IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[Ros]

She could have crossed College because she was disoriented, too. Also, the sidewalk where she allegedly rounded the corner was redone later that summer. I don't know what condition it was in when she left. The Waffle House would have been open. When did House Bar close?
We can't help but focus on 5N because we have some information about the people and events there. If something happened after she left there, we have even less information, except for the unconfirmed rumor about her ID being found near Walnut.

 

[Dixie811]

IF (BIG IF) Lauren did leave 5N on her own, I don't think we can count on her traveling any particular "logical" direction, regardless of where she thought she was going.

I say this just based on how disoriented she must have been if she was even conscious at that point -- for example if the mistaking iPod for JR's cell story is true, then it is an example of just how disoriented Lauren was.

 

[Btown]

I still wonder if she might have crossed College and continued east for some reason. Would she have been seen on any cameras in that direction?

If she wanted to try to go to JW's, she would cross the intersection keep going straight for a few blocks then turn right for 2 blocks. The only camera at the 11th and College intersection points to the Amethyst House

Its a dead end at the next street, (Walnut) with a parking lot at office buildings. She could not have kept going East.
There were no cameras in that area at the time she went missing.

 

[Btown]

I've also wondered if the construction dumpsters were checked and how often they were dumped. Maybe someone from the area knows?

I checked the construction dumpster beside, (just North of Smallwood).

I don't recall seeing one at the new building just North of 5 North, but they were just working on the stone facade at the time, so I didn't think much of not seeing a dumpster.

 

[Ixchel13]

Its a dead end at the next street, (Walnut) with a parking lot at office buildings. She could not have kept going East.
There were no cameras in that area at the time she went missing.

I think you must know there's all kinds of ways to zig zag through, I did it with my son to see if she could get through.

Ros, House Bar is one of the best kept after hours secrets among the service
industry. IOW, place doesn't have to close at regular hours, because it doesn't have a liquor license!! I know, I know, sounds impossible but I checked.
At the time of Lauren's disappearance, the patio area was known to stay open
all night sometimes.

I found out about HB when I was mgr of a bar, and the bartenders kept giving last call early when we were busy, and I had to finally tell the owner on them to get them to quit running our clients out. Seems the employees wanted to go party at the HB, they had made their money and wanted to go get loaded there.

You can get to HB by going north on Walnut, or cut down an alley before you get to Walnut and the alley dead ends at the patio gate to HB. It's a pretty safe bet that people headed down that alley are not sober, and probably have cash on them, and if they don't have drugs on them when they arrive, they might have them on the way out. Junkies rehabbing at the Amethyst House
have a view of the entrance to that alley, just a few yards away.

The camera at the intersection points directly at the Amethyst House. Not blaming anyone there, or at the House Bar.

Bloomington has an entire criminal counter system of people who do nothing but prey on others for a living. That sounds simplistic, but there it is. I've seen
younger kids who do all kinds of petty thievery, lots of stolen bikes, invading parties to steal kegs, or anything not locked away. Tons of credit card theft
in all methods from stealing the card outright to charging things on the card when they hold it to run a tab. When students leave things behind, very rarely are they returned. Drug dealing, setting people up for robbery, it's all here. Not to say it isn't done everywhere, but Bloomington is not the place it used to be even ten years ago. It is beyond a doubt NOT SAFE to be alone after hours downtown whether you are male or female. Those who think that, these students who persist in thinking they are safe, are playing a deadly game. At that hour, when Lauren was out alone, if she was out alone, the odds of someone hurting her are not the huge odds that people here are stating. The odds of something bad happening to her are decidedly not in her favor and very likely to happen.

I love this town, but at that time of night it changes, morphs into a place where the people on the prowl are not the good citizens. Sure, there are
many, many good bartenders and waiters and bouncers, but seriously, if these students really knew how they were perceived by the bad ones, they would probably have a lot more house parties. They care perceived as a wad of cash and/or, a piece of meat to steal and devour. The vitriol that some of these seasoned employees reserve for these wealthier kids would shock some people, I mean they absolutely HATE these kids for no reason other than they were sitting in their section and wanted a drink. I had to break up a fight one night, a waitress who refused to serve a woman then added a tip to her charge card that was given to her by the bartender. The woman called me over to say she wouldn't pay the tip and why. the waitress came over while I was talking and threatened the girl. I clocked her out and told her to go sit down while I adjusted the tab. Next thing you know, this waitress was over there again and this time the girl got up and wasn't backing down, she was going to fight the waitress. sheesh. After it was over, I asked this waitress why she was attacking this girl when she wouldn't even wait on her to begin with and why she tried to cheat her. The hate, and jealousy and evil towards this customer just came spewing out and she didn't know this girl from adam.

