IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

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AbbeyR said:
It sounds like you are referring to a recent post by VV, but I'm not sure if that poster claimed the face down fall was the last she was seen on camera, or just that after the face first fall and last moments Lauren was seen, there is no proof that Lauren walked away again -- as in, away from 5 N. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but the evidence we do have calls into question whether she could have walked/ left on her own.

We have all read the reports of the last few minutes she was seen/ caught on video. According to the most detailed reports and the lawsuit docs:

- She was seen at Kilroys unable to walk without the assistance of CR
- She is then seen at Smallwood by witnesses who describe her as 'incapacitated' and 'non-responsive'
- she is captured on video at Smallwood falling on the ground and being 'helped' out of the building by CR
- She is seen sitting on the stairs with CR, where she falls and smacks her head against the concrete, so loud that a witness hears the 'thud'
- She then falls and can't even raise her hands to break her fall, then falls a second time
- At tenth and College, CR then has LS slung across his back and is carrying her
- She loses her things as they cross the gravel lot, and the last description is consistent with the others above:

http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

The constant being, Lauren can't seem to walk on her own, but is stumbling, falling, being pulled along and carried.

There is no proof that Lauren ever walked again after that. JR's statement that Lauren left without stumbling seems inconsistent with even the account attributed to MB in the lawsuit docs, which describes Lauren as 'incapacitated' and needing help to get home. There are no witnesses to back up his account, and according to LE, there is no video evidence that she ever made it to the corner, as JR claims.

In one of the most recent articles, CS reiterates this, in response to MB's lawyer stating that Lauren "walked away":


http://www.lohud.com/story/news/loc...e-third-anniversary-parents-struggle/9837123/
Click to expand...

I think both Jacobite and I were talking about when Lauren and CR were making their way up to 5N, not if Lauren was able to walk away at 4:30.

None of us can say if she could walk away at 4:30. But we know she wasn't unconscious when she emerged from the alley and started towards 5N;
one of the only real facts of the case that is given to us by LE is that she was
"very much alive" when she emerged from the alley. PIs back this up.

Something else happened after that. Lauren's head injury could have gradually through the next hour gotten worse. Sifting through all of the back comments on several websites, there are rumors of another confrontation
near 5N. IMO, there could have been.

We focus on the last 3 to see her. Going back through all of the "evidence", i.e. trial by public opinion, people have alot to say about JW, ZO and HT. Things we are not allowed to say here (that's a good thing!) are said with frequency.
IOW, not all public opinion just focuses on last 3.

This is not to defend them. the 3 5N POIs are definitely involved, IMO. But I think more people were directly involved.

And so does LE. From the beginning, and 3 years later, they won't release POI status on anyone. Until someone cracks, they want these people to carry this weight for the rest of their lives. JMO

Here are some possible POIs, according to LE definition in this case, people who were closely with Lauren before she disappeared, and why I think they are POIs in particular.

MB, CR, JR--it's obvious, last with her, stories don't match, 2 provided alcohol.

JW--wasn't where he said he was, at least, plus Bo D. added, "and all that...."

HT--possibly was at altercation and didn't help, defended POIs in the media before police could question them, possible story doesn't match, didn't come forward willingly IMO, had some of Lauren's possessions from that night possibly,
and of course other things we aren't aware of. JMO

ZO--punched Lauren's date, made it impossible for them to stay at SW (IMO),
lied about reason for altercation, and although we don't know, LE probably has his movements after the altercation on camera. JMO

DB--his only alibi is another POI, had the means to transport Lauren out of state. JMO

ZC-Last coherent thing Lauren did was to try and get in her apt. Why?
Didn't help Lauren. Was witness to many interactions that evening but did not come forward for over a year. Left the country. she's sketchy, JMO

Not sure if AB and BB are the other two. Not sure at all.
 
went back to the crime area yesterday. Also, actually near salzmann's parking lot and sized up all his cameras....because....on the audio tapes, a reporter asked Parker if there's any credence to Salzmann saying that 2 or 3 people could have seen Lauren after POIs. Parker of course says, "we won't be discussing that."

Sitting on the front steps by the clock, you can't be seen on camera. Walk up those steps to the arcade, and you can be seen on camera. Walk a little north on the arcade about 25 feet, and you come to the middle steps. Sit on the 3rd step down, and look directly across the street and you will be staring right into the camera on Salzmann's north wall. BTW, in case anyone doesn't know, Salzmann's office is right on the northeast corner of 10th and College.

