IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[imkeylime]

... IIRC, I think some people have considered whether he got her key to get evidence out of her room? I'm not sure what evidence would be in her room if it was a crime of passion though.

It would be interesting to see when JW started reaching out to people and what their responses were - did they give him a reason to freak out?

Related to people reaching out, I wonder if JR ever reached out to HT to see if LS made it back? I still think it is odd that out of everyone he could have called that night, HT wasn't one of them. Even if LS walked out, he could have sent a text saying,"By the way, LS is heading back. She doesn't have her phone and she is messed up/has a bruised face. Keep an eye out for her." Did he bother to text the next day even to ask if she made it back alright?

It doesn't necessarily mean anything but it stands out to me.

I also have been wondering about his reasoning for the two phone calls. JR claims he was looking for someone to give LS a ride home, but I wonder how well that actually holds up. He claims he knew DR was doing Klonopin with LS. Would he really be in a position to be driving? If the cops saw him and he was impaired, DR's probably looking at a DUI. I wonder if the other person JR called was also similarly impaired?

Snipped by me. I agree with the thought that he might have used the key to look for something in her room ... maybe the klonopin or something of that nature? While I'm not sold on JW being involved in anything more than keeping something hush, I'm willing to brainstorm almost anything at this point. I'll take a look back at the maps ...

You make a good point about JR calling DR. If what he says is true, he probably knew DR wouldn't be driving. I still think he called to find out how much or exactly what she took. JMO. Also, I agree it would have been *logical* for him to contact HT. Not much about this case seems logical, though, does it?

In addition, I have a really hard time reconciling JR making calls to find LS a ride and then letting her walk. This is where everything freezes for me. She had no shoes, no keys, a bruised face, and, to paraphrase JR, confused an I-pod for a cell phone. He made two calls to find her a ride. It was 4 in the morning. And then he watched her walk to the corner? Given the circumstances, why wouldn't he have walked with her? It doesn't add up.

 

[Ixchel13]

Good point. Did he or his father drive home or fly home? If they flew home, that would narrow the area and the time JW would have had to hide her, if involved. If they drove and she is somewhere between IN & NY, that means his dad would have to be involved and also increase the time to dispose and possible locations. Did JW take his car anywhere for service once back in NY? Did he return to IN with the same car? Would LE have someone follow the boys (JW, CR, JR, MB) on their way home if they were driving and if they suspected them? IDK if that is something they do given the distances, but then they could hopefully eliminate out of state disposals, unless it was a guest or a stranger not yet identified at the time so they wouldn't have known to keep an eye on them.

IIRC, I think some people have considered whether he got her key to get evidence out of her room? I'm not sure what evidence would be in her room if it was a crime of passion though.

It would be interesting to see when JW started reaching out to people and what their responses were - did they give him a reason to freak out?


Related to people reaching out, I wonder if JR ever reached out to HT to see if LS made it back? I still think it is odd that out of everyone he could have called that night, HT wasn't one of them. Even if LS walked out, he could have sent a text saying,"By the way, LS is heading back. She doesn't have her phone and she is messed up/has a bruised face. Keep an eye out for her." Did he bother to text the next day even to ask if she made it back alright?

It doesn't necessarily mean anything but it stands out to me.

I also have been wondering about his reasoning for the two phone calls. JR claims he was looking for someone to give LS a ride home, but I wonder how well that actually holds up. He claims he knew DR was doing Klonopin with LS. Would he really be in a position to be driving? If the cops saw him and he was impaired, DR's probably looking at a DUI. I wonder if the other person JR called was also similarly impaired?

BBM both this quote and your following scenarios are way different from your previous posts. Not in my wildest dreams would I think the dad would be involved in this way. But, something involving JR in conjunction with JW would be believable, if that's what this BBM post is about ^^

 

[sammi89]

Snipped by me. I agree with the thought that he might have used the key to look for something in her room ... maybe the klonopin or something of that nature? While I'm not sold on JW being involved in anything more than keeping something hush, I'm willing to brainstorm almost anything at this point. I'll take a look back at the maps ...

