IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[Ixchel13]

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/sto...o-in-the-lauren-spierer-case-then-and-now.sto

DR came forward, talked to the Spierers extensively, and passed a polygraph administered by the FBI. He didn't have to do these things, so I consider that voluntary.

The Spierers have said only one person has come forward voluntarily. I think it is him for the above reasons and because they are trying to keep private some evidence, maybe DR was asked to keep whatever information he gave private?

If I'm recalling correctly, he participated in the searches early on and I believe posted some things asking for people to help with the searches on twitter? I have yet to see anything from DR blaming LS. I do agree that 5N, HT, and JW's parents have publicly made comments blaming LS herself, but I don't recall DR having done so?

voluntarily...did he seek them out, or come in willingly when asked? Let's
see, he knew Lauren was mixing drugs and alcohol coz he did klonopin.
and drank with her. He was probably nearby the altercation, because he lives down the hall from Lauren, and that's where it started. Did it start from his apartment and ZO was there? He didn't try to help Lauren then, even though he knew why she was so out of it. Then, he doesn't pick up when they try to call him at 4:15 Sorry but IMO, nobody here gets a pass, even DR. Out of everyone, admittedly, he's the one with a shred of human decency.

 

[Kadence]

It's so frightening. Check out the recent ruling in the Maryville, MD ("Daisy"), case ... a misdemeanor (child endangerment) for leaving a 14-year-old girl intoxicated and incoherent on her front porch in 30-degree weather after allegedly giving her alcohol and raping her. The rape couldn't be proven, as it allegedly could have been "consensual" ... but her blood alcohol level was .13 seven hours later. The girl had a friend (assaulted by another boy) who backed her story. But so did the boy.

Also, my worst scenario is that more than one POI could have been involved in a sexual assault involving LS. It's so terrible to conceive of, but it does happen. That would certainly be a reason they would cover for each other.

It does seem very plausible that this is the very reason for everyone covering for everyone, it's not the drugs, it's the sexual assault. I do also believe that Lauren could have been roofied to make it "easier" for CR, since he wanted to be with her but maybe she just wasn't into him other than as a friend and he took advantage of her. Then maybe others did the same. That breaks my heart but imkeylime, as you said, it does happen, more often sadly than it seems could be believable.

As to the drinking age, I don't know what the answer is but something has to change because binge drinking is rampant and killing our youth.

 

[mfunky]

voluntarily...did he seek them out, or come in willingly when asked? Let's
see, he knew Lauren was mixing drugs and alcohol coz he did klonopin.
and drank with her. He was probably nearby the altercation, because he lives down the hall from Lauren, and that's where it started. Did it start from his apartment and ZO was there? He didn't try to help Lauren then, even though he knew why she was so out of it. Then, he doesn't pick up when they try to call him at 4:15 Sorry but IMO, nobody here gets a pass, even DR. Out of everyone, admittedly, he's the one with a shred of human decency.

While I'm with you in regards to DR being aware of the whole mixing alcohol and drugs thing....

Just because the altercation started down the hall from his apartment doesn't mean he actually knew it was going on. There was an argument in the hallway barely one apartment away from me the other day and I didn't know it was going on until I stepped in the hallway. How would he know about it unless he personally witnessed it? (which the PI never even mentioned).

Additionally, there is a strong possibility that like majority of people, he was sleeping when receiving that call at 4:15am.

DR went forward with the information he knew, and did what LE requested (took a poly). He also talked with the Spierer's and helped search for her. IMO, if JR and CR did the same, we wouldn't be wondering what happened to LS two and a half years later.

 

[kpeacock]

Hi all, new poster but I've been following along for the past few months. Bloomington resident (moved here a few months after LS disappeared.) I actually became very interested in the details after viewing the FB page "we want the truth."

Since reading about the parent's request to seal some evidence, I've wondered if part of their motivation could be the internet hysteria, particularly on that page. WS seems to be a place for genuine interest and intelligent theorizing, while that specific FB group seems to be a modern day witch-hunt. I don't sympathize with certain POIs involved, and their actions and motives are certainly questionable (to say the least) but I do feel for anyone who is actually innocent and a target for the moderators and posters on that page (whoever that might be.)

