IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Ros]

Does anyone find it odd that two BPD detectives are mentioned by name in CR's list of witnesses to be called in his defense at the civil trial? (Source: Pacer.gov). Does CR have friends at the BPD? Does this support the rumor that he was a police informant? Am I remembering that rumor correctly?

I think that ZO was the one rumored to be an informant.

 

[Ros]

There's was also speculation that LS was an informant. See example in comments at this link, which I hope is legit. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/brownsburg-in/TTR1NLLVQFL4OIU20
All of the original "girl missing" threads on PT appear to be gone now.

 

[VeryVeritas]

BBM: Well, someone gave (anonymous) statements to the media describing the reason for the altercation, which matches the account told to the private investigators in the LoHud video- that Corey was acting aggressively and inappropriately towards Lauren, they asked him to stop and bring her to her room, and he started swearing at them, which is when CR got punched.

(link)

I still have problems with this.

1) The video is not consistent with them caring so much about Lauren.
2) Sure they might have been angry at whatever CR said. But the fact is they could have helped her to her room and didn't... they didn't even help her stand up. She was slipping down in the elevator.
3) Did they talk to her? Did they ask her if she was alright? Did they ask her if he was bothering her? etc...

It could have been a simple testosterone surge, or there could be long standing hatred, etc... or perhaps there was more. But the key thing for me is that by their actions were not helping LS in any way. I think their actions speak louder than their words.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I think that ZO was the one rumored to be an informant.

Yes, ZO was rumored to be:
A) An informant
B) A drug dealer
C) A local who did not attend UI but was extremely well off and very connected.

And, didn't see any of those rumors go anywhere.

 

[VeryVeritas]

There's was also speculation that LS was an informant. See example in comments at this link, which I hope is legit. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/brownsburg-in/TTR1NLLVQFL4OIU20
All of the original "girl missing" threads on PT appear to be gone now.

Wow, I missed that one.

For all of these supposed informants sure is strange no one was busted for anything other than speeding, drunkenness, urinating in public and being where they weren't supposed to be.

 

[AbbeyR]

The quote Abbey printed in the post above must be Fox news paraphrasing, because we know it was her key CARD that was found in the alley, right? even though, LE and reporters have both referred to it as 'keys'.

No, we don't. That's why I was asking. The only reporting about her key card AFAIK, is that JR said he saw it when she arrived at 5 N, which would be after she dropped her things in the alley.

I appreciate the quotes, but they are consistent with what was reported that I quoted above. As you note, Qualters said that her keys and wristlet were found in the alley, and I posted the description from the person who found it (gold key) above.

It would be interesting if her keycard was found with the wristlet, because that would call into question JR's story. But that's not what has been reported. For the same reason, it would bring up some more questions if her fake ID was found at Smallwood or somewhere else. But that has never been stated either.

I don't think it's unusual at all for it to be reported that her (real) ID was found at home. I've read about wallets/ id/ cellphone/ medication etc. being found at home in many missing person cases. My impression is that that this is reported because it is an indication that the person did not just leave town or run away.

Like Ros mentioned though, I'm more interested in the fake ID because of the Kilroy's issue. It would be interesting to know if this ID was found at 5 N or elsewhere, or if the bar was charged without having found the physical ID (Does the bar scan ID at the door? Or could they have been fined without it? I don't know...)

It seems tedious, but listened to in small doses, hearing the briefings straight from the source is not tedious, in fact, fascinating.

I agree. It's helpful to hear the questions that are often edited out in the articles too. It gives better context to what LE was responding to.

 

[AbbeyR]

There's was also speculation that LS was an informant. See example in comments at this link, which I hope is legit. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/brownsburg-in/TTR1NLLVQFL4OIU20
All of the original "girl missing" threads on PT appear to be gone now.

Isn't that the same person who left comments all over Gatto's blog and youtube about ridiculous conspiracies involving BPD and drugs?

I think all of the drug informant rumors are silly, and appear to come from a couple of questionable sources, JMO!

 

[AbbeyR]

I still have problems with this.

1) The video is not consistent with them caring so much about Lauren.
2) Sure they might have been angry at whatever CR said. But the fact is they could have helped her to her room and didn't... they didn't even help her stand up. She was slipping down in the elevator.
3) Did they talk to her? Did they ask her if she was alright? Did they ask her if he was bothering her? etc...

It could have been a simple testosterone surge, or there could be long standing hatred, etc... or perhaps there was more. But the key thing for me is that by their actions were not helping LS in any way. I think their actions speak louder than their words.

re. 3) Yes, according to the description from the video, it started with them asking if Lauren was ok:

SC: ...In the hallway they were confronted by four guys who came up and saw that Lauren was in bad shape. One of them asked Lauren if she was okay, and Corey said, you know, "I got it. She's fine"

PI: Then the boy again says "Hey dude, you better take her to her room"

SC: same boy

PI: and Corey now gets mouthy, says "*advertiser censored** you, I got it". And that's about enough for ZO, who's a tough kid, I hear. And one punch to the jaw, and Corey went down...

