IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[holly18]

I guess a highly intoxicated college girl is not alarming to a college guy such as JR and MB... but a the bruised face? I had my share of rough nights in college and many friends who were big partiers-- I never saw a girl with such an injury after a night out, and would have been alarmed if I did!

JR and MB should certainly have been concerned enough about Lauren to keep her at one of their apartments until morning. I presume that JR and/or MB would have asked Lauren why her face was bruised like that. Would love to know what her response was, if she was able to offer a coherent one. If they found out it was from a fall- even more reason for concern (assuming they know anything at all about head injuries). I experienced facial bruising around my eye(s) just once... after suffering a blow to the top of my forehead that left me with a skull fracture and a small brain bleed.

I am no doctor, but if the bruising on her face was from an impact that occurred elsewhere on the head (i.e. the bruise was a side-effect of a greater injury rather than from direct contact to that spot), then that is alarming and IMO it is likely what caused her death-- if nothing or no one else killed her first. I have known several people who have become unresponsive within hours of the injury and ultimately died due to brain injuries from a fall-- simple ones even; one tripped on the street curb and another slipped on ice.

BBM, one of the things that sticks out to me is that JR and MB were supposedly sober by that point (and supposedly MB had been sober all night...). In my experience, when someone is drunk it can be difficult to realize just how drunk someone else is (I mean in terms of 'had too much to drink' drunk, not falling down and badly bruised), but if these guys were sober shouldn't it have been even clearer to them that Lauren wasn't in the shape to walk home?

JR's story seems to be divided into two parts: Lauren was messed up, bruised and couldn't differentiate between a cellphone and ipod, but then a short time later she was able to walk without stumbling and he "let" her walk home alone.

 

[holly18]

Just to be clear I'm talking criminal case and how the sobriety test would point towards potential guilt. The sobriety test story in that context seems to me to be absolutely pointless to pointing the needle to guilt. It doesn't matter if someone believes the sobriety test story or not because the next part of the story is the key part.

The sobriety test story might be entirely true or totally fabricated. Who knows? Who cares? It's the next part of his story that matters (that she walked out the door on her own and by herself). Is that true? What does the sobriety test story tell us to confirm or deny that part?

Am I missing something about the importance of the alleged sobriety test in this context? If I'm not then why does the subject even come up as a discussion point about guilt and suspicion?

It feels like once people decide someone is guilty then everything becomes evidence. And of course then that leads to tunnelvision. ...Which is never good.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I think the sobriety test is interesting for a few different reasons. A lot of them have already been covered by other posters, but what stands out to me is the fact that JR even mentioned it. He was the last person known to see Lauren alive. He admits to that, and goes into detail. She came over, she was bruised, she tried to make calls using an ipod, he gave her a sobriety test and she left.
First of all, from his own account it seems odd that she would be able to pass any kind of sobriety test (and I'm talking about a college frat bro sobriety test, not a LE administered one or anything of that nature), so why mention the first part of his story where he acknowledges that she was visibly intoxicated? It doesn't make sense to me.

Second, to me, it seems strange that JR makes such a point of saying that he was concerned enough to checked to make sure she would be ok to get home. Why not walk her home? Or call a cab? In the time that he was with lauren in the apartment, he could have easily walked her home and made it back to his apartment, or he could have called a cab, its not like he was saving time by having her walk home alone.

Personally, I'm just perplexed about his details in general. He could have said that Lauren came over, was clearly drunk and then left to go to someone else's house. He specifically said that he allowed her to leave after the sobriety test. That seems like he's putting himself in the middle of things even more than necessary. It just doesn't add up to me. His statement is contradictory and puts him in the spotlight... Is that his choice? Did someone tell him to say that? Is it part of a group decision? Or is it partially or entirely the truth?

 

[sammi89]

Personally, I'm just perplexed about his details in general. He could have said that Lauren came over, was clearly drunk and then left to go to someone else's house. He specifically said that he allowed her to leave after the sobriety test. That seems like he's putting himself in the middle of things even more than necessary. It just doesn't add up to me. His statement is contradictory and puts him in the spotlight... Is that his choice? Did someone tell him to say that? Is it part of a group decision? Or is it partially or entirely the truth?

