IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[VeryVeritas]

No, not the same person, Monkey222.



http://www.indystar.com/article/20110626/LOCAL/106260358?nclick_check=1

(quoted here: http://refugeesunleashed.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=26095&start=125)

That's very interesting. Where does KW and roommate live?
Why do they say within 10 feet? If they walked on the 5N side of the street would they not have passed right by the doors for CR/MB's and JR's... wouldn't 10 feet be almost out to the curb?

 

[VeryVeritas]

The point of bringing this up in the first place was not to try to determine if Kelly could have seen Lauren. It was to get a sense of the overall level of party activity and people in the streets. Kelly said it was quiet. Fortunately, this can be easily corroborated. So once again, I'm going with Kelly's statement.

Quiet doesn't mean no one else was around. I wonder if either KW or her roommate saw someone else on 11th, standing, entering a building, exiting, walking, etc... or even someone sitting in a vehicle. They may have noticed such a thing... and sometimes under hypnosis people recall details they otherwise consciously wouldn't recall. I would be very curious to pursue that because of the specific times involved 3:45 and 4:20... so close to times when LS was said to be in motion. If KW or Roommate saw anyone at all... that could lead to something more.

 

[AbbeyR]

Another question I have... Was it ever confirmed anywhere that Cadavar Dogs were actually brought in on the investigation? The only thing I can find is about a psychic who brought her 2 dogs, and they both hit on the same location at desperate times. When the police and LS parents were notified ther parents asked for the police to bring in dogs to verify, but (according to the psychic) the police refused and said they already brought dogs in that hit in the same location as well. Apparently the LE had not informed LS parents about this until this occasion with the psychic. All of this is what the psychic had posted on her Facebook.

I've always had questions about this too. It was not confirmed officially. This story was, however, backed up by someone named Don Cranfill in comments on the Facebook page. While I don't personally believe the psychic or her dogs are credible, people here said that Don Cranfill was the search coordinator (not in any way connected to the psychic) and helping Lauren's parents, and I got the sense that he was well respected and a credible source of information. I don't know though... maybe a local knows more? This is the reason I've never totally dismissed the possibility of a cadaver dog hit.

 

[AbbeyR]

Quiet doesn't mean no one else was around. I wonder if either KW or her roommate saw someone else on 11th, standing, entering a building, exiting, walking, etc... or even someone sitting in a vehicle. They may have noticed such a thing... and sometimes under hypnosis people recall details they otherwise consciously wouldn't recall. I would be very curious to pursue that because of the specific times involved 3:45 and 4:20... so close to times when LS was said to be in motion. If KW or Roommate saw anyone at all... that could lead to something more.

The 'walking alone in a striped sundress' line made me think maybe they were identifying people captured on video surveillance (or is this just a random detail added in? who knows). I think (/hope) LE has more video than we know about.

 

[doubtingthomas]

Another question I have... Was it ever confirmed anywhere that Cadavar Dogs were actually brought in on the investigation? The only thing I can find is about a psychic who brought her 2 dogs, and they both hit on the same location at desperate times. When the police and LS parents were notified ther parents asked for the police to bring in dogs to verify, but (according to the psychic) the police refused and said they already brought dogs in that hit in the same location as well. Apparently the LE had not informed LS parents about this until this occasion with the psychic. All of this is what the psychic had posted on her Facebook.

http://www.examiner.com/article/lau...search-dogs-at-homes-of-4-persons-of-interest

On Wednesday police and search dogs were seen at the homes of four persons of interest in Lauren Spierer’s disappearance.
A Herald-Times photographer happened upon what appeared to be a search at the 5 North Townhomes late Wednesday afternoon, 6 News On Your Side reports.

Police were also seen entering the home of Lauren’s boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, in the 600 block of E. Ninth Street around 5 p.m. Wednesday, the newspaper reported.

Neighbor Matthew Cole was outside when police pulled up.
"I was out trying to clean up the yard and I saw a bunch of cars and police get out," said Cole. "They were chit chatting and then we saw a lady come out with a dog and she crossed the street to conduct a search."

Bloomington Police Captain Joseph Qualters released the following statement:

"We have previously acknowledged the use of canines as part of this investigation. The activity observed today is an indication that this investigation remains active and ongoing, but we will continue with our policy of not discussing the details of the investigation, including specific names, or anything related to evidence obtained."

