IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[Jacobite]

The most damning thing against the POIs is that they got lawyers so soon and this makes us believe they knew Lauren was not coming back.

 

[Jacobite]

For her to die on the way to CR's, it would have to be from the head smack. So is it that you believe she smacked her head, but the witness is wrong about the time? Can you have it both ways? When there is something as glaring as
an hour's discrepancy, something is either very right about the witness'
testimony or very wrong.

Very good! Every other fact stated by this witness turned out to be false. Yet those who want the OD theory use her as for Lauren's condition.

And, why are they using Jacobite's info about DOGS? The same poster accused Jacobite of hearing voices.

 

[AbbeyR]

LE and the PI's have stated that the time of the witness was wrong but that the witness existed. The other person's identity has been confirmed to be Corey Rossman. There are cameras there, and it's clear from the PI's report that at least some of this was captured on video surveillance.

So it seems most likely that the witness simply got the time wrong. Or, Tony Gatto's reporting was not accurate (like most of his reporting on Lauren's case).

 

[Jacobite]

LE and the PI's have stated that the time of the witness was wrong but that the witness existed. The other person's identity has been confirmed to be Corey Rossman. There are cameras there, and it's clear from the PI's report that at least some of this was captured on video surveillance.

So it seems most likely that the witness simply got the time wrong. Or, Tony Gatto's reporting was not accurate (like most of his reporting on Lauren's case).

She got much more than the time wrong.

 

[AbbeyR]

But sure it is possible that CR did make it back to 5N with LS and then she died and they brought her back to that dumpster area. It just seems less likely to me. The reason I think this is that if you were going to bring her down deceased (in whatever) it would make sense to just put her directly into a vehicle or cart her off (in whatever - like some luggage has wheels, some coolers have wheels, some golf club bags have wheels, back packs would not look odd, etc... ) Taking the cadaver hit at the dumpster as Credible and Real makes it much more likely (to me) that she never made it back to 5N.

This is also a crucial timeframe (post Alley Cam but before 3:30 call from MB to JR) There never has been any mention of CR using his own phone at all this night. MB, JR, DR, DB, and LS all had some sort of known phone activity. Curious to me that CR didn't.

True. That is strange. I don't have time to go back and read those PT threads again, but I vaguely remember that my first impression of Ray's story (from JR/MB) was that Corey went home while the other guys were either in the alley or at JR's. It's possible he just got the story mixed up or that I am misremembering, but given the conflicting stories from MB about where he was and who was home first, I think it's very possible they are lying about where they all were from that point. Did they meet up in the alley on the way home? Did they go back to JR's? Did MB really bring Lauren over? There's got to be a reason why this story has been so convoluted.

 

[AbbeyR]

She got much more than the time wrong.

So what did she get wrong? How could you know? Link? Logic? Evidence?

 

[Jacobite]

Doesn't the Spierer lawsuit say these guys let Lauren walk off intoxicated and injured in a dangerous neighborhood?

 

[Jacobite]

So what did she get wrong? How could you know? Link? Logic? Evidence?

Answer. The LoHud video. Just about everything reported to Tony Gattto was incorrect.

 

[Ixchel13]

This is a believable scenario, but I still have a few questions: (not trying to attack at all, just trying to figure out your reasoning)
Why if she passed at 10th and college would JR/CR/MB take the fall for being the last to see her? That puts them in a lot of trouble, why wouldn't CR have just said that he left Lauren at ZC's, what would get JR and MB to admit to seeing her after the pregame party?
Why would there be an argument in the first place? If ZC had taken her phone, why would she have done that/ how did they then get her phone to Kilroys?

BBM, all good questions. If she passed near 10th and C, it would be after she rounded the corner for home, not on the way to 5N with CR. This is a big if, but what IF LE does has Lauren turning the corner on video? Or for some reason, they believe the story up to the point of her turning that corner? But they still think JR is covering for culprits within the same loosely knit group?
All of the people Lauren had been partying with that night lived in various residences on Lauren's path home. If it wasn't random, someone in this arena did it.
CR is giving himself the benefit of the doubt whether it was amnesia but has the head blow on video to prove it if necessary, or more likely, when necessary. Well ZC could have taken her phone because she was going to be where Lauren was headed or was trying to get Lauren in trouble with JW.
She was at the party with Lauren down the hall at SW. Maybe she witnessed Lauren texting/calling JW and saying she was going to bed. Then going out
but forgetting/dropping her phone. Or leaving her phone at SW at the apt., and one of the girls goes to the apt with HT after Lauren leaves. Supposedly
JW is texting Lauren until he falls asleep. Why would ZC or any of the girls do something like this? Don't know exactly, but at least we know where all the women are: the 4 women at Zoe's + HT + Lauren=at least 6 women involved.