I'm sure these two groups overlap. Has anyone else wondered whether that FB group could actually be hurting the investigation by endlessly regurgitating aggressive speculation in a very public forum? Try posting one legitimate comment that a moderator doesn't agree with - instant pile on of heightened emotional speculation, enough to where reasonable conversation can't exist. I get that their intention is to not let the story die and to pressure the POIs to talk, but I think it actually creates an atmosphere where keeping their mouths shut seems like a better option. I also wonder if some of the posters couldn't actually be taken to task for slander. Thoughts?

 

[Kadence]

Hi all, new poster but I've been following along for the past few months. Bloomington resident (moved here a few months after LS disappeared.) I actually became very interested in the details after viewing the FB page "we want the truth."

Since reading about the parent's request to seal some evidence, I've wondered if part of their motivation could be the internet hysteria, particularly on that page. WS seems to be a place for genuine interest and intelligent theorizing, while that specific FB group seems to be a modern day witch-hunt. I don't sympathize with certain POIs involved, and their actions and motives are certainly questionable (to say the least) but I do feel for anyone who is actually innocent and a target for the moderators and posters on that page (whoever that might be.)

I'm sure these two groups overlap. Has anyone else wondered whether that FB group could actually be hurting the investigation by endlessly regurgitating aggressive speculation in a very public forum? Try posting one legitimate comment that a moderator doesn't agree with - instant pile on of heightened emotional speculation, enough to where reasonable conversation can't exist. I get that their intention is to not let the story die and to pressure the POIs to talk, but I think it actually creates an atmosphere where keeping their mouths shut seems like a better option. I also wonder if some of the posters couldn't actually be taken to task for slander. Thoughts?

Welcome kpeacock!!! Happy to have you join us! I'm not familiar with this FB page, and don't think it's ever been mentioned here, can you share a link so I/we can check it out?

I think your thoughts are spot on, here on Websleuths, while we don't always agree, the thoughts and views of others are respected, and it actually opens up the arena for discussion and the vetting of ideas which is a good thing!

Again, welcome, you've found a great place to be!

 

[kpeacock]

Thanks, Kadence! Here's the group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/203764669685648/

It's been interestingly quieter than usual there since the recent announcement of the Spierer's request for sealed information.

 

[imkeylime]

Hi all, new poster but I've been following along for the past few months. Bloomington resident (moved here a few months after LS disappeared.) I actually became very interested in the details after viewing the FB page "we want the truth."

Since reading about the parent's request to seal some evidence, I've wondered if part of their motivation could be the internet hysteria, particularly on that page. WS seems to be a place for genuine interest and intelligent theorizing, while that specific FB group seems to be a modern day witch-hunt. I don't sympathize with certain POIs involved, and their actions and motives are certainly questionable (to say the least) but I do feel for anyone who is actually innocent and a target for the moderators and posters on that page (whoever that might be.)

I'm sure these two groups overlap. Has anyone else wondered whether that FB group could actually be hurting the investigation by endlessly regurgitating aggressive speculation in a very public forum? Try posting one legitimate comment that a moderator doesn't agree with - instant pile on of heightened emotional speculation, enough to where reasonable conversation can't exist. I get that their intention is to not let the story die and to pressure the POIs to talk, but I think it actually creates an atmosphere where keeping their mouths shut seems like a better option. I also wonder if some of the posters couldn't actually be taken to task for slander. Thoughts?

Welcome, kpeacock ... glad you've joined us. I'm not aware of the other group, either ... this is such a nice, respectful place that I really don't look elsewhere. That said, there's definitely a danger when the public or the media stirs the pot to the point where a witch hunt occurs. I saw that in Michigan during the '80s, at the height of the Oakland County Child Killer case. There was no internet then, of course, but even without it, unsubstantiated information made the rounds. That can happen with highly charged cases, particularly cold ones. OTOH, the media and public have kept that case alive for more than 30 years, which I'm thankful for, as I still hope for closure for the families.