You make a good point about JR calling DR. If what he says is true, he probably knew DR wouldn't be driving. I still think he called to find out how much or exactly what she took. JMO. Also, I agree it would have been *logical* for him to contact HT. Not much about this case seems logical, though, does it?

In addition, I have a really hard time reconciling JR making calls to find LS a ride and then letting her walk. This is where everything freezes for me. She had no shoes, no keys, a bruised face, and, to paraphrase JR, confused an I-pod for a cell phone. He made two calls to find her a ride. It was 4 in the morning. And then he watched her walk to the corner? Given the circumstances, why wouldn't he have walked with her? It doesn't add up.

I definitely agree that very little appears to be logical based on the explanations known.

I agree. I actually am more surprised that they didn't call a cab. IMO, the only reason not to call a cab at that point is money and these aren't people that are necessarily going to be hung up on letting LS borrow a few bucks for a cab ride home. It wasn't far so it wouldn't be expensive. They wouldn't have had to leave the comfort of their apartment, so it would have been convenient for them. If they are going to take the time to call others, why not call someone who is guaranteed to answer and will definitely take her home?

 

[akh]

Snipped by me. What I mean is that he'd see that she couldn't have willingly DONE anything with CR. I suppose he could have been so controlling that he didn't like her to hang with other guys, but the fact that she went to Indy in the first place and allegedly partied at JR's the year before with HT doesn't suggest that to me. It would help to know more about their relationship, of course ...

Maybe she was growing up and spreading her wings, so to speak, and not dedicating the time and attention his direction as she had in the past? Maybe these events were starting to add up? Maybe it's simply the straw that broke the camel's back this time?

Since we're not privy to a lot of info who is to say? So as it stands, I don't see it as much of a hurdle to understand how her being with other guys, partying, etc. might be becoming a problem or issue in their relationship enough to be especially a problem on this particular night.

It sounds like I'm piling on JW but that's not really the case. We've looked at 5N up, down, around, over, under, sideways, and back. And it's really gotten nowhere (the 5N story is no more or less believable than it ever was). What if we, for the sake of argument, just assume the gist of the 5N story is true and LS staggered out JR's door at 4 something in the morning. All of a sudden JW becomes, IMHO, a very viable person of interest.

 

[AbbeyR]

I agree. I actually am more surprised that they didn't call a cab. IMO, the only reason not to call a cab at that point is money and these aren't people that are necessarily going to be hung up on letting LS borrow a few bucks for a cab ride home. It wasn't far so it wouldn't be expensive. They wouldn't have had to leave the comfort of their apartment, so it would have been convenient for them. If they are going to take the time to call others, why not call someone who is guaranteed to answer and will definitely take her home?

Another reason not to call a cab is if a person can't walk or talk, or is unconscious... This would also explain why they didn't do the easiest thing - take 5 min and walk her home. JMO

 

[holly18]

I'm not sure that matters. Plenty of boyfriends have been jealous of girlfriends for doing things they didn't like. Even if there was nothing going on. Just being with CR might be enough to be seen as reciprocating advances if you're JW.

Who knows what would be in his mind in a scenario like this? If it was a crime of passion then thinking clearly likely wouldn't be something we should count on. Another reason not to extend the benefit of the doubt.

Just IMO, but from what I've seen on facebook and on other social media, Lauren had quite a few close male friends. She was good friends with several males who, hypothetically, could have been interested in her, but those appear to have been well maintained relationships over the years (occasionally friendships that also included JW), from what I've seen lauren and jw seem to have had different (though overlapping) groups of friends, Lauren and JW hadn't just been together for a few months or a year, imo if he was as super jealous as others have painted him he would have had issues with Lauren's male friends long before she went missing. I don't find it hard to believe that CR had a stronger interest in Lauren than she had in him, she might have thought that he was just another male friend, while he wanted more.

Just speaking for myself, I in no way think that JW is necessarily innocent, but I've seen no information about how he would find Lauren that night, hurt her, and then hide her. In contrast, we have at least three guys whose information doesn't seem legitimate and that doesn't line up.