Snipped by me for space & bolded by me.

I agree with this and just wanted to add that IMO, it's weird how MB would even bring LS over to JR's, like she's his responsibility or problem to deal with.

I know the media has printed that they were childhood friends, but the Spierers have said they were more like acquaintances. If it that is true, why would MB just assume JR should or would handle it? Wouldn't it have been easier for MB to just say, "I'm calling you a cab" then take the bruised, stumbling girl over to JR's and explain why he thinks JR should deal with it? What if JR had said it was CR/MB's issue? Even if they were childhood friends, I'm not sure that MB would know that, so his assumption that JR should or would deal with it is kind of odd, IMO. And if MB did know know that they were childhood friends, why would MB assume JR would want to deal with LS when JR had guests of his own over?

But according to the stories, JR did decide to deal with LS. Why? I think I would ask the same questions holly raised for his sobriety test statement for his initial decision to deal with LS too.

Is that his choice? Did someone tell him to say that? Is it part of a group decision? Or is it partially or entirely the truth?

 

[AbbeyR]

I agree with this and just wanted to add that IMO, it's weird how MB would even bring LS over to JR's, like she's his responsibility or problem to deal with.

I know the media has printed that they were childhood friends, but the Spierers have said they were more like acquaintances. If it that is true, why would MB just assume JR should or would handle it? Wouldn't it have been easier for MB to just say, "I'm calling you a cab" then take the bruised, stumbling girl over to JR's and explain why he thinks JR should deal with it? What if JR had said it was CR/MB's issue? Even if they were childhood friends, I'm not sure that MB would know that, so his assumption that JR should or would deal with it is kind of odd, IMO. And if MB did know know that they were childhood friends, why would MB assume JR would want to deal with LS when JR had guests of his own over?

But according to the stories, JR did decide to deal with LS. Why? I think I would ask the same questions holly raised for his sobriety test statement for his initial decision to deal with LS too.

(BBM) Yes, especially since according to MB himself, Lauren told him she wanted to go home. Good questions.

 

[holly18]

Snipped by me for space & bolded by me.

I agree with this and just wanted to add that IMO, it's weird how MB would even bring LS over to JR's, like she's his responsibility or problem to deal with.

I know the media has printed that they were childhood friends, but the Spierers have said they were more like acquaintances. If it that is true, why would MB just assume JR should or would handle it? Wouldn't it have been easier for MB to just say, "I'm calling you a cab" then take the bruised, stumbling girl over to JR's and explain why he thinks JR should deal with it? What if JR had said it was CR/MB's issue? Even if they were childhood friends, I'm not sure that MB would know that, so his assumption that JR should or would deal with it is kind of odd, IMO. And if MB did know know that they were childhood friends, why would MB assume JR would want to deal with LS when JR had guests of his own over?

But according to the stories, JR did decide to deal with LS. Why? I think I would ask the same questions holly raised for his sobriety test statement for his initial decision to deal with LS too.

ITA. The media is quick to label people as "long term friends" and stuff like that, but the Spierers have always seemed to be clear that she and JR had known each other for a while but weren't close. When I got to college there were a handful of people I'd been acquaintances with since I was a kid, but it was never a deep friendship. If I had ever been in trouble I don't think any of my friends (close or otherwise) would have thought to call/hand me off to one of these acquaintances. IMO it speaks more to whatever went on that night that JR is supposedly the one she was "given to"

 

[Ixchel13]

Thinking about it, I actually do believe that a couple frat parties I went to sometimes would designate someone as the "sober brother" and they would sort of check on everyone and intervene if someone wanted to continue drinking who clearly should stop and/or be sent home until a certain time (at mixers we generally had multiple sisters designated to drive home anyone that needed it as well) but it definitely wasn't common for me or my friends and I only graduated a few years ago. I believe it happens, but I am skeptical of JR's claim.

It just seems weird in context. Why administer some kind of walking test in the first place unless there was a reason to? If there was a reason to, why send her off into the night alone? Why make calls to other people to catch a ride but not a call a cab when none of them panned out? Why wasn't HT, friend of JR's and most likely in his phone, called?

the walking test would only be to avoid a PI ticket

 

[Ixchel13]

Right, if it is untrue, it doesn't matter. The point is whether or not it is possible that the story is true.. so I'm not really following your point?