He has another camera on the northwest side of the front of his building pointed northwest and possibly, but not very efficiently, may cover someone for a few feet on the sidewalk a little north of those steps. If you go up the steps,this leads to the arcade (now you're on 10th and C camera)and an inner courtyard that they could have entered, from there they could have "ducked"(PIs words) into a vestibule, small and unlocked, where they could have buzzed ZC's apt.
I was very wrong about these vestibules, 4 or 5 of them, being locked. But I wasn't wrong about being able to "duck" into one from the alley. Want to clear up something about this alley they emerged from. It divides 10th and College Apartments from 10th and College Village town homes.
There are no vestibules to duck into at all on the right side, the 10th and College side. On the left side, the 10th and Villages side, there are two separate small courtyards, 30 or so feet apart
that you can "duck" into, but to get in the 3 vestibules, you need keys. Once in, there's no buzzing, you just enter and go to wherever. At the end wall of each courtyard, there is a gate, locked on both sides, that leads to Morton St. Again, at that time, no cameras on Morton St. side.
Who may have lived at 10th and Villages, or had access to their courtyard gates, etc and might be
involved? don't have a clue, just wondering.

But then, the PIs have them going back and making their way up the alley, which would be very out of the way, they could easily finish walking the arcade and exit into the ally that leads to Morton St and the gravel lot.

This leads me to believe that they don't have Lauren on video sitting on the steps, unless it is salzmann's video, and that camera points directly at the center, middle steps on College. IMO,
they only have her going up the alley at that time (2:45?) and are inserting eyewitness testimony into the video narrative also Salzmann's video and are purposely doing this to rattle POIs.
JMO, but i think the POIs are lying about everything that happened after 2:51, I guess that's understood, but not only what they've said happened to her, and their role in "letting her leave" but who else was involved. For their story to work and exculpate everyone, they had to eliminate all snags and reduce it to just them. JMO, what happened finally, happened on the west side, no cameras, so they thought they could make up that story, but then along comes Carl's camera pointing straight, directly at those steps. And, JMO, MOO, IMHO, it was after 2:51.

.
 
Ixchel13 said:
went back to the crime area yesterday. Also, actually went into salzmann's parking lot and sized up all his cameras....because....on the audio tapes, a reporter asked Parker if there's any credence to Salzmann saying that 2 or 3 people could have seen Lauren after POIs. Parker of course says, "we won't be discussing that."
Click to expand...
<snipped for question>

Didn't Salzmann say that 2 to 3 people after his client (CR), may have seen her (not 2 to 3 people after the POI)?

I.e. JR, MB (and possibly guest)?
 
AbbeyR said:
<snipped for question>

Didn't Salzmann say that 2 to 3 people after his client (CR), may have seen her (not 2 to 3 people after the POI)?

I.e. JR, MB (and possibly guest)?
Click to expand...

why would Salzmann willingly, even cheerfully hand over video if his client was doing such and such a thing? Because he really wasn't in it? or, was someone else in the video with them, another non-5N POI? All this is possible especially if CR can't remember. If Salzmann were served a warrant for that video, it would have been all over town.

Yes, he could be referring to JR, MB, and DB, but to refer to MB would be to raise his ire and then would he alibi CR so well after that? So, I'm going to eliminate MB. So we have enough left for JR, DB and one more person.
 
Ixchel13 said:
I think both Jacobite and I were talking about when Lauren and CR were making their way up to 5N, not if Lauren was able to walk away at 4:30.

None of us can say if she could walk away at 4:30. But we know she wasn't unconscious when she emerged from the alley and started towards 5N;
one of the only real facts of the case that is given to us by LE is that she was
"very much alive" when she emerged from the alley. PIs back this up.

Something else happened after that. Lauren's head injury could have gradually through the next hour gotten worse. Sifting through all of the back comments on several websites, there are rumors of another confrontation
near 5N. IMO, there could have been.

We focus on the last 3 to see her. Going back through all of the "evidence", i.e. trial by public opinion, people have alot to say about JW, ZO and HT. Things we are not allowed to say here (that's a good thing!) are said with frequency.
IOW, not all public opinion just focuses on last 3.

This is not to defend them. the 3 5N POIs are definitely involved, IMO. But I think more people were directly involved.

And so does LE. From the beginning, and 3 years later, they won't release POI status on anyone. Until someone cracks, they want these people to carry this weight for the rest of their lives. JMO

Here are some possible POIs, according to LE definition in this case, people who were closely with Lauren before she disappeared, and why I think they are POIs in particular.

MB, CR, JR--it's obvious, last with her, stories don't match, 2 provided alcohol.

JW--wasn't where he said he was, at least, plus Bo D. added, "and all that...."