 

[holly18]

Good point. Did he or his father drive home or fly home? If they flew home, that would narrow the area and the time JW would have had to hide her, if involved. If they drove and she is somewhere between IN & NY, that means his dad would have to be involved and also increase the time to dispose and possible locations. Did JW take his car anywhere for service once back in NY? Did he return to IN with the same car?

Would LE have someone follow the boys (JW, CR, JR, MB) on their way home if they were driving and if they suspected them? IDK if that is something they do given the distances, but then they could hopefully eliminate out of state disposals, unless it was a guest or a stranger not yet identified at the time so they wouldn't have known to keep an eye on them.

IIRC, I think some people have considered whether he got her key to get evidence out of her room? I'm not sure what evidence would be in her room if it was a crime of passion though.

It would be interesting to see when JW started reaching out to people and what their responses were - did they give him a reason to freak out?


Related to people reaching out, I wonder if JR ever reached out to HT to see if LS made it back? I still think it is odd that out of everyone he could have called that night, HT wasn't one of them. Even if LS walked out, he could have sent a text saying,"By the way, LS is heading back. She doesn't have her phone and she is messed up/has a bruised face. Keep an eye out for her." Did he bother to text the next day even to ask if she made it back alright?

It doesn't necessarily mean anything but it stands out to me.

I also have been wondering about his reasoning for the two phone calls. JR claims he was looking for someone to give LS a ride home, but I wonder how well that actually holds up. He claims he knew DR was doing Klonopin with LS. Would he really be in a position to be driving? If the cops saw him and he was impaired, DR's probably looking at a DUI. I wonder if the other person JR called was also similarly impaired?

This has always stood out to me. Why not text HT? According to HT, and MSM, HT and JR were very close friends. wouldn't he text her to give her a heads up? If he had felt it necessary to give lauren a walking test, he knew she wasn't totally sober. Wouldn't he want to let his friend HT know that Lauren was headed back and might need a hand? IMO thats a big hole in the story. JR was good friends with HT, better friends than he was with Lauren, why on earth wouldn't he call her?? No matter what state Lauren was in, I'd think that JR would want to (while he's making phone calls on lauren's behalf, according to him) call or text HT just to let her know that her roommate was on her way home and wasn't in great shape.

 

[sammi89]

It sounds like I'm piling on JW but that's not really the case. We've looked at 5N up, down, around, over, under, sideways, and back. And it's really gotten nowhere (the 5N story is no more or less believable than it ever was). What if we, for the sake of argument, just assume the gist of the 5N story is true and LS staggered out JR's door at 4 something in the morning. All of a sudden JW becomes, IMHO, a very viable person of interest.

Snipped and BBM.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily true. IMO, it seems like the stories have become less believable.

IMO, if she left, it seems more believable that someone already in the area and perhaps out of camera sight/witness sight got ahold of LS than the idea of JW getting there and back without anyone or anything seeing, but I think the latest discussion is just that - if JW is behind it, how did he pull it off? I'm also not sure why it often comes down to 5N OR JW? For the reason I just mentioned, if she did somehow leave, I think a stranger abduction becomes a much bigger possibility, not just the JW angle.

If we go with your assumption that she did stagger out, what do you think happened?

 

[holly18]

Snipped by me. I agree with the thought that he might have used the key to look for something in her room ... maybe the klonopin or something of that nature? While I'm not sold on JW being involved in anything more than keeping something hush, I'm willing to brainstorm almost anything at this point. I'll take a look back at the maps ...

You make a good point about JR calling DR. If what he says is true, he probably knew DR wouldn't be driving. I still think he called to find out how much or exactly what she took. JMO. Also, I agree it would have been *logical* for him to contact HT. Not much about this case seems logical, though, does it?

In addition, I have a really hard time reconciling JR making calls to find LS a ride and then letting her walk. This is where everything freezes for me. She had no shoes, no keys, a bruised face, and, to paraphrase JR, confused an I-pod for a cell phone. He made two calls to find her a ride. It was 4 in the morning. And then he watched her walk to the corner? Given the circumstances, why wouldn't he have walked with her? It doesn't add up.