So if someone was in trouble, not very likely many of these people would help them or come forward. Just calling it like I know it to be. If someone, and I know they are, is dealing rufies to people at these bars so they can rob and/or rape, even kill, no one is going to come forward until their own personal safety is at risk. But someone is doing it.

rant #101

 

[Btown]

I think you must know there's all kinds of ways to zig zag through, I did it with my son to see if she could get through.

You did that in broad daylight, sober, with a companion.

Drunk, drugged, alone, in the middle of the night? Not. Gonna. Happen.

The camera at the intersection points directly at the Amethyst House.

As I pointed out, there was no camera at the intersection when Lauren went missing, and I have [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140294"]posted the pics[/ame] that show that.

Bloomington has an entire criminal counter system of people who do nothing but prey on others for a living. ~respectfully snipped by btown~

Those elements exist in every town. Bloomington is not on the level that you are talking about. It is not the Detroit, Jersey, etc. your rant would indicate. Not. Even. Close.

Personally, I don't hesitate to walk around Bloomington downtown, uptown, on campus, alleys, etc. at 1-2-3-4 am. Unarmed, alone, inebriated or sober. Not a single issue in 50 years. Not even a fist fight. My children, (male and female), have done the same. No problem. None of my family, friends, or their family or anyone I personally know have had any issues in my lifetime. Ever. There are no gangs ruling the streets here, and for the most part the violent issues seem to be drunk/drugged students.

I'm one of those people your rant indicates that you don't seem to think exists. I've helped folks many times late at night, (male & female) in various levels of sobriety and trouble, and I've been helped by both student & townie, (male & female).

Since I know many of the bartenders in these parts, (some are my family), I'm aware of the good and bad that happens. If any of the folks I know found out a person was putting ruffies in drinks, you can be quite sure they would be on a stretcher in short order and BPD would follow close behind. So I politely disagree with your assessment on this issue too.

I do agree with you on one thing though. Someone around here has made a few young ladies meet an unhappy ending. IDK if that is what happened to Lauren or if it was the 5 North boys. I'm hoping the lawsuit helps clarify some things.

 

[Ixchel13]

You did that in broad daylight, sober, with a companion.

Drunk, drugged, alone, in the middle of the night? Not. Gonna. Happen.



As I pointed out, there was no camera at the intersection when Lauren went missing, and I have posted the pics that show that.



Those elements exist in every town. Bloomington is not on the level that you are talking about. It is not the Detroit, Jersey, etc. your rant would indicate. Not. Even. Close.

Personally, I don't hesitate to walk around Bloomington downtown, uptown, on campus, alleys, etc. at 1-2-3-4 am. Unarmed, alone, inebriated or sober. Not a single issue in 50 years. Not even a fist fight. My children, (male and female), have done the same. No problem. None of my family, friends, or their family or anyone I personally know have had any issues in my lifetime. Ever. There are no gangs ruling the streets here, and for the most part the violent issues seem to be drunk/drugged students.

I'm one of those people your rant indicates that you don't seem to think exists. I've helped folks many times late at night, (male & female) in various levels of sobriety and trouble, and I've been helped by both student & townie, (male & female).

Since I know many of the bartenders in these parts, (some are my family), I'm aware of the good and bad that happens. If any of the folks I know found out a person was putting ruffies in drinks, you can be quite sure they would be on a stretcher in short order and BPD would follow close behind. So I politely disagree with your assessment on this issue too.

I do agree with you on one thing though. Someone around here has made a few young ladies meet an unhappy ending. IDK if that is what happened to Lauren or if it was the 5 North boys. I'm hoping the lawsuit helps clarify some things.