HT--possibly was at altercation and didn't help, defended POIs in the media before police could question them, possible story doesn't match, didn't come forward willingly IMO, had some of Lauren's possessions from that night possibly,
and of course other things we aren't aware of. JMO

ZO--punched Lauren's date, made it impossible for them to stay at SW (IMO),
lied about reason for altercation, and although we don't know, LE probably has his movements after the altercation on camera. JMO

DB--his only alibi is another POI, had the means to transport Lauren out of state. JMO

ZC-Last coherent thing Lauren did was to try and get in her apt. Why?
Didn't help Lauren. Was witness to many interactions that evening but did not come forward for over a year. Left the country. she's sketchy, JMO

Not sure if AB and BB are the other two. Not sure at all.
Click to expand...

agree with everything you say, but pretty sure ZC currently lives in Philly.
 
Ixchel13 said:
went back to the crime area yesterday. Also, actually near salzmann's parking lot and sized up all his cameras....because....on the audio tapes, a reporter asked Parker if there's any credence to Salzmann saying that 2 or 3 people could have seen Lauren after POIs. Parker of course says, "we won't be discussing that."

Sitting on the front steps by the clock, you can't be seen on camera. Walk up those steps to the arcade, and you can be seen on camera. Walk a little north on the arcade about 25 feet, and you come to the middle steps. Sit on the 3rd step down, and look directly across the street and you will be staring right into the camera on Salzmann's north wall. BTW, in case anyone doesn't know, Salzmann's office is right on the northeast corner of 10th and College.

He has another camera on the northwest side of the front of his building pointed northwest and possibly, but not very efficiently, may cover someone for a few feet on the sidewalk a little north of those steps. If you go up the steps,this leads to the arcade (now you're on 10th and C camera)and an inner courtyard that they could have entered, from there they could have "ducked"(PIs words) into a vestibule, small and unlocked, where they could have buzzed ZC's apt.
I was very wrong about these vestibules, 4 or 5 of them, being locked. But I wasn't wrong about being able to "duck" into one from the alley. Want to clear up something about this alley they emerged from. It divides 10th and College Apartments from 10th and College Village town homes.
There are no vestibules to duck into at all on the right side, the 10th and College side. On the left side, the 10th and Villages side, there are two separate small courtyards, 30 or so feet apart
that you can "duck" into, but to get in the 3 vestibules, you need keys. Once in, there's no buzzing, you just enter and go to wherever. At the end wall of each courtyard, there is a gate, locked on both sides, that leads to Morton St. Again, at that time, no cameras on Morton St. side.
Who may have lived at 10th and Villages, or had access to their courtyard gates, etc and might be
involved? don't have a clue, just wondering.

But then, the PIs have them going back and making their way up the alley, which would be very out of the way, they could easily finish walking the arcade and exit into the ally that leads to Morton St and the gravel lot.

This leads me to believe that they don't have Lauren on video sitting on the steps, unless it is salzmann's video, and that camera points directly at the center, middle steps on College. IMO,
they only have her going up the alley at that time (2:45?) and are inserting eyewitness testimony into the video narrative also Salzmann's video and are purposely doing this to rattle POIs.
JMO, but i think the POIs are lying about everything that happened after 2:51, I guess that's understood, but not only what they've said happened to her, and their role in "letting her leave" but who else was involved. For their story to work and exculpate everyone, they had to eliminate all snags and reduce it to just them. JMO, what happened finally, happened on the west side, no cameras, so they thought they could make up that story, but then along comes Carl's camera pointing straight, directly at those steps. And, JMO, MOO, IMHO, it was after 2:51.

.
Click to expand...

wasn't it on record that at the time this camera was point directly down toward the down to his law firm? is it now faced upward?
 
Ixchel13 said:
I think both Jacobite and I were talking about when Lauren and CR were making their way up to 5N, not if Lauren was able to walk away at 4:30.

None of us can say if she could walk away at 4:30. But we know she wasn't unconscious when she emerged from the alley and started towards 5N;
one of the only real facts of the case that is given to us by LE is that she was
"very much alive" when she emerged from the alley. PIs back this up.

Something else happened after that. Lauren's head injury could have gradually through the next hour gotten worse. Sifting through all of the back comments on several websites, there are rumors of another confrontation
near 5N. IMO, there could have been.

We focus on the last 3 to see her. Going back through all of the "evidence", i.e. trial by public opinion, people have alot to say about JW, ZO and HT. Things we are not allowed to say here (that's a good thing!) are said with frequency.
IOW, not all public opinion just focuses on last 3.

This is not to defend them. the 3 5N POIs are definitely involved, IMO. But I think more people were directly involved.