BBM,
1) but according to reports LE found white powder in Lauren's room. Kind of makes me wonder what JW would have been seeking to remove, if he didn't remove that. IDK if that indicates that he didn't move anything at all, or that he was more interesting in moving something else.

2) IA, it doesn't seem logical. Sometimes I wonder if the mistake we're all making on this thread is thinking logically. This whole thing just seems so off and weird that I really have trouble with logically reconciling it.

3) I could not agree more. How long did it take him to make those calls? He wasn't that far away from her apartment, he could have just walked her over there. If she was in enough trouble that he felt she needed to be driven why on earth would he just let her walk or stumble away? Spending several minutes calling to have someone pick a friend up when it would take you five minutes to walk her home, and then letting her walk off on her own, just seems suspicious to me.

 

[sammi89]

BBM,
1) but according to reports LE found white powder in Lauren's room. Kind of makes me wonder what JW would have been seeking to remove, if he didn't remove that. IDK if that indicates that he didn't move anything at all, or that he was more interesting in moving something else.

2) IA, it doesn't seem logical. Sometimes I wonder if the mistake we're all making on this thread is thinking logically. This whole thing just seems so off and weird that I really have trouble with logically reconciling it.

3) I could not agree more. How long did it take him to make those calls? He wasn't that far away from her apartment, he could have just walked her over there. If she was in enough trouble that he felt she needed to be driven why on earth would he just let her walk or stumble away? Spending several minutes calling to have someone pick a friend up when it would take you five minutes to walk her home, and then letting her walk off on her own, just seems suspicious to me.

Not only did he waste a lot of time calling people instead of walking her home himself or calling a cab, he was calling at least one person he already knew to be impaired. I agree with imkeylime that IMO, he was calling about what she took, and if that's the real reason he was calling, then how likely is it that she walked out the door?

 

[holly18]

Not only did he waste a lot of time calling people instead of walking her home himself or calling a cab, he was calling at least one person he already knew to be impaired. I agree with imkeylime that IMO, he was calling about what she took, and if that's the real reason he was calling, then how likely is it that she walked out the door?

ITA, although I can also imagine him not calling asking what she took but calling more to say "I know she did x with you, come get her or back me up".

IDK, given the fact that Lauren still hasn't been found after so long I find it hard to believe that JR cared what she had taken. He didn't call 911, he (as far as we know) didn't ask CR what had happened/ what she had taken... I think its more than likely that he called to try to get someone else to deal with Lauren.

 

[UncleJohn]

From what I've read, I think it's safe to assume that all the named POIs were extremely intoxicated at 3 or 4am that morning. I see no reason to think that their actions would have been logical or rational.

I think this also might explain the conflicting and changing stories from 5N - they were too f__ed up to remember what happened. And maybe JR didn't walk her home because he was too wasted to walk himself.

On the other hand, young men (and women) have a well-deserved reputation for doing incredibly stupid things when drunk/drugged. Maybe the 5N boys (and/or their guests) did something incredibly stupid (hid her body _add cause of death here_) and got incredibly lucky (that her body has not been found).

On the third had, and as I have suggested before, the boyfriend remains a prime suspect in my mind. He has a strong motive and a weak alibi. I'm sure at least one of his frat bros would have texted to him that his girl was out with another guy. If she did manage to leave 5N, he could well have been on his way there or even waiting outside. He had a car, and there would have been few or no cameras in the residential neighborhood between 5N and his house. Oh yeah, and the bag of white powder in LS's apartment - it could have been planted (not overlooked) to suggest heart-related OD so as to throw off the investigators.