JR says Lauren could walk without stumbling, and that he watched her walk to/ round the corner towards home.

There is no evidence that she actually made it to the corner or anyone to back up his story, and she was never seen again. So, is this story credible? Can one actually see someone walk to and round the corner from JR's in the dark? Does the sobriety story make any sense at all? Even if it did, is it possible, based on the reports we have of her condition that she could have 'passed' it and walked without stumbling, when multiple witnesses state that she couldn't walk on her own shortly before her arrival at 5 N?

If any/all of his story is not true, this obviously raises questions about whether or not Lauren actually left his apartment as he claims.

Questioning the conflicting and inconsistent stories of people who were last to see Lauren and who have been named Persons of Interest in her case is not exactly tunnel vision. It's logic. I don't see any assumptions of guilt - just questions and theories.

thing about it is, although most of the consensus is against it, it could be true. To deny it could never be true that she walked away, would be indeed tunnel vision.

 

[sammi89]

thing about it is, although most of the consensus is against it, it could be true. To deny it could never be true that she walked away, would be indeed tunnel vision.

Right, but here I think it is just people questioning whether or not they think JR's statements concerning what happened are true. Expressing skepticism doesn't mean that it couldn't be true after all.

 

[sammi89]

the walking test would only be to avoid a PI ticket

I'm not sure about this. I was under the impression the test was to make sure she could walk at least somewhat, not to avoid a PI ticket. If she were stopped by LE on the way home, I have very little doubt she would be in trouble. In addition to being visibly intoxicated, LS was not yet 21.

 

[Ixchel13]

ITA. The media is quick to label people as "long term friends" and stuff like that, but the Spierers have always seemed to be clear that she and JR had known each other for a while but weren't close. When I got to college there were a handful of people I'd been acquaintances with since I was a kid, but it was never a deep friendship. If I had ever been in trouble I don't think any of my friends (close or otherwise) would have thought to call/hand me off to one of these acquaintances. IMO it speaks more to whatever went on that night that JR is supposedly the one she was "given to"

I think we have to realize that we are not them, people do things differently, and humans often defy logic. What my friends would or would not have done does not apply to Lauren's case. JR is admitting that he was the last person to see Lauren, and that she walked away from his apt.
Now, if something else happened right after she left, involving others,
others that were in and out of the scenario all night, and those
people had something on him well that's a different story. I really believe that she walked away, but then on the way she was attacked and/or abducted by someone. If it wasn't random, and by now I'm thinking 50/50 chance it was; if it wasn't random, then it was someone JR feels close enough to cover for, which would, IMO, only point to out of town guest. I have dabbled with many theories for the sake of fairness, but random or out of town guest have always been the two logical theories IMO,
MOO. I don't think CR did it, I don't think she was gang raped by 5N POIs, and I don't believe it was OD and then disposal of her body from JR's apt.
I do believe she could have OD'd at 10th and College, someone there who had been involved in the night's revelries could have scooped her up
on her way home. If she then OD'd, someone, most likely a local, could have been called to help them. Both JR and DB had the kind of $$$ to make that happen. I think the last guy called was DB and it went something like this, "hey Lauren's on her way back to SW, could you step outside and help her out?" Next thing ya know, DB is saying he found Lauren deceased and she's now in the alley behind 5N. Then, they call JW. Because, IMO, most likely, she got whatever she took from JW. Why should she go elsewhere for drugs when he always takes care of her, as he told his parents? They tell him she OD'd on his klonopin. Or, JW originally dealt the klonopin to JR.
Look it up, folks. JW has a business a block away in MI, a block away from DB and JR's business. Why so cozy with POIs?