And so does LE. From the beginning, and 3 years later, they won't release POI status on anyone. Until someone cracks, they want these people to carry this weight for the rest of their lives. JMO

Here are some possible POIs, according to LE definition in this case, people who were closely with Lauren before she disappeared, and why I think they are POIs in particular.

MB, CR, JR--it's obvious, last with her, stories don't match, 2 provided alcohol.

JW--wasn't where he said he was, at least, plus Bo D. added, "and all that...."

HT--possibly was at altercation and didn't help, defended POIs in the media before police could question them, possible story doesn't match, didn't come forward willingly IMO, had some of Lauren's possessions from that night possibly,
and of course other things we aren't aware of. JMO

ZO--punched Lauren's date, made it impossible for them to stay at SW (IMO),
lied about reason for altercation, and although we don't know, LE probably has his movements after the altercation on camera. JMO

DB--his only alibi is another POI, had the means to transport Lauren out of state. JMO

ZC-Last coherent thing Lauren did was to try and get in her apt. Why?
Didn't help Lauren. Was witness to many interactions that evening but did not come forward for over a year. Left the country. she's sketchy, JMO

Not sure if AB and BB are the other two. Not sure at all.
Click to expand...
AF may be another "friend from home" at JR's, and therefore a POI.

LE must know if the "friends from home" were able to corroborate JR's story and if their stories fit.

Anyone know how much time it would take for someone to go from so drunk they are incapacitated to able to walk?
 
Ixchel13 said:
Yes, he could be referring to JR, MB, and DB, but to refer to MB would be to raise his ire and then would he alibi CR so well after that? So, I'm going to eliminate MB. So we have enough left for JR, DB and one more person.
Click to expand...

Why do you think it would anger MB to have Salzmann confirm that he saw Lauren after CR? Hasn't CR's 'alibi' always been that MB put him to bed, which places MB (and JR) with Lauren after him? This is the one part of MB's story that doesn't appear to have changed since his lawyer's first statements.
 
elmorejames said:
wasn't it on record that at the time this camera was point directly down toward the down to his law firm? is it now faced upward?
Click to expand...

he has multiple cameras. The one on the north side cannot be pointed at the firm as it is on the north wall and back more than half way and points right at those stairs.
 
elmorejames said:
wasn't it on record that at the time this camera was point directly down toward the down to his law firm? is it now faced upward?
Click to expand...
That became the consensus after Btown posted this picture with his observations.

Post 294 in Thread #4

Btown said:
Salzman's Law Office, East side of College. Corner of College & 10th. Across from 10th & College Apartments. His cameras point at his parking lot. I don't think they get the sidewalk or the road.

d3BcE0z.jpg
Click to expand...
 
bessie said:
That became the consensus after Btown posted this picture with his observations.

Post 294 in Thread #4
Click to expand...

yes, those circled are the front cameras. Now, look on the left wall, way back and up and you'll see another camera, white to match wall. It looks like a speck but it's a camera!This is the one that points to steps, not front right and left cameras. On the south wall, he also has two cameras, one pointing west and the other points south east. So, that I know of, he's got 2 in the front, 1 on the left side (north) and 2 on the right (south) side. Now I didn't trespass into the back of his property but I'm guessing more camera(s). guy's got cameras. Not doubting BTown, but this camera on the north wall is not hidden by any means and points directly, makes a beeline, to those center steps. Maybe if Ma Houston can blow the pic up we can see it.:please::loveyou: --just using the zoom button I blew it up to 500% and could see the camera, but if done correctly, it should be crystal clear.

the north front camera points across his front sidewalk, across the street and covers maybe a few feet of the sidewalk in front of 10th and College. The south front camera, on the right, points to the front door of
his office and the area in front of that incl. the middle of parking lot.
 
I presume you're referring to-

VHiflwH.jpg

I tried to enhance the photo a bit, but IMO from seeing it in person, it isn't a camera.

wJp76WN.png
 
Ixchel13 said:
why would Salzmann willingly, even cheerfully hand over video if his client was doing such and such a thing? Because he really wasn't in it? or, was someone else in the video with them, another non-5N POI? All this is possible especially if CR can't remember. If Salzmann were served a warrant for that video, it would have been all over town.

Yes, he could be referring to JR, MB, and DB, but to refer to MB would be to raise his ire and then would he alibi CR so well after that? So, I'm going to eliminate MB. So we have enough left for JR, DB and one more person.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I follow your question but if you are wondering about the video and attorney/client relationship I don't see how the video would apply. Arguably it might apply if LE wanted it to see if MB was going to the law office, but to see it to see random passerbys on the street, one of which (or more) could be clients of the attorney would be irrelevant I'd think.
Therefore there wouldn't be much to be gained by requiring a warrant, and there could even be a PR issue if he delayed handing over video that might be helpful in finding a missing Bloomington resident.