Haven't found anything referencing Cadavar Dogs. Only dogs and canines.

 

[imkeylime]

http://www.examiner.com/article/lau...search-dogs-at-homes-of-4-persons-of-interest

On Wednesday police and search dogs were seen at the homes of four persons of interest in Lauren Spierer’s disappearance.
A Herald-Times photographer happened upon what appeared to be a search at the 5 North Townhomes late Wednesday afternoon, 6 News On Your Side reports.

Police were also seen entering the home of Lauren’s boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, in the 600 block of E. Ninth Street around 5 p.m. Wednesday, the newspaper reported.

Neighbor Matthew Cole was outside when police pulled up.
"I was out trying to clean up the yard and I saw a bunch of cars and police get out," said Cole. "They were chit chatting and then we saw a lady come out with a dog and she crossed the street to conduct a search."

Bloomington Police Captain Joseph Qualters released the following statement:

"We have previously acknowledged the use of canines as part of this investigation. The activity observed today is an indication that this investigation remains active and ongoing, but we will continue with our policy of not discussing the details of the investigation, including specific names, or anything related to evidence obtained."

Haven't found anything referencing Cadavar Dogs. Only dogs and canines.

I agree with your last statement. It would be very helpful to know which type of dogs were used. I've always assumed (bad thing, I know) that cadaver dogs would have been brought in, since LS' presence had been confirmed at both JR and CR/MB's. In other words, it's acknowledged that she was there, so wouldn't regular search dogs just further confirm that?

It would be interested in the dogs could confirm IF she made it back to 5N at all.

 

[hometownhoosier]

I agree with your last statement. It would be very helpful to know which type of dogs were used. I've always assumed (bad thing, I know) that cadaver dogs would have been brought in, since LS' presence had been confirmed at both JR and CR/MB's. In other words, it's acknowledged that she was there, so wouldn't regular search dogs just further confirm that?

It would be interested in the dogs could confirm IF she made it back to 5N at all.

Yes I agree this is what I have always wondered. They never specified what type of dogs they were as far as search and rescue, cadaver, or drug dogs. It makes me even more curious that they DON'T specify. They should have been brought in the first day of the investigation.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I agree with your last statement. It would be very helpful to know which type of dogs were used. I've always assumed (bad thing, I know) that cadaver dogs would have been brought in, since LS' presence had been confirmed at both JR and CR/MB's. In other words, it's acknowledged that she was there, so wouldn't regular search dogs just further confirm that?

It would be interested in the dogs could confirm IF she made it back to 5N at all.

If cadaver dogs were not used it would be pointless. It's not like anyone was saying that LS was NOT at 5N. Dogs simply picking up her scent could not differentiate between her being there at 12:30am and 3:00am.

If there was no Cadaver dog "Hit" at the dumpster behind 5N, then why did LE have an extensive search at the Dump where the 5N trash goes? Perhaps it should have been searched anyway... but it seems to me a lot of good places were not searched, like the sewers. So it seems LE was following a lead...

Drug dogs? Really, like there would be bags of stuff there after someone dies and goes missing. The POI's are far more intelligent than that. If LE brought in drug dogs instead of cadaver dogs then someone needs to be replaced at the BPD. But that does trigger some thoughts:
Whatever illicit materials were around, that vanished too. Sure you can flush some stuff down the toilet... but that's a risk... LE has been known to recover stuff from the commode. So, scales, pipes, baggies, pills, powders, razor blades, coke straws, buds, bongs... it all vanishes too? One could argue that stuff would vanish just because of the LE scrutiny. However... when Mr. Spierer and JW show up at 5N totally by surprise was that the scene? All clean? When LE shows up, was it also all clean? After a night of serious partying would you expect everything to be clean or would you expect to find obvious signs of partying? I'm betting it was squeaky clean.
We aren't privy to these kinds of details, but Mr. Spierer comparing notes with LE, they would know.

 

[VeryVeritas]

The 'walking alone in a striped sundress' line made me think maybe they were identifying people captured on video surveillance (or is this just a random detail added in? who knows). I think (/hope) LE has more video than we know about.