 

[holly18]

I think we have to realize that we are not them, people do things differently, and humans often defy logic. What my friends would or would not have done does not apply to Lauren's case. JR is admitting that he was the last person to see Lauren, and that she walked away from his apt.
Now, if something else happened right after she left, involving others,
others that were in and out of the scenario all night, and those
people had something on him well that's a different story. I really believe that she walked away, but then on the way she was attacked and/or abducted by someone. If it wasn't random, and by now I'm thinking 50/50 chance it was; if it wasn't random, then it was someone JR feels close enough to cover for, which would, IMO, only point to out of town guest. I have dabbled with many theories for the sake of fairness, but random or out of town guest have always been the two logical theories IMO,
MOO. I don't think CR did it, I don't think she was gang raped by 5N POIs, and I don't believe it was OD and then disposal of her body from JR's apt.
I do believe she could have OD'd at 10th and College, someone there who had been involved in the night's revelries could have scooped her up
on her way home. If she then OD'd, someone, most likely a local, could have been called to help them. Both JR and DB had the kind of $$$ to make that happen. I think the last guy called was DB and it went something like this, "hey Lauren's on her way back to SW, could you step outside and help her out?" Next thing ya know, DB is saying he found Lauren deceased and she's now in the alley behind 5N. Then, they call JW. Because, IMO, most likely, she got whatever she took from JW. Why should she go elsewhere for drugs when he always takes care of her, as he told his parents? They tell him she OD'd on his klonopin. Or, JW originally dealt the klonopin to JR.
Look it up, folks. JW has a business a block away in MI, a block away from DB and JR's business. Why so cozy with POIs?

So you don't think that LE can trace phone calls to either DB or JW? If those had been the calls that had been placed, don't you think that LE would have investigated? Business interactions that are visible to us aren't invisible to LE, I'm sure if there had been money that changed hands (or paid to set up a business) they would have noticed. I'm not saying JW wasn't involved, but I don't think this scenario makes sense. If JW was in cahoots with CR and JR, why bring his father to CR's apartment?

I don't buy JR's story, at all. I don't necessarily think that he's the one who came up with it, but a girl is taken to your apartment, bruised and visibly out of it, can't figure out how to place a phone call, and then a little bit later she's totally fine and passing a "sobriety test"? Not plausible, IMO. Once you get into the state Lauren was supposedly in (at the very least according to JR) you're not fine a short while later. Some people have suggested that doing a line of cocaine might have woken her up/made her more coherent, but in my experience (and the experience of people that I know) that is incorrect.

 

[holly18]

I'm not sure about this. I was under the impression the test was to make sure she could walk at least somewhat, not to avoid a PI ticket. If she were stopped by LE on the way home, I have very little doubt she would be in trouble. In addition to being visibly intoxicated, LS was not yet 21.

People here seem to go back and forth about what the sobriety test was meant to accomplish, my understanding has always been that it was JR testing flat out whether or not she could walk without falling. Not whether or not she was swaying, not whether or not she could recite the ABCs backwards. IMO it had nothing to do with police

 

[sammi89]

I think we have to realize that we are not them, people do things differently, and humans often defy logic. What my friends would or would not have done does not apply to Lauren's case. JR is admitting that he was the last person to see Lauren, and that she walked away from his apt.
Now, if something else happened right after she left, involving others,
others that were in and out of the scenario all night, and those
people had something on him well that's a different story. I really believe that she walked away, but then on the way she was attacked and/or abducted by someone. If it wasn't random, and by now I'm thinking 50/50 chance it was; if it wasn't random, then it was someone JR feels close enough to cover for, which would, IMO, only point to out of town guest. I have dabbled with many theories for the sake of fairness, but random or out of town guest have always been the two logical theories IMO,
MOO. I don't think CR did it, I don't think she was gang raped by 5N POIs, and I don't believe it was OD and then disposal of her body from JR's apt.
I do believe she could have OD'd at 10th and College, someone there who had been involved in the night's revelries could have scooped her up
on her way home. If she then OD'd, someone, most likely a local, could have been called to help them. Both JR and DB had the kind of $$$ to make that happen. I think the last guy called was DB and it went something like this, "hey Lauren's on her way back to SW, could you step outside and help her out?" Next thing ya know, DB is saying he found Lauren deceased and she's now in the alley behind 5N. Then, they call JW. Because, IMO, most likely, she got whatever she took from JW. Why should she go elsewhere for drugs when he always takes care of her, as he told his parents? They tell him she OD'd on his klonopin. Or, JW originally dealt the klonopin to JR.
Look it up, folks. JW has a business a block away in MI, a block away from DB and JR's business. Why so cozy with POIs?

