesia that hit around this period, the puking (supposedly CR), and the bruises on LS & her having difficulty walking.... Perhaps he went for help? I just can't wrap my head around why a man would dump a girl on someone else in this condition, especially with facial bruising, because one of the things I know I would be wondering when I opened the door is "did he do that?!"

It just seems like as soon as CR was back at 5N with LS each one of them wanted LS gone and gone fast.
 
So far this case has done nothing but remind me there is no law against being a despicable person.
 
sammi89 said:
Not only that, but it reeks of an excuse. Why even bother taking her to JR's? They knew each other, but it appears they weren't that close. Why not just call the taxi for her? She was with CR, why not let her sleep it off at their place? Taking her to JR's at all is weird to me, imo. ESPECIALLY if the facial bruising was already apparent!

However, the amnesia that hit around this period, the puking (supposedly CR), and the bruises on LS & her having difficulty walking.... Perhaps he went for help? I just can't wrap my head around why a man would dump a girl on someone else in this condition, especially with facial bruising, because one of the things I know I would be wondering when I opened the door is "did he do that?!"

It just seems like as soon as CR was back at 5N with LS each one of them wanted LS gone and gone fast.
Click to expand...

That's a good question ... why DID he dump her on JR? I guess the excuse is that JR knew her better, but might it possibly be 1) that JR would know who to contact in such a situation or 2) that JR knew what else contributed to her condition?

Also, some people are cool-headed in a crisis and some flip out. I've seen it in real life—and the ones you think would be steady sometimes crash and burn. I wonder if CR was the crashing type, hence throwing up and the "amnesia." Maybe MB really did have to attend to CR in some fashion, so he handed LS off to JR asap.
 
imkeylime said:
That's a good question ... why DID he dump her on JR? I guess the excuse is that JR knew her better, but might it possibly be 1) that JR would know who to contact in such a situation or 2) that JR knew what else contributed to her condition?

Also, some people are cool-headed in a crisis and some flip out. I've seen it in real life—and the ones you think would be steady sometimes crash and burn. I wonder if CR was the crashing type, hence throwing up and the "amnesia." Maybe MB really did have to attend to CR in some fashion, so he handed LS off to JR asap.
Click to expand...

If only this could be like in the movies where some guy like Dirty Harry would squeeze MB's nuts or something and ask him to fess up. "Tell me...why did you say Lauren wanted to party?" Oh, you think THAT hurts?! Wimp.
 
Just thinking (and typing) out loud - maybe with MB "off the hook" it will give him the opportunity, and guts, to tell what he really knows?

All I do know, and can say confidently, is that the truth will come to light one day, I just hope it's sooner rather than later and I'm here to see it through until then. My continued love and support to the Spierer family.

As always, thank you to my fellow posters, you are the best!
 
Jupiter812 said:
If only this could be like in the movies where some guy like Dirty Harry would squeeze MB's nuts or something and ask him to fess up. "Tell me...why did you say Lauren wanted to party?" Oh, you think THAT hurts?! Wimp.
Click to expand...

Well, it is the season of nutcrackers :)
 
My take on the Judge's statement re: LS having her own responsibility to take care of herself even though she was drunk. .is that use of involuntary substances (the rufie discussions) are not under consideration at least in this suit. Or am I reading this wrong?
 
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