If LE has video(or interval photos) of some part of 11th st. that would be very useful. Would really like to know where KW was traveling from and where her apt is, same for her roommate. Perhaps by capturing them on video, but not LS, then LE knows that JR is full of it about LS leaving or perhaps that she never arrived after the alley fall.

 

[monkey222]

Couldn't non cadaver dogs be used at dumpster to sniff for LS articles' scent or drug scent?

 

[Jupiter812]

My personal feeling is LE agreed to the landfill search for a combination of reasons: (1) a lead through either their cadaver dog mission--or they privately find the psychic's hits credible enough; (2) public pressure; and (3) the likelihood that given Lauren's small size, she could be easily disappeared that way--hurts to write that :-(.

 

[Jupiter812]

If cadaver dogs were not used it would be pointless. It's not like anyone was saying that LS was NOT at 5N. Dogs simply picking up her scent could not differentiate between her being there at 12:30am and 3:00am.

If there was no Cadaver dog "Hit" at the dumpster behind 5N, then why did LE have an extensive search at the Dump where the 5N trash goes? Perhaps it should have been searched anyway... but it seems to me a lot of good places were not searched, like the sewers. So it seems LE was following a lead...

Drug dogs? Really, like there would be bags of stuff there after someone dies and goes missing. The POI's are far more intelligent than that. If LE brought in drug dogs instead of cadaver dogs then someone needs to be replaced at the BPD. But that does trigger some thoughts:
Whatever illicit materials were around, that vanished too. Sure you can flush some stuff down the toilet... but that's a risk... LE has been known to recover stuff from the commode. So, scales, pipes, baggies, pills, powders, razor blades, coke straws, buds, bongs... it all vanishes too? One could argue that stuff would vanish just because of the LE scrutiny. However... when Mr. Spierer and JW show up at 5N totally by surprise was that the scene? All clean? When LE shows up, was it also all clean? After a night of serious partying would you expect everything to be clean or would you expect to find obvious signs of partying? I'm betting it was squeaky clean.
We aren't privy to these kinds of details, but Mr. Spierer comparing notes with LE, they would know.

What's interesting is if it wasn't squeaky clean, it would speak more to their innocence, yes? Other than possessing drugs that is.

Was Mr. Spierer there or do you mean JW's dad? In either case, I envision them standing at the door and not being allowed to set foot in the apt.

 

[akh]

My personal feeling is LE agreed to the landfill search for a combination of reasons: (1) a lead through either their cadaver dog mission--or they privately find the psychic's hits credible enough; (2) public pressure; and (3) the likelihood that given Lauren's small size, she could be easily disappeared that way--hurts to write that :-(.

And to get a search warrant they should've had to articulate the reason for their desire to search the landfill. So what did it say?

IIRC the landfill required a search warrant for technical/policy reasons... although don't hold me to that at this point.

 

[imkeylime]

... Drug dogs? Really, like there would be bags of stuff there after someone dies and goes missing. The POI's are far more intelligent than that. If LE brought in drug dogs instead of cadaver dogs then someone needs to be replaced at the BPD. But that does trigger some thoughts:
Whatever illicit materials were around, that vanished too. Sure you can flush some stuff down the toilet... but that's a risk... LE has been known to recover stuff from the commode. So, scales, pipes, baggies, pills, powders, razor blades, coke straws, buds, bongs... it all vanishes too? One could argue that stuff would vanish just because of the LE scrutiny. However... when Mr. Spierer and JW show up at 5N totally by surprise was that the scene? All clean? When LE shows up, was it also all clean? After a night of serious partying would you expect everything to be clean or would you expect to find obvious signs of partying? I'm betting it was squeaky clean.
We aren't privy to these kinds of details, but Mr. Spierer comparing notes with LE, they would know.

Respectfully snipped by me. They would have had time enough to clean it up. There are so many drugs on college campuses these days. IMO, there had to be leverage on JR to claim he was the last to see LS if he actually wasn't. I wonder if there was a harder drug being passed at the party, i.e., coke, or if someone was selling a date-rape drug. Apart from that I still struggle with the choice to hide a body vs. call 911 (unless some other nefarious thing happened).

 

[AbbeyR]

It's hard to imagine people not calling 911 in the case of a drug overdose, but it happens all the time. There are serious charges possible for those involved, especially if they have supplied or shared drugs with the victim.