BBM a few? So if you had a young daughter, you would tell her it is perfectly safe to be in the downtown district at 4 a.m. alone? Respectfully, you say you are aware of the good and bad that happens. All of it? I respectfully doubt that. Of course there are more good people than bad in Bloomington! But saying it's safe after hours alone? I'm not talking midnight here, I'm talking about after the bars are closed. Saying it's perfectly safe...you sound like one of the developers who encouraged the students to live smack in the middle of the bar district and convinced their parents through what basically amounts to propaganda that they were safe. A few young ladies who meet an "unhappy" ending is three too many. And I assume, respectfully, that by unhappy you mean dead. Not. Just. Unhappy.

 

[Btown]

BBM a few? So if you had a young daughter, you would tell her it is perfectly safe to be in the downtown district at 4 a.m. alone?

I do have a young daughter, and she has wandered around downtown alone at 4am. Multiple times. Perfectly safely. No problems.

Its not something I recommend she do, but what does an ol' fogey know. Young ladies know it all and won't listen to anyone once they're out of the house.

Sorry you think I sound like a developer, I'm not. Just letting people know that your experience is not the normal, that many many people in the same town have no bad experiences late at night here.

As for the unhappy part, I can't think of any that happened downtown, or uptown, or on Campus. Nor did they happen late at night. Jill Behrman for example happened during the day, and (if they got the right guy), happened out in Ellettsville. Crystal Grubb is another. That happened North of Bloomington on Hwy 37 according to reports I've read. I can think back to the worst one in '86 Ellen Sears Marks. That one happened on The Hill. Nobody knows what day, time, or the circumstances. There are others, but Lauren is the only one I can think of disappearing uptown late at night.

What about you?
Which ladies are you aware of that have disappeared, or been killed due to being downtown, uptown, or on Campus late at night?

 

[Ixchel13]

I do have a young daughter, and she has wandered around downtown alone at 4am. Multiple times. Perfectly safely. No problems.

Its not something I recommend she do, but what does an ol' fogey know. Young ladies know it all and won't listen to anyone once they're out of the house.

Sorry you think I sound like a developer, I'm not. Just letting people know that your experience is not the normal, that many many people in the same town have no bad experiences late at night here.

As for the unhappy part, I can't think of any that happened downtown, or uptown, or on Campus. Nor did they happen late at night. Jill Behrman for example happened during the day, and (if they got the right guy), happened out in Ellettsville. Crystal Grubb is another. That happened North of Bloomington on Hwy 37 according to reports I've read. I can think back to the worst one in '86 Ellen Sears Marks. That one happened on The Hill. Nobody knows what day, time, or the circumstances. There are others, but Lauren is the only one I can think of disappearing uptown late at night.

What about you?
Which ladies are you aware of that have disappeared, or been killed due to being downtown, uptown, or on Campus late at night?

ok, let's just assume your "unhappy" means rape. Now, are you going to sit there and say rapes are not reported in the downtown area, in the wee hours of the morning? And what about the numerous rapes that are not reported, or not even remembered in detail enough to report? I never said there weren't any good people that would help, these abound, but not in those wee hours.

Think of the steady flow of hundreds of thousands of dollars these kids are shelling out for booze and entertainment. Probably as much as the football games. Yet at football games, police cars are stationed here and there for crowd control. What would be the harm of an LE vehicle here and there, for the kids' protection late at night when the bars close? You talk about drunk and drugged students. Someone is selling them booze and drugs--townies.

I have a saying when people say I overreact: Everything's OK til it's not.
What I learned about Bloomington nightlife I learned from closing a busy downtown bar 4 or 5 nights a week incl. Fri. and Sat. for an entire summer.
Have you done that? First, you have to get all the drunks out and search the place. Then, check out the waiters and bartenders. Have thousands in cash and they know it. Now, be alone in the place another 45 min. while you balance the books and put the cash in the safe. Set the alarm and walk outside alone to your car at 4 a.m. Tell me you feel safe. I sure didn't,
always got a scary rush when I left.

I'm with most of us, her friends probably know what happened. But no one could really say it couldn't happen another way here.

 

[Btown]

In other words, zero individuals have disappeared or been killed downtown, uptown or on Campus by being out late at night, other than Lauren.

 

[Ixchel13]

In other words, zero individuals have disappeared or been killed downtown, uptown or on Campus by being out late at night, other than Lauren.