I just graduated from college, and I'm about as attached to my phone as any other girl in their early 20s, but there have been times when I've been out with friends and put my phone down and forgotten about it until the next day. Especially if Lauren was as messed up as the footage has said she was (ie falling multiple times, falling facedown without putting her hands out, etc) I just can't see her being that hell bent on getting her phone back that she'd be able to go to multiple locations or get into an altercation about her phone. If she was as out of it as we've been led to believe I just can't picture her caring about or even remembering her phone.

I know, it doesn't seem likely, until you figure she knew JW would be texting her, or if she was worried that someone would text him back, even innocently, if they had her phone. She was retracing her steps starting after Kilroys:
1. apt. down the hall from her's 2. 10th and College..she was with these girls at SW down the hall from her apt.3. CRs. She was there for an hour
during the pre-game. 4. JRs. she was there at pre-game.
I mean it just seems like at Kilroy's she realized she didn't have her phone and started looking for it at all the places she'd been without her possessive boyfriend's knowledge

IMO, even without the phone, something happened to Lauren post/JR's within the evening's cast of characters, including a lethal head smack and
someone JR needed to shelter and CR doesn't want to cross.

 

[AbbeyR]

Doesn't the Spierer lawsuit merely reiterate the statements made by the POI?

 

[AbbeyR]

Answer. The LoHud video. Just about everything.

We've talked about this so many times. The time was wrong. Gatto's description of 'dark skinned' is odd, but there was no indication as to whether this meant skin tone, ethnicity, etc., making his reporting questionable. What else?

What was confirmed by LE was that this witness did exist, and that Lauren and a person known to LE were captured on camera at 10th and College, just not at the time reported by Gatto. The scene described (Lauren hitting her head, the man carrying Lauren over her shoulders) - was repeated by the PI's in the Lohud Video, who confirmed it was Corey. It's clear they have both witness testimony and video surveillance, reinforcing the earlier statement from LE. The scene described is also entirely consistent with the video surveillance described from Smallwood just before, where Lauren is falling down and Corey picks her up and carries her out the door.

That's my understanding.

 

[Jacobite]

We've talked about this so many times. The time was wrong. Gatto's description of 'dark skinned' is odd, but there was no indication as to whether this meant skin tone, ethnicity, etc., making his reporting questionable. What else?

What was confirmed by LE was that this witness did exist, and was captured on camera, just not at the time reported by Gatto. The scene described (Lauren hitting her head, Corey carrying Lauren over her shoulders) - was repeated by the PI's in the Lohud Video, and it's clear they have both witness testimony and video surveillance, reinforcing the earlier statement from LE. The scene described is also entirely consistent with the video surveillance described from Smallwood just before, where Lauren is falling down and Corey picks her up and carries her out the door.

That's my understanding.

There was no camera right at 10th and College. She must have seen Lauren on the steps near the alley.

She thought she just got off work. That was wrong too.

A better question would be. What did she say that was true?

 

[Jacobite]

The only drugs I can say with confidence used by boys at 5 N are weed and alcohol. And, the only one I can say used weed is Corey because he was arrested.

The people who made the drug claims on PT were not there.

A person claiming to be HT's sister posted that Lauren was drunk. And, indeed the lawsuit is about serving alcohol.

 

[Jacobite]

Let's say a friend dies in your Indiana home tonight. You failed to dial 911 and you bury the body in your backyard.

You face the same penalty as someone else caught with an oversized ounce of pot.

So, if we want to keep pressure on solving this case, we need to explore the likely possibility that Lauren was a victim of a very serious crime

And, I have never seen a victim so defamed as this one. I don't accept it and will have no part in that.

 

[AbbeyR]

Lauren was, obviously, the victim of a very serious crime. (?!)

Who here is defaming the victim? I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing that any mention of overdose is somehow saying something negative about Lauren. Or am I misunderstanding? I think we can probably all agree that the topic of drugs is a sensitive one and has been used against Lauren in a horrible way (especially by certain POI and their parents), but everyone involved in this conversation on WS has been appalled by that.