So yeah, it sounds like they intervened at first because of Lauren, but the punch may have been more about Corey telling them to F off. (The other witness account I quoted also describes CR as being aggressive and belligerent)

Like I said, I also have questions about what happened next, but it doesn't make me doubt the reason why they stopped or imagine that there must be some other conspiracy going on. After all, we could say the same thing about the next witness too, right? What is noticeable in both accounts is that both ask if Lauren is okay, and in both cases, Corey answers for her, and says he is in control of the situation.

I think part of my reaction to this is that I've seen situations like this. If you've ever lived in a student area, chances are you've seen a really intoxicated girl with a guy, or being carried out of a bar, etc. Did you ever try to intervene to see if she was okay? If the guy with her said she was fine and he had things under control or was taking her home, what would you do next?

What are your choices? Physically carrying a random girl away from the person she is with who is already doing this? Calling the police? Or do you believe/ hope that the person she is with (who she presumably knows) is taking care of her and would get help if needed?

There are obviously better choices that should have been made in hindsight, by both the guys at Smallwood and possibly the witness on the street that would have resulted in Lauren getting home safely. I wish they had taken her home themselves (if they knew which room was hers), and/or called security/ the police/ her friends (if they knew them). But tbh, my reaction now would be different than it was 3 years ago. Before Lauren's story, I'm honestly not sure what I would have done. I might have worried that she was too drunk to make it home by herself, that she may have injured herself or that she might be taken advantage of. But I also might have believed the person she was with if he reassured me that things were okay or that he was taking her home. I don't know... But I can only imagine how much regret I would feel if I found out she never made it home and was never seen again. No one would have anticipated that.

All JMO

 

[masootz]

i might be mixing things up, but is it possible that the reason none of the guys wanted to walk her home is because one of them had been punched earlier at her apt complex? i could see them not wanting to deal with ZO if they thought he was still lurking about and might punch one of them for being with her. i could also see young men not wanting to admit they were afraid of a fight.

 

[bessie]

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=81917
actually the link is up and running both audio and in print. The quote Abbey printed in the post above must be Fox news paraphrasing, because we know it was her key CARD that was found in the alley, right? even though, LE and reporters have both referred to it as 'keys'.

<rsbm>

The gold key found with the wristlet was reported to be a car key.

...dropped her clutch purse and car keys shortly after emerging from the gaze of the alley&#8217;s video cameras. The two items were found the next day by a hair stylist going into work.

http://dmnewsi.com/2011/06/26/vanished-where-is-lauren-spierer/

You have to wonder (at least I do) how she lost the wristlet, but yet managed to retain her fake ID and key card.


ETA: Link to post where this was mentioned in 2011. Original media link is only available in paid archives.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #12

 

[bessie]

The railing, I assume.

I would say so. It appears to be the same one Btown posted.






Here's another from the same post.



There are more good photos in this thread.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140294"]IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Ixchel13]

<rsbm>

The gold key found with the wristlet was reported to be a car key.

http://dmnewsi.com/2011/06/26/vanished-where-is-lauren-spierer/

You have to wonder (at least I do) how she lost the wristlet, but yet managed to retain her fake ID and key card.


ETA: Link to post where this was mentioned in 2011. Original media link is only available in paid archives.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #12

the keys and how many sets is a whole theory to itself! thanks

card key--gets into SW
apartment key to actual door
car keys

lets figure out where they were all found.
trust me, Qualters mentions twice in the audios that she left behind keys at SW, I'm still looking for it, if someone else finds it, please help. It may even be Lt. Parker in the earlier tapes but I think it's Q. All together, I remember 3 mentions of Lauren leaving personal effect behind, at SW,
1 by Parker iirc, and 2 by Q. by all means someone correct me id I'm wrong.

Wouldn't be surprised if it was her key card after all found at SW since it was a car key found in wristlet. and since it is plural, perhaps also door key?

Makes me wonder if the car key was somehow attached to the wristlet inside with some sort of toggle? Why else would she bother to bring her car key along when she didn't need her car?
but, that does mean Lauren's car keys were available....
Am I off on a tangent to wonder why a regular ID comes into play(some would think) and a key to an unnecessary vehicle?
To go out that night, Lauren would need:
fake ID
Student ID for 2nd Piece
key to apt door
card key to get into SW Plaza

 

[Ros]

Yes, ZO was rumored to be:
A) An informant
B) A drug dealer
C) A local who did not attend UI but was extremely well off and very connected.