- John

 

[Ixchel13]

Snipped and BBM.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily true. IMO, it seems like the stories have become less believable.
IMO, if she left, it seems more believable that someone already in the area and perhaps out of camera sight/witness sight got ahold of LS than the idea of JW getting there and back without anyone or anything seeing, but I think the latest discussion is just that - if JW is behind it, how did he pull it off? I'm also not sure why it often comes down to 5N OR JW? For the reason I just mentioned, if she did somehow leave, I think a stranger abduction becomes a much bigger possibility, not just the JW angle.

If we go with your assumption that she did stagger out, what do you think happened?

BBM I don't think their stories become less believable, it's just all the time
that has passed makes us less gullible.

The big question to ask is, did she leave? To me, and from the beginning, stranger abduction has always been my first choice, if she left. By stranger, this doesn't have to mean a serial killer was passing through town. I mean stranger to this group.

The area is rife with weirdos by night, but they don't all go away by day. It could be someone who had seen her before, many times. It could be a business owner, or a property owner. The area was in flux from the kids moving out, people looking for places to live, and people moving in for summer school. Property owners would be staying in some of their rental
units or houses, or renting them out for just the summer.
If she left, anyone could have grabbed her. No one likes this scenario.
Because it means more hurt for Lauren. Because it may mean that 5N guys are innocent of disposing of her body.
They will never be innocent of not helping her home.
If these frat guys helped each other, they will never tell unless they are caught somehow and face jail time. Then, they will sing like canaries. I agree with Uncle John about JW perhaps waiting outside. But, JR could have texted
someone else in JW's group and then they called JW. So see, JR didn't call him
but he still knows. JR could have told Lauren, hey JW is on his way. But Lauren didn't want to wait for him because she thought he would be mad,
and JR was stalling her with the "sobriety test". She could have left, and he caught up with her anyway. When he finally checked back with JR it would be,
oh no I never came after her, I was asleep. Oh yeah, so and so texted, but I didn't wake up. So, even if he strongly suspects that JW did come and get Lauren, JR is going to cover for him, because if she did leave, he is not lying, the last time he saw her she was heading for the corner. Maybe he then kicked JR out of a party because he didn't want JR trying to find out anything
or telling his side of the story, but only for show, because by not saying he tried to reach JW, JW knows that JR is already covering for him. If it is true that JR really saw Lauren heading for, or even turning that corner, I really can't see him being convicted of murder or hiding a body in that way.
And can't get him for conspiracy to hide a murder unless the other shoe drops, i.e.the person(s) he's covering for gets caught or confesses. He's so cocky with the story, it's almost like he knows he's not guilty of doing anything to Lauren. EXCEPT the duty of care.
So, if JR does know what happened, but won't tell, then what is left except to ruin him with a civil trial? I think it is important that Laurens parents make it clear that this is not going to go away and they are doing that. If he is covering for someone else, he needs to fully understand that the price for that is utter ruin. And everyone else involved needs to know that, the twelve people whose phone calls may become known, that this is not a tragic game,
it's not about saving the reps of the living because they can't bring Lauren back, it's about justice and closure. And that if they are keeping quiet, they
are criminals, not loyal friends.

 

[imkeylime]

Snipped and BBM.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily true. IMO, it seems like the stories have become less believable.

IMO, if she left, it seems more believable that someone already in the area and perhaps out of camera sight/witness sight got ahold of LS than the idea of JW getting there and back without anyone or anything seeing, but I think the latest discussion is just that - if JW is behind it, how did he pull it off? I'm also not sure why it often comes down to 5N OR JW? For the reason I just mentioned, if she did somehow leave, I think a stranger abduction becomes a much bigger possibility, not just the JW angle.

If we go with your assumption that she did stagger out, what do you think happened?

One thought that's crossed my mind is that LS somehow left 5N on her own volition because something had frightened her. IDK if she would have been able to do so, as noted, but if she did, who knows what could have happened next.

There was one account from MB's neighbor that LS left CR/MBs versus him taking her to JR's. What if that account was really what happened at JR's ... while he was talking on the phone, for instance, she stumbled out and he just let her go? IMO, JR seems pretty heartless.

Total speculation, obviously ... trying to not think logically.