I do agree that people often do things that don't make sense, especially when drugs/drinking are involved. However, it's just human nature to try to apply our own experiences to things to make sense out of them.

If the POIs aren't involved, I also lean toward random abduction. If LS managed to actually leave, and given the descriptions known to the public, that's a big if, she was very vulnerable and would be an easy target for a sexual predator.

I'm not sure I follow why you think JW would have dealt because he took care of her though. I think it would be just as easy to assume that because he took care of her, he would not approve of her using drugs. I also agree with holly's point - if JW were in cahoots, why draw attention to others involved by confronting them with his dad and also threatening JR at a later party?

According to imkeylime's article link, DB was supposedly sleeping at JR's. If they caught the altercation at Smallwood on tape, I hope LE would be able to verify if DB was at Smallwood versus 5N where he allegedly was.

The article below (from a local MI newspaper) mentions DB sleeping at JR's when LS arrived. Unless he was passed out like CR claims to have been, I'd think he would have awakened when LS arrived or at least heard something. I find it interesting that both CR and DB were allegedly sleeping while MB and JR dealt with the situation at hand. JMO.

Here's the link:

http://www.macombdaily.com/article/M...WS01/130819496

 

[Ixchel13]

I do agree that people often do things that don't make sense, especially when drugs/drinking are involved. However, it's just human nature to try to apply our own experiences to things to make sense out of them.
If the POIs aren't involved, I also lean toward random abduction. If LS managed to actually leave, and given the descriptions known to the public, that's a big if, she was very vulnerable and would be an easy target for a sexual predator.

I'm not sure I follow why you think JW would have dealt because he took care of her though. I think it would be just as easy to assume that because he took care of her, he would not approve of her using drugs. I also agree with holly's point - if JW were in cahoots, why draw attention to others involved by confronting them with his dad and also threatening JR at a later party?

According to imkeylime's article link, DB was supposedly sleeping at JR's. If they caught the altercation at Smallwood on tape, I hope LE would be able to verify if DB was at Smallwood versus 5N where he allegedly was.

BBM we can do that, I do that, but does that make it true or even possibly true? We have evidence that Lauren was intoxicated and injured. As hard as it is to type, we don't have ANY evidence that the POIs did anything except not exercise duty of care. In that they will always be guilty, guilty, guilty and caused her disappearance.
Everything else is pure speculation at this point. And, IMO, people shouldn't
disagree too vehemently to any theory that is plausible. We know what the POIs are saying, but we have no idea what really happened. IMO, JMO, MOO,
we will find out and it will surprise us.
Doubting Thomas has done some very fine sleuthing and uncovered the POIs working together, or very close to each other in MI, including JW! I noticed that no one addressed this part of my post. Now why would JW, a POI himself, and hasn't been cleared, be working on the same block up in MI, JR and DB country, next to JR and DB's biz? Last we heard, he was traumatized
up in NY state.

 

[Mahouston69]

BBM we can do that, I do that, but does that make it true or even possibly true? We have evidence that Lauren was intoxicated and injured. As hard as it is to type, we don't have ANY evidence that the POIs did anything except not exercise duty of care. In that they will always be guilty, guilty, guilty and caused her disappearance.
Everything else is pure speculation at this point. And, IMO, people shouldn't
disagree too vehemently to any theory that is plausible. We know what the POIs are saying, but we have no idea what really happened. IMO, JMO, MOO,
we will find out and it will surprise us.
Doubting Thomas has done some very fine sleuthing and uncovered the POIs working together, or very close to each other in MI, including JW! I noticed that no one addressed this part of my post. Now why would JW, a POI himself, and hasn't been cleared, be working on the same block up in MI, JR and DB country, next to JR and DB's biz? Last we heard, he was traumatized
up in NY state.

I've swayed all over the place but JW and JR were frat brothers right? I cannot make myself believe JW didn't contact LS or know what she was up to all night in the condition she was in. I thought early on and continue to think the other call JR or LS made was to JW who was really unhappy, angry and had enough but because he or JR gave her the alcohol, drugs, opportunity to be in harms way they stuck together, I think JW came and got her and it went bad from there. I do think JR watched her walk away....with JW but all the "details" usually are unnecessary or fabricated and fill in the gaps of the unspoken truth.