And, didn't see any of those rumors go anywhere.

As I recall, the rumor that ZO was a dealer came from the same person who said, on PT, that ZO was the one who hit CR, before that information became public knowledge. However, there was no evidence on mycase.in.gov that ZO had ever had a drug arrest, just a number of traffic tickets, underage drinking, et. This led to speculation that he was an informant.

There is no official evidence that ZO was either an informant or a dealer, and I do not think he was either.

ZO did attend IU. In fact, there were two men at IU named ZO at the time LS disappeared. I think one is still at IU. The ZO in question was from Indianapolis and has probably graduated by now. His mother is deceased. His father is chairman of a major Midwestern office furniture company. His stepfather is a physician. I do not know where ZO lives now, but at one time his address was that of dwelling worth several million.

 

[bessie]

the keys and how many sets is a whole theory to itself! thanks

card key--gets into SW
apartment key to actual door
car keys

lets figure out where they were all found.
trust me, Qualters mentions twice in the audios that she left behind keys at SW, I'm still looking for it, if someone else finds it, please help. It may even be Lt. Parker in the earlier tapes but I think it's Q. All together, I remember 3 mentions of Lauren leaving personal effect behind, at SW,
1 by Parker iirc, and 2 by Q. by all means someone correct me id I'm wrong.

Wouldn't be surprised if it was her key card after all found at SW since it was a car key found in wristlet. and since it is plural, perhaps also door key?

Makes me wonder if the car key was somehow attached to the wristlet inside with some sort of toggle? Why else would she bother to bring her car key along when she didn't need her car?
but, that does mean Lauren's car keys were available....
Am I off on a tangent to wonder why a regular ID comes into play(some would think) and a key to an unnecessary vehicle?
To go out that night, Lauren would need:
fake ID
Student ID for 2nd Piece
key to apt door
card key to get into SW Plaza

I recall that, too, but I can't listen to the tapes right now to confirm. Here's my take on the inventory at the moment.

In the gravel lot:
Wristlet
Car key

In her possession, per JR:
Fake ID
Key card for SW

In her apt:
Real ID
Apt key

It was said to be one gold key on the wristlet. The first sentence does use the plural "keys", but the next sentence says, "the two items", meaning wristlet and key. I agree the key was probably attached to the wristlet. I keep my own car key on a wristlet, and I never remove it.

...dropped her clutch purse and car keys shortly after emerging from the gaze of the alley’s video cameras. The two items were found the next day by a hair stylist going into work.

 

[bx2]

Just a small add to the Bloomington bar scene and IDs- I can't recall a single instance in my college years attending Kilroys that a 2nd form of ID wasn't required for entrance. Of course, if her fake had her name on it, this could be covered by her normal student ID or credit card.

 

[bx2]

She hasn't been found for three years. If, as many speculate, she was hidden by one or more of the residents of 5N, why hide her so well that she could not be found?

Anyone know how much time would have to elapse before there would be no evidence of rape, roofies, other illegal drugs, etc. in her remains? I would be very surprised if anything that could convict someone would be left by that time. Why not send an anonymous tip and give her parents some peace?

Speculating of course, but maybe the location of the remains is the smoking gun. I know that the Myers verdict is still seen as controversial by many, but wasn't one of the key depositions that the location of Jill Behrman's body triggered a former Myers gf to describe how he took her to that spot and held her against her will?

 

[bx2]

Again, I want to mention this is very much just an amateur interpretation of the recent filings to the civil docket; I haven't seen any actual media coverage of the recent additions so will fill in some of what I can. (all info from the publicly accessible court record system, pacer.gov *and additional link added*).

There had been a dispute on the Spierer's discovery requests, particularly with the wide net that they seemingly cast, and defendants both issued motions to Quash the Nonparty Subpeonas. On 5/19, the Magistrate judge stayed all discovery and scheduled a hearing "at which time the motions to quash will be addressed along with any remaining discovery issues". This hearing is scheduled for tomorrow, 5/28 at 2pm.

There has been a slew of briefs from the plaintiffs explaining their position in dispute of the discovery stay and for the original requests that will seemingly be under examination during tomorrow's hearing. There is also a witness presented by the plaintiffs as a toxicology expert, who expresses the need for aspects of the discovery process stay to be lifted in order to offer his opinion. He does mention that he has been shown video of LS condition on the morning of June 3, 2011 (presumably the security cam footage we know about)

In addition to the discovery battle, there are motions filed by the defendants for summary judgment that have yet to be dealt with from what I can tell. Very much in my own opinion from reading the court docs, the civil case is looking extremely shaky and if the stay on discovery is not lifted, I'm not sure how a single deposition or answer happens.

edit to add link: http://www.theindianalawyer.com/spi...claims-called-precarious/PARAMS/article/34170

I hadn't seen an update to the discovery hearing mentioned above; unfortunately it appears that the discovery stay will remain in place [Pacer.gov]:

Defendants suggest that Plaintiffs’ proposed discovery “makes it clear that they are attempting to conduct their own independent investigation into the disappearance of Lauren Spierer using federal subpoena power under the guise of prosecuting a Dram Shop claim.” If this description is correct, Plaintiffs’ pursuit of information is understandable given the mystery and misery that surrounds Lauren Spierer’s disappearance three years ago today. Nevertheless, for the reasons set forth, the discovery stay will remain in place and discovery will remain on hold for now.