IOW, people have disappeared. let me go and look them up. but I don't want to get a time out for snarkiness so after that let it go.

March 10, 1977, (back in your day) Margaret Ann Hayes bought a pack of cigarettes at Caveat Emptor, alone at night, and was never seen again.

June, 2009, Frank Joseph Giza 111 was staying in the near downtown area with friends. He argued with them and left, and has never been seen again.

and Lauren makes "a few".

I mean it's nice to have pics of cameras but if they are not working, what's the point? You come on here and hint about a video that you were allowed to view because you're somehow in the know, but you don't get verified as an insider, so what is your motive? Just to let people know you know something they don't?

I appreciate your love of Bloomington, I have it too. But besides these 3 missing people, there have been knifings at these bars, and rapes and robberies.
Someone is selling rufies in these bars, plain and simple. And this is leading to what I call acquaintance rape/attempted rape. Your comment that most of the violence comes from drunk and drugged students is very telling. They are responsible for their own actions, but they are the customers of locals.
We sell them booze, we sell them drugs. Multi Millions worth a year. If "Atlas Shrugged" here and they all left, most of us would have to move away.
And that includes the milieu of attorneys that make most of their money defending these drunk/drugged students.

 

[Btown]

\March 10, 1977, (back in your day) Margaret Ann Hayes bought a pack of cigarettes at Caveat Emptor, alone at night, and was never seen again.

June, 2009, Frank Joseph Giza 111 was staying in the near downtown area with friends. He argued with them and left, and has never been seen again.
and Lauren makes "a few".

Margaret Ann Hayes is an acceptable example IMO, albeit from 37 Years ago.

Frank Gaza was last seen 50 miles outside of Bloomington playing guitar in the company of a couple of ladies, so I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on that one.

I mean it's nice to have pics of cameras but if they are not working, what's the point? You come on here and hint about a video that you were allowed to view because you're somehow in the know, but you don't get verified as an insider, so what is your motive? Just to let people know you know something they don't?

:facepalm: The point of the pictures in this conversation is that there was not a camera at 11th and College at the time Lauren disappeared.

You are of course aware that repetitive insinuations and allegations speaks about about the poster, not your fellow WebSleuther/townie, right? :twocents:

My point at the beginning of this conversation was:

1. Continuing east on 11th St. beyond Walnut is not a viable option IMO. :stop:
2. There was no camera at that intersection at the time. :naughty:
3. The town is nowhere near as bleak as the picture you painted in your rant. :hills:

It seems you have not been able to show either of those 3 points are incorrect.

My current hope is that the lawsuit will bring out more details of that night, which may allow all of us to make a better assessment about what happened to Lauren. Hopefully this will lead to finding her, and bring some measure of closure to her family and the town.

 

[bessie]

C'mon, you guys. Knock it off.

FWIW, I took a peek at our missing threads and cold case threads back to 1990. Not that every case is listed here, but we have a fair number. Nothing for Bloomington.

Also FWIW, it's always amazed me how two people can live in the very same town, even in the same area of town, and view it so differently. Nowhere is that more true than here in New Orleans. I used to get so bent out of shape listening to people describe a place that bore no resemblance to the city I know and love. It would make me furious. I mus tbe getting old because now I can blow it off. I realize that we just don't share the same pair of eyes. That's all there is to it.

 

[bx2]

2. There was no camera at that intersection at the time. :naughty:

I've had this same argument in the past, but fairly sure they are referring to the object visible at the top of the pole in your image here:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3766/img00184201106141729.jpg

Not sure what it is, maybe a light, but I didn't think it was a camera either.

Also, I've found it a tad curious that for as much speculation that has been placed on the area's surroundings, I've never heard a peep related to The Lofts on College, which is yet another densely packed apartment dwelling consisting of nearly all college kids. This would seemingly be another destination for travelers coming home from bars, 10th&C, or Smallwood parties. To my knowledge they had zero external cameras, but at least years ago did have some on the inside.

 

[Ixchel13]

Margaret Ann Hayes is an acceptable example IMO, albeit from 37 Years ago.

Frank Gaza was last seen 50 miles outside of Bloomington playing guitar in the company of a couple of ladies, so I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on that one.



:facepalm: The point of the pictures in this conversation is that there was not a camera at 11th and College at the time Lauren disappeared.