 

[AbbeyR]

Welcome Kpeacock!

I had a look at the site you posted - it didn't seem much different than the speculation here? I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about people who have been named Persons of Interest. That said, I didn't read back very far (gave up after too many posts about the photoshopped white truck!).

So what are your thoughts on this case? We could use a fresh perspective!

 

[Kadence]

Thanks, Kadence! Here's the group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/203764669685648/

It's been interestingly quieter than usual there since the recent announcement of the Spierer's request for sealed information.

Thanks kpeacock! Interesting FB page with many dedicated to finding Lauren, just like here

I did see an interesting quote on that page which I will share, it really spoke volumes to me in regard to Lauren's case and is most apropos (or if you're feeling Frenchy - à propos!):

"The hottest place in hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of moral conflict."- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Well said and I hope well read.

I'm going to look around a little more on the page you shared. The white truck discussion just never seems to go away, they said it was cleared, if so, then why does it keep coming up? Is there a reason for that? It's intriguing if nothing else.

Thanks and, again, welcome! We look forward to your thoughts about Lauren!

 

[sammi89]

Thanks, Kadence! Here's the group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/203764669685648/

It's been interestingly quieter than usual there since the recent announcement of the Spierer's request for sealed information.

Interesting. I hadn't seen this before. I also don't think it is much different than here though, except less regulated lol.

I've always sort of dismissed the white truck after it was cleared, although I totally get why some people are hung up on it still. I noticed in one of the comments on the white truck someone said it looked like a blanket or sleeping bag covering her up, and I swear I remember awhile ago another person also brought up transporting her using a sleeping bag.

Again, I've sort of moved away from the white truck because it was cleared, but even the best of us mess up sometimes so who knows. I've always been much more concerned about possibly missing her at the landfill.

I doubt anyone knows these for sure, but why did LE hold off on the landfill search for so long? Costs? Did they only search it because of public pressure, or was there a credible tip (and considering the costs, how credible would a tip have to be to search the landfill)? Was the search completed before the POIs returned to Bloomington or after? It was always surprising to me that they all returned, but I can imagine that if any of the named POI are actually involved, it appears less suspicious to return and they would feel better about returning if they knew the area she was in had been searched and nothing had been found.

While I'm thinking about it, someone on the fbook group posted about CR and/or CR's lawyer's original story that LS assisted CR back to 5N, which has always bother me. As that poster pointed out a) did CR remember her taking him home then? b) was this purely from his lawyer and if so, who told him other than CR? I am skeptical that an experienced lawyer would characterize the situation as LS helping CR home in a missing person case in which your client is a POI with a romantic interest and one of the last people with her. I just don't see an experienced lawyer characterizing a situation that might not match up with the facts based on what little information he must have had at that point considering CR had amnesia lol. It would have been much simpler to simply state that they were walked back together after a night out and not include the "assisting" bit.

Also, how did MB know CR was the one who got sick? He wasn't home when they arrived, unless it happened after MB got back. You would think that CR would have time to get himself to the bathroom at that point, though. Otherwise, MB is only going off of the word of LS or CR. That means CR would have had to tell him then before his amnesia kicked in or LS suddenly decided to start talking when she couldn't even say "I'm fine" earlier (if she really was). I'm also curious why it was that LS did not speak to either ZO & co or the witness on the way back to 5N. Was she doing anything like laughing (or anything else someone inebriated might be doing) or was she just that out of it? What was her speech like when talking to MB and JR? It's one thing if she was inebriated, stumbling, laughing, etc. but quite another when she can't form words, struggles to put one foot in front of the other, and slams her head imo. If her condition was on the more severe side, it's hard to reconcile MB and JR's story of her wanting to party more, walk home alone instead of taking up on an offer to sleep it off there, etc.


Here's to hoping that the Spierers do have something otherwise unknown that might scare at least one of them into trying to cut a deal.

