IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[AbbeyR]

You keep pointing that out about the alley, but that's not even what they say.

Here is the part about ducking into the building from the article:

On the next block, she sat down on a staircase and fell backward, slamming her head on the concrete step. The thud was loud enough for a young woman to hear it and ask whether she was all right.

According to the woman, Rossman replied, “She’s OK, I’ll take care of it.”

As Rossman and Spierer continued up the street, she fell hard and didn’t raise her hands to cushion the blow as her face hit the ground. A few steps later, she fell again.

They then ducked into an apartment complex, called 10th & College, and knocked on the door of four female students who were at the party earlier. No one answered, and they left. At this point, Rossman had Spierer slung across his back and was carrying her.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/NEWS02/306030045/ (p4)


And even with the repeating sound bite, it's still not clear (to me!) if or how this part is a mistake.

 

[Ixchel13]

You keep pointing that out about the alley, but that's not even what they say.

Here is the part about ducking into the building from the article:


http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/NEWS02/306030045/ (p4)


And even with the repeating sound bite, it's still not clear (to me!) if or how this part is a mistake.

so, how can they emerge from the alley if they went up the street? see that's what I mean. And, you cannot knock on anyone's door at 10th and C. There's an unlocked vestibule that allows you to be buzzed in.
But....if ZC lived at 10th and the Villages, they could, if the door was open,
duck into the courtyard from the left of the alley and knock on a door at 10th and V. Once you get in the locked vestibule, you're in the whole place, there's mailboxes for everyone and you can just walk up to any door and knock.
But see, they're telling us ZC lived in 10th and C not V. If she did live at 10th and V, that's an entirely different story. No cameras on the Morton side of 10th and V.
When I get home from work, I may decide to tear the entire video narrative up sentence by sentence . and point out the many flaws.
have a nice day!:seeya:

 

[VeryVeritas]

You keep pointing that out about the alley, but that's not even what they say.

Here is the part about ducking into the building from the article:


http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/NEWS02/306030045/ (p4)


And even with the repeating sound bite, it's still not clear (to me!) if or how this part is a mistake.

Thanks for going through that and posting it again.
I'm now realizing that the "thud" witness and ZC cannot be the same people. Is the "thud" witness the misplaced bartender?

 

[sammi89]

Thanks for going through that and posting it again.
I'm now realizing that the "thud" witness and ZC cannot be the same people. Is the "thud" witness the misplaced bartender?

Wasn't the bartender described as "older" by the PIs? The article Abbey quoted described the "thud" witness as a "young woman" so it might not be the bartender witness (imo).

 

[AbbeyR]

Thanks for going through that and posting it again.
I'm now realizing that the "thud" witness and ZC cannot be the same people. Is the "thud" witness the misplaced bartender?

Yes, I believe there's only one witness who described that scene. It's the witness that both Gatto and the PIs interviewed who saw Lauren fall and hit her head and then a man [Corey] carrying her. Gatto described her as a manager of a local bar. She is described by the PIs as a young woman. In the video interview, they say she is a "female witness... not a college student, she's a little bit older."

So yeah, I don't think it could be ZC. ZC was reported to be sleeping and didn't answer the door. Plus, the witness wasn't a student, worked at a bar, and didn't know Lauren or Corey, according to the reports.

 

[Ixchel13]

Yes, I believe there's only one witness who described that scene. It's the witness that both Gatto and the PIs interviewed who saw Lauren fall and hit her head and then a man [Corey] carrying her. Gatto described her as a manager of a local bar. She is described by the PIs as a young woman. In the video interview, they say she is a "female witness... not a college student, she's a little bit older."

So yeah, I don't think it could be ZC. ZC was reported to be sleeping and didn't answer the door. Plus, the witness wasn't a student, worked at a bar, and didn't know Lauren or Corey, according to the reports.

BBM:The witness looked at photos of CR and said it wasn't him who picked up Lauren and carried her. Is that why you put [Corey} in brackets? Whether or not we believe what the witness says, should we paraphrase what she reported by inserting what LE and PIs think she saw? I mean the witness doesn't agree with the time she saw Lauren, or the description of the man she saw carrying Lauren. And yet, LE doesn't discount her as seeing Lauren. And if LE has since found out she was telling the truth about the time, do you think they're going to come on WS and say, whoops we made a mistake, she did see Lauren at that time? Or will they use it to their advantage? Or have they already done that?