 

[Dixie811]

Do we know for a fact that HT spent the night in her apartment at Smallwood? I thought that was established as fact. The reason I wanted to confirm was that a possible reason for JR not to contact HT about LS's condition/allowing her to walk home could be that he knew she wasn't sleeping at her Smallwood apt that night, but perhaps was hooking up with a male friend and staying the night at his place?

I agree with other posters that it doesn't really make sense why JR wouldn't have contacted HT if he was calling around for rides for Lauren, or if he was sending her home on foot to Smallwood alone in that condition.

 

[holly18]

Do we know for a fact that HT spent the night in her apartment at Smallwood? I thought that was established as fact. The reason I wanted to confirm was that a possible reason for JR not to contact HT about LS's condition/allowing her to walk home could be that he knew she wasn't sleeping at her Smallwood apt that night, but perhaps was hooking up with a male friend and staying the night at his place?

I agree with other posters that it doesn't really make sense why JR wouldn't have contacted HT if he was calling around for rides for Lauren, or if he was sending her home on foot to Smallwood alone in that condition.

As far as I can remember, it was mentioned in articles that Lauren and HT were roommates, and that HT hadn't noticed lauren wasn't home or wasn't concerned until she spoke to JW who was worried and told her about lauren's heart problem. Its been implied that HT was home that night, but AFAIK has never been explicitly stated or confirmed. Its certainly a good question though

 

[Ixchel13]

Snipped by me. I agree with the thought that he might have used the key to look for something in her room ... maybe the klonopin or something of that nature? While I'm not sold on JW being involved in anything more than keeping something hush, I'm willing to brainstorm almost anything at this point. I'll take a look back at the maps ...

You make a good point about JR calling DR. If what he says is true, he probably knew DR wouldn't be driving. I still think he called to find out how much or exactly what she took. JMO. Also, I agree it would have been *logical* for him to contact HT. Not much about this case seems logical, though, does it?

In addition, I have a really hard time reconciling JR making calls to find LS a ride and then letting her walk. This is where everything freezes for me. She had no shoes, no keys, a bruised face, and, to paraphrase JR, confused an I-pod for a cell phone. He made two calls to find her a ride. It was 4 in the morning. And then he watched her walk to the corner? Given the circumstances, why wouldn't he have walked with her? It doesn't add up.

B&stuffBM This is in no way trying to argue. "he made two calls to get a ride." has always bothered me. Say he made five calls. It wouldn't be a lie to say "He made two calls. One was to DR and the other to a man who had been watching the game w. Lauren and HT earlier at SW." They just aren't mentioning the other two or three calls. Standard procedure.
oh yeah, IMO only. And, can we go with MB making at least one call? iirc he implied that he was making calls or helping to make calls or something like that in the deposition.
So more than two calls. JMO

 

[imkeylime]

As far as I can remember, it was mentioned in articles that Lauren and HT were roommates, and that HT hadn't noticed lauren wasn't home or wasn't concerned until she spoke to JW who was worried and told her about lauren's heart problem. Its been implied that HT was home that night, but AFAIK has never been explicitly stated or confirmed. Its certainly a good question though

Maybe HT thought LS ended up staying over at JW's until JW contacted her. ???

 

[AbbeyR]

Snipped and BBM.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily true. IMO, it seems like the stories have become less believable.

Yes, I agree. They have absolutely become less believable. This is because with the guys at 5 N (unlike most of the other people discussed here) we actually have evidence, not just speculation and we know that their stories have changed multiple times. Each time new information came out, like the info from the witnesses, the descriptions of the surveillance video, then the reports from the private investigators, then the lawsuit docs, there have been more and more contradictions. At this point, looking back on the original statements they provided through friends and lawyers, just about every single bit of information has since been challenged or has turned out not to be true.

 

[akh]

Unless we get access to the original statements to LE, versus whatever their statements are now, we have no idea how much their official statements have changed or not. All we know is that 2nd and third hand reporting have not been consistent. To a point. There's a rather large difference between that and actually hearing directly from the PsOI themselves in their own words at each point. Which is something we aren't privy too.