 

[imkeylime]

... Also, how did MB know CR was the one who got sick? He wasn't home when they arrived, unless it happened after MB got back. You would think that CR would have time to get himself to the bathroom at that point, though. Otherwise, MB is only going off of the word of LS or CR. That means CR would have had to tell him then before his amnesia kicked in or LS suddenly decided to start talking when she couldn't even say "I'm fine" earlier (if she really was). I'm also curious why it was that LS did not speak to either ZO & co or the witness on the way back to 5N. Was she doing anything like laughing (or anything else someone inebriated might be doing) or was she just that out of it? What was her speech like when talking to MB and JR? It's one thing if she was inebriated, stumbling, laughing, etc. but quite another when she can't form words, struggles to put one foot in front of the other, and slams her head imo. If her condition was on the more severe side, it's hard to reconcile MB and JR's story of her wanting to party more, walk home alone instead of taking up on an offer to sleep it off there, etc. ...

Hmmm .. that's an interesting question ... when did CR's alleged amnesia begin? If he woke up with it, he might have been able to tell MB more than he realized before falling asleep. I personally can buy that he woke up foggy from alcohol/whatever use and being hit. (I don't buy total amnesia.) But he was able to talk en route to 5N, as he told a woman who inquired about LS that she was with him (my paraphrase ... can anyone find this?). So he apparently knew what was happening at that time.

Here's what his attorney said:

"Bloomington attorney Carl Salzmann is currently representing Rossman and has issued several statements about the altercation from the evening. He claims his client suffered memory loss due to the blow. 'When he woke up the next morning, his jaw was considerably sore. Bruises on his face. His clock got cleaned,' Salzmann said in June."

Does that mean he woke up amnesiac? I'm going to give CR a small benefit of doubt here and consider that he could have had a concussion of some sort, since I can't prove otherwise. But even so ... My son recently had a concussion after an accident. He's out of the hospital and doing good ... and remembers everything. Obviously all cases are different. But in his case, he knew what happened immediately afterward and knows what happened now. There was a point in the hospital where he was foggy. IDK if that's common with concussion victims. But since CR never bothered to take himself (or LS!) to the hospital, we'll never know if he actually had a head injury.

What interests me most about when CR claims amnesia is the situation it puts MB in. We've discussed MB's changing story ... and I wonder if that's one reason for it. If he knows what CR told him but then claims to have forgotten, it puts him in the situation where he might have to choose to tell the truth or lie. I still think MB is the link here. And I think he chose to lie, which is why his story was so ever-changing. JMO.

 

[AbbeyR]

Here's another quote from Corey Rossman's lawyer:

"At Smallwood, someone confronted them," said his lawyer, former Monroe County (Ind.) District Attorney Carl Salzmann.

"He got punched in the face. He has no memory of that, or of the 15 minutes leading to that moment," Salzmann said. "The first memory he has is the next morning when he wakes up in his bed, and that's corroborated by several people."

Salzmann said Thursday that Rossman was punched at least once and possibly twice, based on the bruising to his face. Despite his claim of memory loss, Rossman still has not been checked by a doctor, the lawyer said.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-09-missing-indiana-student_n.htm

BBM. So, I'm assuming this means he told several people (including MB) that he couldn't remember anything from the whole night. At least, that was the story in June 2011.

 

[imkeylime]

Here's another quote from Corey Rossman's lawyer:



http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-09-missing-indiana-student_n.htm

BBM. So, I'm assuming this means he told several people (including MB) that he couldn't remember anything from the whole night. At least, that was the story in June 2011.

Well, that's convenient, isn't it? Maybe he'll remember more years from now. Wishful thinking on my part, I realize. It's all so frustrating ...

 

[AbbeyR]

What interests me most about when CR claims amnesia is the situation it puts MB in. We've discussed MB's changing story ... and I wonder if that's one reason for it. If he knows what CR told him but then claims to have forgotten, it puts him in the situation where he might have to choose to tell the truth or lie. I still think MB is the link here. And I think he chose to lie, which is why his story was so ever-changing. JMO.

Yes, this is a key issue I think. Originally MB was the sober alibi who could vouch for Corey getting home with Lauren, the two not being alone together, and Lauren being capable of leaving on her own and going to JR's. I always think of the neighbor witness recounting a conversation with MB and saying "And that was the last time MB and CR saw Lauren"

Based on the more recent accounts from the Private investigators, it seems pretty much everything in that story has fallen apart.