Snipped from an old post by CJ113

There has been some discussion in regards to a possible drug angle. Last night I spent a lot of time doing research on this subject. I found many cases where the person who purchased the drug and gave it to someone who died from it was charged with drug induced homicide, manslaughter or murder, depending on the state in which it happened. I found cases where a dealer sold it to someone who then gave it to someone else and that person died. Both the dealer and the second person were convicted of homicide. I also learned that if you give someone a drug and they die and you do nothing, you can be charged with manslaughter 1. According to my research, in Indiana, if you give someone a controlled substance and death occurs, it is a felony called dealing in-cause, with a classification of murder and a penalty of 10 years to life. Obviously, many of these cases get plead down to something less but not always. Just something to think about.

A quick google search came up with a few cases in Indiana, like this one:
http://www.owencounty.org/news/101201c.htm

I wasn't sure how drug related charges worked if people aren't caught in the process of a drug transaction or in possession of drugs, but it appears in this case that the arrest and murder charge was based at least in part on information provided from witnesses about where the drugs came from...

Edited to add: I was just looking at the Indiana Criminal Offense levels and penalties (here: http://www.defenselawyerindiana.com/levels.html) -- Remind me, wasn't one of these guys charged with possession (or dealing?) marijuana in the past? Corey Rossman?

 

[Mergatroid]

From yesterday's Indianapolis Star

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...ng-date-motion-dismiss-Lauren-Spierer-lawsuit

"Federal Judge Tanya Walton Pratt today set a December hearing on a motion to dismiss a negligence lawsuit filed against three men who were with missing Indiana University student Lauren Spierer the night she disappeared in 2011."

"Pratt will hear oral arguments in the case at 2 p.m. Dec. 2. The judge’s order says parties for both sides are allotted 30 minutes, for a total of one hour."

My first time posting a link...hope this works correctly.

 

[Jupiter812]

It's hard to imagine people not calling 911 in the case of a drug overdose, but it happens all the time. There are serious charges possible for those involved, especially if they have supplied or shared drugs with the victim.

Snipped from an old post by CJ113



A quick google search came up with a few cases in Indiana, like this one:
http://www.owencounty.org/news/101201c.htm

I wasn't sure how drug related charges worked if people aren't caught in the process of a drug transaction or in possession of drugs, but it appears in this case that the arrest and murder charge was based at least in part on information provided from witnesses about where the drugs came from...

Edited to add: I was just looking at the Indiana Criminal Offense levels and penalties (here: http://www.defenselawyerindiana.com/levels.html) -- Remind me, wasn't one of these guys charged with possession (or dealing?) marijuana in the past? Corey Rossman?

Yes, when he was a student at Briscoe. Possession only.

 

[Jupiter812]

Respectfully snipped by me. They would have had time enough to clean it up. There are so many drugs on college campuses these days. IMO, there had to be leverage on JR to claim he was the last to see LS if he actually wasn't. I wonder if there was a harder drug being passed at the party, i.e., coke, or if someone was selling a date-rape drug. Apart from that I still struggle with the choice to hide a body vs. call 911 (unless some other nefarious thing happened).

I sometimes wonder if he was coherent enough to remember fully. She might have been at his apt via MB. He might recall fuzzily her state and how he did not act on her behalf. He's ready to pass out so he goes upstairs. She wanders out the door...?

 

[mikkismom]

http://kokomotribune.com/breakingnews/x134995613/Hearing-set-in-suit-over-missing-IU-student

 

[Dixie811]

I sometimes wonder if he was coherent enough to remember fully. She might have been at his apt via MB. He might recall fuzzily her state and how he did not act on her behalf. He's ready to pass out so he goes upstairs. She wanders out the door...?

This is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about, not just regarding JR. It seems pretty apparent that Lauren was so intoxicated she could hardly function. The other players in this case (not just the "POI's", but also witnesses) were likely all intoxicated to some degree as well. From what we know, none of the other players seem so intoxicated as to be struggling to function like Lauren, but we really do not know how their memories of that night may be altered, fuzzy, mistaken, or missing.

This case is already complicated enough with so many different players telling different, varying stories of different pieces of that night. Then we must consider who may be lying and why. On top of that we must remember that some accounts may also be incorrect due to intoxication.

What are we left with? A huge mess.