Looking at the possible involvement of drugs in Lauren's condition and disappearance is in no way blaming the victim. The fact is that from literally the day she went missing, there have been rumors about drugs and possible overdose -- rumors that came from sources and witnesses who are key players in this case. It it something to consider, given the fact that if the guys at 5 N (or anyone else) gave Lauren drugs with or without her knowledge and this led to her death, they could be charged with homicide in Indiana. This would obviously provide motive for not calling 911 and hiding Lauren.

Is there some kind of evidence that suggests this didn't/ couldn't have happened? By all means, lay it out for us. This is just one possibility, among many that have been considered here. I can't name a single person here that seems sold on any one theory of this case. We have considered the role of drugs, sexual assault, accident, random abduction and countless other scenarios. But given the few pieces of evidence we have, and the words and actions from the POI themselves, some theories seem more plausible than others.

 

[holly18]

I know, it doesn't seem likely, until you figure she knew JW would be texting her, or if she was worried that someone would text him back, even innocently, if they had her phone. She was retracing her steps starting after Kilroys:
1. apt. down the hall from her's 2. 10th and College..she was with these girls at SW down the hall from her apt.3. CRs. She was there for an hour
during the pre-game. 4. JRs. she was there at pre-game.
I mean it just seems like at Kilroy's she realized she didn't have her phone and started looking for it at all the places she'd been without her possessive boyfriend's knowledge

IMO, even without the phone, something happened to Lauren post/JR's within the evening's cast of characters, including a lethal head smack and
someone JR needed to shelter and CR doesn't want to cross.

I think your theory is plausible but it needs a few assumptions to be fact in order for it to hold together: it seems like a frequent element throughout several threads is the suggestion that if LS had an intention of hooking up with CR/hanging out with him and was lying to JW about it, her friends would have sided with JW. As far as I know, HT, ZC, etc were Lauren's friends, I haven't seen anything pointing to them being friends with JW beyond the friend's boyfriend relationship. If ZC had LS's phone because she expected to see her later on, wouldn't she just text CR and say "hey, let lauren know I have her phone"?

Also, there has been very little to prove that JW was at all possessive, yet a lot of theories seem to hinge on that. There's no evidence that he was possessive, let alone possessive enough to have LS wandering around in awful shape in order to get her phone back to text him. (I know that originally the Spierers were supportive of him, IMO if he had been possessive to that extent they would have been well aware and would have drawn attention to it.)

I think the theory that she was trying to find her phone has too many variables (but then again, so do most theories in this case because we have so few known facts): LS's friends would have to think that she was doing something wrong by hanging out with CR, they would have had to want to take her phone because of that, they would have had to be loyal to JW above CR, LS would have had to realize her phone was gone, LS would have had to actively look for her phone despite the shape she was in, and then whoever had her phone would have had had to get it back to Kilroys. Most of all, if LS passed at ZC's or trying to get her phone back from ZC, why would MB, CR and JR all cover for her? I think if there was another POI they could throw attention onto they would have done so to distract from themselves.

IMO a lot of those elements don't make sense to me. If LS was so desperate to get her phone back she would have been calling/texting her phone from CR's phone or the phone of anyone she was with. I think if when LE looked at her phone they had found a ton of texts indicating that lauren was freaking out about not having her phone and indicated she was actively looking for it, we would have heard about it.

What really stands out to me is that the phone was found at Kilroys. I can't really think up a scenario where her phone would have been placed at kilroys after the fact. Why risk it? If ZC had LS's phone why wouldn't she just give it to HT/JW/whoever the next morning?

I totally agree with your last paragraph, I think the 5N boys had something to do with it or are protecting someone they're afraid of.

 

[Jacobite]

The dogs were certainly trained to sniff for drugs. If drugs had been found in the search of apartments, we would see these guys prosecuted for said drugs and the police would have some leverage to make these guys talk.

Two years ago, Rob Spierer said in the newspapers that Lauren's friends said she did not use drugs. But, maybe she was given a date rape drug. Can anyone now provide a link to where he has changed his mind?

 

[holly18]

Lauren was, obviously, the victim of a very serious crime. (?!)

Who here is defaming the victim? I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing that any mention of overdose is somehow saying something negative about Lauren. Or am I misunderstanding? I think we can probably all agree that the topic of drugs is a sensitive one and has been used against Lauren in a horrible way (especially by certain POI and their parents), but everyone involved in this conversation on WS has been appalled by that.