 

[monkey222]

Makes sense that CR would not go to Physician to get head injury/amnesia checked out as blood tests, labs may be part of work up upon questioning of events leading to injury. Why risk finding illegal substances in system. He had prior law brushes, not good for his resume. :banghead:

 

[imkeylime]

Makes sense that CR would not go to Physician to get head injury/amnesia checked out as blood tests, labs may be part of work up upon questioning of events leading to injury. Why risk finding illegal substances in system. He had prior law brushes, not good for his resume. :banghead:

I can see that ... but to digress, if he really had amnesia would he even be that nervous about the night's events, since he couldn't remember them? My guess is still that yes, he had an injury but not necessarily amnesia. If I thought I had a serious head injury, I think (hope?) I'd get it checked out regardless of possible lab results that might or might not be reported.

IMO, the point you make may be even more relevant in terms of LS, unfortunately. Maybe CR and company knew what would be found in her system and where it came from if she was rushed to emergency. Just a thought ...

 

[doubtingthomas]

I was reading through some prior post and the discussions about the dumpster and searching the landfill. I think using the dumpster behind 5N would have been to risky for them but another thought came to me. Why not drive up to Martinsville and use a dumpster there. There would have been plenty of time to drive there and back. Does anyone know if Martinsville uses the same landfill as Btown? Would the dumpsters there have been checked? Just thinking out loud.

 

[imkeylime]

I was reading through some prior post and the discussions about the dumpster and searching the landfill. I think using the dumpster behind 5N would have been to risky for them but another thought came to me. Why not drive up to Martinsville and use a dumpster there. There would have been plenty of time to drive there and back. Does anyone know if Martinsville uses the same landfill as Btown? Would the dumpsters there have been checked? Just thinking out loud.

That's a useful thought. I've also wondered if the construction dumpsters were checked and how often they were dumped. If it wasn't daily, there would have been odor. The same applies to Martinsville, I suppose. But there is also garbage odor, so who knows? And it would also depend on the schedule and, as you said, the landfill destination. Maybe someone from the area knows?

 

[Ros]

Although I do think that the stories from the guys at 5N are fishy and do not fit together, I still wonder if she might have crossed College and continued east for some reason. Would she have been seen on any cameras in that direction?

 

[Ixchel13]

Although I do think that the stories from the guys at 5N are fishy and do not fit together, I still wonder if she might have crossed College and continued east for some reason. Would she have been seen on any cameras in that direction?

If she wanted to try to go to JW's, she would cross the intersection keep going straight for a few blocks then turn right for 2 blocks. The only camera at the 11th and College intersection points to the Amethyst House right there on the
southeast corner, but the camera doesn't point at the sidewalk IMO.

I've really tried to totally focus on the 5N POIs and their out-of-town guests,
but the idea that it was someone else just won't go away for me. When we say random perp, for some people tend to respond as if it means someone out of the blue, at the very last minute, decides to do something totally random and abduct and kill a woman who had a window of 15 minutes
of being alone and helpless.

Lauren, for whatever reason, be it her own excesses, or someone slipping her a rufie, needed help that night and everyone let her down in some way, and it seems, for individual reasons.

I feel very strongly that she left JR's. But that doesn't mean any of these people couldn't have doubled back and harmed her.

It also means if she was headed south, she would immediately be passing 10th and College, home to the people who had just punched out CR. 10th and C is known for wild parties and multiple drug busts have occurred there.
Any number of drunk, hopped up, strung out, etc, people would be leaving there, or coming home to there, at 4:15.

Back to the random thing, could have been premeditated to an extent,
maybe an escalation, someone who had seen her before; and it could be someone who has waited and waited until just the right moment when the right victim happens by at a time when the street was quiet. Maybe the perp(s) liked the idea of waiting until the timing was perfect. In that way, it doesn't seem so unlikely, in fact, if not Lauren, someone else just like her would come along , another hapless woman who was separated from her clique and couldn't defend herself.