You are of course aware that repetitive insinuations and allegations speaks about about the poster, not your fellow WebSleuther/townie, right? :twocents:

My point at the beginning of this conversation was:

1. Continuing east on 11th St. beyond Walnut is not a viable option IMO. :stop:
2. There was no camera at that intersection at the time. :naughty:
3. The town is nowhere near as bleak as the picture you painted in your rant. :hills:

It seems you have not been able to show either of those 3 points are incorrect.

My current hope is that the lawsuit will bring out more details of that night, which may allow all of us to make a better assessment about what happened to Lauren. Hopefully this will lead to finding her, and bring some measure of closure to her family and the town.

this was never verified, it was someone thought they saw someone who looked like him, and never panned out. Guy is still missing iirc.

all of this is just too much for me to rebut. I hope Lauren is found soon and justice is served for her and her family can find peace.

 

[imkeylime]

... Also, I've found it a tad curious that for as much speculation that has been placed on the area's surroundings, I've never heard a peep related to The Lofts on College, which is yet another densely packed apartment dwelling consisting of nearly all college kids. This would seemingly be another destination for travelers coming home from bars, 10th&C, or Smallwood parties. To my knowledge they had zero external cameras, but at least years ago did have some on the inside.

I'm pretty firmly planted in the "POI's aren't telling the truth" camp, but I've entertained the thought that LS somehow left 5N and stumbled on someone nefarious on her way toward SW or even JW's. Although College wasn't her usual route, she could have just been putting one foot in front of the other at that point. I remember literally entering the wrong house during my partying years (awkward, to say the least). Going the wrong way would be easy ... or even approaching the wrong person for help.

It's also possible that the POI's really aren't telling the truth but that LS still left 5N on her own accord, I suppose. I'm not sure how that could have played out, but I suspect there are a few possible scenarios ...

 

[sammi89]

Although I'm firmly planted in the "POI's aren't telling the truth" camp, I've entertained the thought that LS somehow left 5N and stumbled on someone nefarious on her way toward SW or even JW's. Although College wasn't her usual route, she could have just been putting one foot in front of the other at that point. I remember literally entering the wrong house during my partying years (awkward, to say the least). Going the wrong way would be easy ... or even approaching the wrong person for help.

It's also possible that the POI's really aren't telling the truth but that LS still left 5N on her own accord, I suppose. I'm not sure how that could have played out, but I suspect there are a few possible scenarios ...

I've considered this as well. I still am skeptical about LS and her ability to really leave completely on her own, but if she had, that might mean that JR really is telling the truth. He's at least sat down with the Spierers right?

That wouldn't necessarily mean that LS didn't end up back at CR/MB's though, especially if it is true that JR couldn't actually see her round the corner and maybe embellished watching her off to place himself in a better light.

If she left though, that pretty much opens it up to anyone, imo. There's just so little information known publicly about who was still out at that hour to really speculate. I still am skeptical of JW following her, but if she was capable of leaving, maybe she did try to go to his place. If she just showed up in bad shape, do you think he would choose to not get help, even though he (probably) wasn't responsible for whatever had caused her to be in bad shape? On the other hand, maybe there was a confrontation, but do you think JW's roomies and/or neighbors wouldn't have heard or maybe didn't realize who was arguing?

I also have a hard time thinking that ZO & his buddies were waiting around for LS because whatever problem they had, it seemed to be with CR and not LS. I guess it is possible they might confront her looking for CR, but I don't think they had it out for LS herself.

 

[imkeylime]

... That wouldn't necessarily mean that LS didn't end up back at CR/MB's though, especially if it is true that JR couldn't actually see her round the corner and maybe embellished watching her off to place himself in a better light.

If she left though, that pretty much opens it up to anyone, imo. There's just so little information known publicly about who was still out at that hour to really speculate. I still am skeptical of JW following her, but if she was capable of leaving, maybe she did try to go to his place. If she just showed up in bad shape, do you think he would choose to not get help, even though he (probably) wasn't responsible for whatever had caused her to be in bad shape? On the other hand, maybe there was a confrontation, but do you think JW's roomies and/or neighbors wouldn't have heard or maybe didn't realize who was arguing?