Looking at the possible involvement of drugs in Lauren's condition and disappearance is in no way blaming the victim. The fact is that from literally the day she went missing, there have been rumors about drugs and possible overdose -- rumors that came from sources and witnesses who are key players in this case. It it something to consider, given the fact that if the guys at 5 N (or anyone else) gave Lauren drugs with or without her knowledge and this led to her death, they could be charged with homicide in Indiana. This would obviously provide motive for not calling 911 and hiding Lauren.

Is there some kind of evidence that suggests this didn't/ couldn't have happened? By all means, lay it out for us. This is just one possibility, among many that have been considered here. I can't name a single person here that seems sold on any one theory of this case. We have considered the role of drugs, sexual assault, accident, random abduction and countless other scenarios. But given the few pieces of evidence we have, and the words and actions from the POI themselves, some theories seem more plausible than others.

I agree with you. I think given the reports of LS's condition drugs are a very real possibility. Nobody can say with certainty if LS took drugs willingly or was drugged, but (in my opinion) neither of these reflect badly on Lauren AT ALL. Even if she did willingly do a drug or two, I think everyone with a heart can agree that she by no means deserved any of what happened that night or whats happened since. IMO its important to look at different angles, we can't assume that no drugs are involved because given the rumors and even some of the facts from that night that just isn't realistic.
I think one of the reasons that drugs work their way into most theories is because drugs would provide a few reasons for the POI's behavior. If they had supplied lauren with drugs (with or without her permission/knowledge), they would have a more vested interest in keeping that (and thus lauren) hidden.

IMO whether Lauren was incapacitated from drinking or drugs doesn't make a huge difference in anything but the behavior of the POIs. I do have to question, though, if LS was just very drunk and something happened, why wouldn't the boys/someone call 911? Saying "Oh, I don't know where she got the alcohol, but she came over and needed help so we called an ambulance" would not lead to many charges/problems for whoever called 911, but calling 911 and having LE find drugs at 5N/Smallwood/wherever would have more consequences for whoever supplied Lauren with those drugs.

I would hope that everyone on this board can agree that we want to find Lauren, and have sympathy and empathy for what happened to her and what her family is going through. Theorizing about drugs does not mean that anyone is defaming lauren, its because we want to examine all the possibilities and find out what happened to her.

 

[holly18]

The dogs were certainly trained to sniff for drugs. If drugs had been found in the search of apartments, we would see these guys prosecuted for said drugs and the police would have some leverage to make these guys talk.

Two years ago, Rob Spierer said in the newspapers that Lauren's friends said she did not use drugs. But, maybe she was given a date rape drug. Can anyone now provide a link to where he has changed his mind?

Hi Jacobite- you posted a few pages ago saying that Rob spierer had said that the OD theory has been disproven. I've looked for statements from any of the spierers saying this or hinting at it and can't find anything. Can you point me towards where you read this?

 

[sammi89]

I agree with you. I think given the reports of LS's condition drugs are a very real possibility. Nobody can say with certainty if LS took drugs willingly or was drugged, but (in my opinion) neither of these reflect badly on Lauren AT ALL. Even if she did willingly do a drug or two, I think everyone with a heart can agree that she by no means deserved any of what happened that night or whats happened since. IMO its important to look at different angles, we can't assume that no drugs are involved because given the rumors and even some of the facts from that night that just isn't realistic.
I think one of the reasons that drugs work their way into most theories is because drugs would provide a few reasons for the POI's behavior. If they had supplied lauren with drugs (with or without her permission/knowledge), they would have a more vested interest in keeping that (and thus lauren) hidden.

IMO whether Lauren was incapacitated from drinking or drugs doesn't make a huge difference in anything but the behavior of the POIs. I do have to question, though, if LS was just very drunk and something happened, why wouldn't the boys/someone call 911? Saying "Oh, I don't know where she got the alcohol, but she came over and needed help so we called an ambulance" would not lead to many charges/problems for whoever called 911, but calling 911 and having LE find drugs at 5N/Smallwood/wherever would have more consequences for whoever supplied Lauren with those drugs.

I would hope that everyone on this board can agree that we want to find Lauren, and have sympathy and empathy for what happened to her and what her family is going through. Theorizing about drugs does not mean that anyone is defaming lauren, its because we want to examine all the possibilities and find out what happened to her.

I agree 100%. I have always thought an OD was possible and have never meant it in a way that would defame LS. Many, many people have experimented and they are not "bad" people. It is always possible that any (if any at all) drug use may have been involuntary. Regardless, an OD does not and should not be fatal if there are others around that are able to get necessary help/call 911.