And if LE as a matter of efficiency and thoroughness (basically crossing t's and dotting i's) got a warrant I don't know that we'd necessarily know about it if it was handled in a matter of fact method with nobody objecting and no battering rams and major police presence. Which goes back to the attorney agreeing to release the video with no hiccups. Considering his connections and lines of communication professional courtesies could've applied both ways.
 
bx2 said:
I presume you're referring to-



I tried to enhance the photo a bit, but IMO from seeing it in person, it isn't a camera.
Click to expand...

thanks BX2! It looks like a camera, I'll double check it today.
 
Ros said:
Based on this chart and what we know, it would appear that LS had a BAC of 0.2 or more.
http://www.brad21.org/effects_at_specific_bac.html

Assuming that she was sobering up at the standard rate of .016 BAC per hour and she stopped drinking by 1:30 (when did she leave Kilroy's?), by 4:30 her BAC would be down by .048, which, at .152 or more, is still very intoxicated. http://www.drinkfox.com/information/alcohol-metabolism

I don't think she would have passed a "walk test."
Click to expand...
According to this early timeline, she arrived at Kilroy's at 1:48 and left at 2:27.

So we are expected to believe that in less than two hours time she went from being unable to stand or walk unassisted, falling without doing anything to breaker her fall, etc. to being able to walk without stumbling?

I wonder what an expert on alcohol toxicity would have to say about the probability of such a scenario?
 
Interesting responses all around regarding an attempt to estimate Lauren's state and therefore decide (as best we can) if she actually left JRs. To look at the question a different way, is it possible LS took something after her and CR left SW that increased her coordination, at least for a short period of time? Do we have someone in the group that has some expertise/scientific background on drug mixing? We have alcohol, klonopin and a possible "upper" what would the possible results be?

For example, it is extremely mainstream in this age age group to snort adderall ("an upper") after a night of heavy drinking to party for a few more hours. I've seen people multiple times who should call it a night (eyes drooping/leaning on a friend) that (stupidly) snort adderall and gain a another 1-2 hrs of partying. They still appear clearly intoxicated/on something but are now alert. Their coordination may be sloppy but now appear semi-functional and almost slightly hyper, but in a mellow way (I know that is an oxymoron, but the best I can describe it).

IMO, I am leaning toward a theory that involves the CR/MB/JR actually telling the truth (however I am always open to changing my mind). Would it be possible that LS and CR took an upper of some kind on their way home to CR's or if LS took something alone while MB was taking care of CR? Thus MB/JR not knowing additional drugs were added? Or maybe MB/JR took an upper with her (which could be something they initially/are still lying about). Either way, it appeared to stabilize her and then she left?

Im not excusing JR letting her walk home alone, even if they were sober, the situation would have been handled wrong, IMO. It is just interesting to speculate because if possible, at the same time it offers a more reasonable but even more dangerous scenario of LS leaving JRs. If LS had a mini burst of energy (although her body was probably getting ready to collapse and she/JR didnt realize it) was she going home/was she going to another friend's none of us had heard of (including JR)/run into someone and think she was ok to keep partying/heading somewhere else.....?
 
Ros said:
Based on this chart and what we know, it would appear that LS had a BAC of 0.2 or more.
http://www.brad21.org/effects_at_specific_bac.html
Click to expand...

Thanks for those links, Ros.

Based on the descriptions of Lauren falling repeatedly and the adjectives that people used to describe Lauren (incapacitated, non-responsive, in a stupor...) I agree that they would match up with (at a minimum) 0.2

0.20 BAC: Felling dazed, confused or otherwise disoriented. May need help to stand or walk. If you injure yourself you may not feel the pain. Some people experience nausea and vomiting at this level. The gag reflex is impaired and you can choke if you do vomit. Blackouts are likely at this level so you may not remember what has happened.

0.25 BAC: All mental, physical and sensory functions are severely impaired. Increased risk of asphyxiation from choking on vomit and of seriously injuring yourself by falls or other accidents.

0.30 BAC: STUPOR. You have little comprehension of where you are. You may pass out suddenly and be difficult to awaken.

0.35 BAC: Coma is possible. This is the level of surgical anesthesia.

0.40 BAC and up: Onset of coma, and possible death due to
respiratory arrest.
Click to expand...

The charts on that website give a good indication too of how easily someone her size can become dangerously intoxicated.
 
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