I also have a hard time thinking that ZO & his buddies were waiting around for LS because whatever problem they had, it seemed to be with CR and not LS. I guess it is possible they might confront her looking for CR, but I don't think they had it out for LS herself.

Snipped by me. I've definitely thought about LS somehow leaving JR's, deciding she couldn't make it back to SW, and looping back to CR/MB's. Although it pains me to say so, I do believe she had enough interest in CR to follow him out of SW. She may have felt comfortable with him, for whatever reason. Or maybe she was worried about him after the hit. Also, maybe something happened at JR's that made her leave (assuming she was able to) and return to CR/MB's. IDK.

I personally don't see ZO and company waiting it out. And I'm not sure what to think about JW. I actually gave him little thought until the article where his parents attacked LS. They really seemed to be on the defensive. Also, his mother's comment about getting a private polygraph was weird, IMO ... something about wanting to know for sure, which makes me think she had doubt in the first place. ???

Re: confrontation with JW if she made it there. I can't imagine her being very loud ... and I can't imagine JW wanting to call attention to the situation. But let's say she did make it to JW's ... he wouldn't have necessarily been waiting up for her. She would have had to knock, since she apparently didn't have her keys on her. Unless she knew they left the door open or something? IDK ... I think it's a stretch.

 

[Ixchel13]

Snipped by me. I've definitely thought about LS somehow leaving JR's, deciding she couldn't make it back to SW, and looping back to CR/MB's. Although it pains me to say so, I do believe she had enough interest in CR to follow him out of SW. She may have felt comfortable with him, for whatever reason. Or maybe she was worried about him after the hit. Also, maybe something happened at JR's that made her leave (assuming she was able to) and return to CR/MB's. IDK.

I personally don't see ZO and company waiting it out. And I'm not sure what to think about JW. I actually gave him little thought until the article where his parents attacked LS. They really seemed to be on the defensive. Also, his mother's comment about getting a private polygraph was weird, IMO ... something about wanting to know for sure, which makes me think she had doubt in the first place. ???

Re: confrontation with JW if she made it there. I can't imagine her being very loud ... and I can't imagine JW wanting to call attention to the situation, unless he was extremely controlling or had a bad temper. But let's say she did make it to JW's ... he wouldn't have necessarily been waiting up for her. She would have had to knock or something, since she apparently didn't have her keys on her. Unless she knew they left the door open or something? IDK ... I think it's a stretch.

I agree with both of you that if, always big if, Lauren managed to leave, it puts everyone back in the scenario. And really it's not a stretch. If she was
up, or supposed to be up, why wouldn't others between the three or four parties going on also be up? People were circulating within these parties..
Certain people made sure they were said to be sleeping: DR, DB, CR, ZC,
JW. Others have never really said where they were: HT, ZO.That leaves JR and MB , even JR says he was going to bed, or maybe already in bed . So that leaves MB. Lauren could have reencountered any number of people either coming home to, or leaving to go home from, 10th and College. IDK just musing.
ZC's roommates, and JW's roommates, were also said to be asleep.

 

[Ros]

I do have a young daughter, and she has wandered around downtown alone at 4am. Multiple times. Perfectly safely. No problems.

Its not something I recommend she do, but what does an ol' fogey know. Young ladies know it all and won't listen to anyone once they're out of the house.

Sorry you think I sound like a developer, I'm not. Just letting people know that your experience is not the normal, that many many people in the same town have no bad experiences late at night here.

As for the unhappy part, I can't think of any that happened downtown, or uptown, or on Campus. Nor did they happen late at night. Jill Behrman for example happened during the day, and (if they got the right guy), happened out in Ellettsville. Crystal Grubb is another. That happened North of Bloomington on Hwy 37 according to reports I've read. I can think back to the worst one in '86 Ellen Sears Marks. That one happened on The Hill. Nobody knows what day, time, or the circumstances. There are others, but Lauren is the only one I can think of disappearing uptown late at night.

What about you?
Which ladies are you aware of that have disappeared, or been killed due to being downtown, uptown, or on Campus late at night?

Margaret Ann Hayes was last seen on 10 March 1977 at Caveat Emptor, when it was on Indiana Avenue (I think there's a Starbucks there now).

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/hayes_margaret.html

Sorry. I did not notice that someone had already mentioned her.