The attacking CR the next morning...who can't remember, was probably to publicly throw guilt away from JR and JW. It wasn't done privately and relayed which would make it more believable for me. The threatening JR..in public...to throw guilt away from what really happened. These boys watch tv, movies, if each one throws suspicion or points the finger at another, OR they all purposely try to look guilty...how do you prove who is guilty?

Always start at the closest, simplest explanation and move outward. JW has never been cleared and his parents attack on LS leads me even more towards JW as a suspect as he could have confided in his parents with a story of it was "her fault" and if the truth comes out now, my life will be ruined over her inability to control herself.

IMO

 

[AbbeyR]

I thought early on and continue to think the other call JR or LS made was to JW who was really unhappy, angry and had enough but because he or JR gave her the alcohol, drugs, opportunity to be in harms way they stuck together, I think JW came and got her and it went bad from there. I do think JR watched her walk away....with JW but all the "details" usually are unnecessary or fabricated and fill in the gaps of the unspoken truth.<Snipped for space>

I still wouldn't be surprised if news about the altercation at Smallwood got back to JW at some point that night. But the PI's have said that the other call was to someone at Smallwood who they were watching the game with earlier. The reports also say JW was at his own apt., not Smallwood.

I think if there was evidence that JR had contacted JW, the investigation would have looked a lot different. JMO Then again, I'm sure there is a lot that is known by LE and the investigators that we don't know.

 

[Mahouston69]

I still wouldn't be surprised news about the altercation at Smallwood got back to JW at some point that night. But the PI's have said that the other call was to someone at Smallwood who they were watching the game with earlier. The reports also say JW was at his own apt., not Smallwood.

I think if there was evidence that JR had contacted JW, the investigation would have looked a lot different. JMO

I think technology had a hand in hiding who was contacted and how. I think JR used his iPod for messenger, Facebook, text apps, Skype or FaceTime to call. I think he was honest about Lauren mistaking it for her phone after seeing or hearing him use it. I don't know if I have a lot of faith in the local LE investigation in that regard. I think they possibly have overlooked a lot of possible info. I bet JR's iPod was never investigated as I am sure his phone was. JW has said he continued to call her phone. I don't think he gave up since he "always had to take care of her". I think he did.

 

[AbbeyR]

I think technology had a hand in hiding who was contacted and how. I think JR used his iPod for messenger, Facebook, text apps, Skype or FaceTime to call.

Good point, and you're right, I'm sure this could have been overlooked, especially since it seems LE had limited access to JR since he left town and hired Voyles right away.

I have a hard time imagining a conspiracy involving the guys at 5 N AND JW though.

 

[sammi89]

BBM we can do that, I do that, but does that make it true or even possibly true? We have evidence that Lauren was intoxicated and injured. As hard as it is to type, we don't have ANY evidence that the POIs did anything except not exercise duty of care. In that they will always be guilty, guilty, guilty and caused her disappearance.
Everything else is pure speculation at this point. And, IMO, people shouldn't
disagree too vehemently to any theory that is plausible. We know what the POIs are saying, but we have no idea what really happened. IMO, JMO, MOO,
we will find out and it will surprise us.

Of course it doesn't make it true. I think people just use their experiences to help explain why they think something is suspicious or odd, or that it actually does make sense to them.

Doubting Thomas has done some very fine sleuthing and uncovered the POIs working together, or very close to each other in MI, including JW! I noticed that no one addressed this part of my post. Now why would JW, a POI himself, and hasn't been cleared, be working on the same block up in MI, JR and DB country, next to JR and DB's biz? Last we heard, he was traumatized
up in NY state.

I must have missed that post. Do you know where he posted that? I had actually thought JW was working for what I always thought was a family company. His linkedin profile says he got a new job this year though, but his new job's contact info lists addresses in NY, IL, & MD, but not MI.

 

[Mahouston69]

Good point, and you're right, I'm sure this could have been overlooked, especially since it seems LE had limited access to JR since he left town and hired Voyles right away.

I have a hard time imagining a conspiracy involving the guys at 5 N AND JW though.

What if it was only a conspiracy between JR and JW?

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