Accordingly, Plaintiffs’ motion for reconsideration is denied.
Defendants’ motions to quash are denied as moot in light of the
discovery stay.

 

[Ixchel13]

I would say so. It appears to be the same one Btown posted.


View attachment 44118

View attachment 44119

Here's another from the same post.

View attachment 44121

There are more good photos in this thread.

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

about the third attachment, when you look at that exact view now, it's totally different, all buildings, and then they have extended that same n/s alley all the way up to 11th St. between 5N and the duplexes. Gravel lot is gone, east /west alley is nicely paved.
It would be interesting to see the same sites side by side now. I know it's just progress, but all along the entire route has been changed. Just that one strip of alley she emerged from is still the same.
Not to start anything, but I'm wondering if the PIs aren't also talking about the alley that runs from SW to the curb across from 10th and C.? this would run alongside Morton Mansions. Because, they describe Lauren falling twice even before they sit down on the steps, she (supposedly at this time) then smacks her head, and then they make their way up the alley and try to get in ZC's apt. It makes sense when you hear Parker say she is seen on video along the route and someone asks how is she depicted on camera, and he says just her presence in and out of the camera view. So I think they also have her in the alley before you get to 10th and C.
At the beginning of all these threads, we had Lauren falling twice after emerging from the alley at 2:51, LE and PIs don't describe this. (?)

 

[Jacobite]

Indeed, there are self proclaimed expert armchair detectives who repeat over and over again that Lauren Spierer was face down and unconscious on the last camera. They further more state there is no proof that Lauren ever walked again.

But, I'm not so sure. After all, IU's newspaper, the IDS says the last camera shows Lauren Spierer walking towards a vacant lot never to be seen again.

 

[AbbeyR]

Indeed, there are self proclaimed expert armchair detectives who repeat over and over again that Lauren Spierer was face down and unconscious on the last camera. They further more state there is no proof that Lauren ever walked again.

But, I'm not so sure. After all, IU's newspaper, the IDS says the last camera shows Lauren Spierer walking towards a vacant lot never to be seen again.

It sounds like you are referring to a recent post by VV, but I'm not sure if that poster claimed the face down fall was the last she was seen on camera, or just that after the face first fall and last moments Lauren was seen, there is no proof that Lauren walked away again -- as in, away from 5 N. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but the evidence we do have calls into question whether she could have walked/ left on her own.

We have all read the reports of the last few minutes she was seen/ caught on video. According to the most detailed reports and the lawsuit docs:

- She was seen at Kilroys unable to walk without the assistance of CR
- She is then seen at Smallwood by witnesses who describe her as 'incapacitated' and 'non-responsive'
- she is captured on video at Smallwood falling on the ground and being 'helped' out of the building by CR
- She is seen sitting on the stairs with CR, where she falls and smacks her head against the concrete, so loud that a witness hears the 'thud'
- She then falls and can't even raise her hands to break her fall, then falls a second time
- At tenth and College, CR then has LS slung across his back and is carrying her
- She loses her things as they cross the gravel lot, and the last description is consistent with the others above:

&#8220;It was a combination of her staggering, him pulling and carrying her,&#8221; investigator Mike Ciravolo said.

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

The constant being, Lauren can't seem to walk on her own, but is stumbling, falling, being pulled along and carried.

There is no proof that Lauren ever walked again after that. JR's statement that Lauren left without stumbling seems inconsistent with even the account attributed to MB in the lawsuit docs, which describes Lauren as 'incapacitated' and needing help to get home. There are no witnesses to back up his account, and according to LE, there is no video evidence that she ever made it to the corner, as JR claims.

In one of the most recent articles, CS reiterates this, in response to MB's lawyer stating that Lauren "walked away":

"He was very flippant about it. I just wanted to say, 'Just prove that she just walked away.'" The Spierers, who will mark the third anniversary since their daughter's disappearance Tuesday, continue to suspect Beth and two friends had something to do with it, and that the 20-year-old Indiana University student may never have left their townhouse complex alive after she arrived there...

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/loc...e-third-anniversary-parents-struggle/9837123/