 

[AbbeyR]

The witness saw a girl [later identified to be Lauren] fall and hit her head. She was with a man [later identified to be Corey Rossman], who picked her up and carried her. Based on the fact that the girl is reported to be Lauren and the man, Corey, in several MSM articles - yes, we can use his name.

Once again, the quote I just posted above:

On the next block, she sat down on a staircase and fell backward, slamming her head on the concrete step. The thud was loud enough for a young woman to hear it and ask whether she was all right.

According to the woman, Rossman replied, “She’s OK, I’ll take care of it.”

As Rossman and Spierer continued up the street, she fell hard and didn’t raise her hands to cushion the blow as her face hit the ground. A few steps later, she fell again.

They then ducked into an apartment complex, called 10th & College, and knocked on the door of four female students who were at the party earlier. No one answered, and they left. At this point, Rossman had Spierer slung across his back and was carrying her.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/NEWS02/306030045/ (p4)

 

[sammi89]

Yes, I believe there's only one witness who described that scene. It's the witness that both Gatto and the PIs interviewed who saw Lauren fall and hit her head and then a man [Corey] carrying her. Gatto described her as a manager of a local bar. She is described by the PIs as a young woman. In the video interview, they say she is a "female witness... not a college student, she's a little bit older."

So yeah, I don't think it could be ZC. ZC was reported to be sleeping and didn't answer the door. Plus, the witness wasn't a student, worked at a bar, and didn't know Lauren or Corey, according to the reports.

Disregard my earlier post. A young woman could be "a little bit older" than a college student. Thanks for the correct quote.

 

[Ixchel13]

The witness saw a girl [later identified to be Lauren] fall and hit her head. She was with a man [later identified to be Corey Rossman], who picked her up and carried her. Based on the fact that the girl is reported to be Lauren and the man, Corey, in several MSM articles - yes, we can use his name.

Once again, the quote I just posted above:



http://www.lohud.com/article/20120603/NEWS02/306030045/ (p4)

she was shown pic of CR and said it was not him. She also must have been shown a pic of Lauren. Of course we can use his name--he was seen in an alley with Lauren on video. In all of the narratives, they never say Lauren is seen on video
smacking her head. Corey conveniently can't verify this. Just the witness, and she says the man with Lauren is not Corey.

You cannot "duck into" 10th and College and knock on a door. It has unlocked tiny vestibules where you can be buzzed in.
However, at 10th and V==accessible from the alley from 2 small courtyards, the entry door is locked. If you have a key, you can get right in and go to any apt., plus the key works in the 2 courtyards each for a gate that opens on to Morton St.

So it's:

10th and College--unlocked vestibule, have to be buzzed in to get to an apt. No apts on first floor to knock if you could.
10th and V--locked vestibule, but with key, can get into the main hallways and exit from outside locked gates in courtyards off the left side of the alley they supposedly emerged from. Gates open up to sidewalk on Morton St., at the time of LS disappearance, no cameras.

The distinction being that at 10th and C, someone has to buzz you in, and at 10th and V, someone could loan you their key for full access. (also to pool and fitness center, which 10th and C people can't go in.)

IMO, someone knew someone who lived at 10th and V, maybe even a party there that night.

 

[I Jules]

Regarding Salzmann's cameras: it seems to me that some posters do not have a clear picture of the scene at 10th and College. The camera, or I should say camera's (2) at Salzmann's are across the street from the 10th & College apartments and presumably, imho, possible scene of the sighting on Lauren hitting her head witnessed by the bar manager. I repeat, across the street, a street with 3 lanes with trees between those 2 cameras and the west side of the street at 10th and College.

The point is that Lauren was on the West side of College, across the street from those cameras. It is highly unlikely Lauren walked from 11th to 10th on the east side of the street, where Salzmann's cameras are located. It seems to me some posters don't understand the basic geography. Which is extremely important regarding her location at 10th & College and subsequent plausible movements/events theories.

I would be interested in Ixchel13s opinion of my observation, or other locals too. Just trying to help clarify something important to me.

 

[AbbeyR]

No, I think it's clear that Salzmann's office is across the street from 10th and college. There are also pics here of the area that we have for reference:

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


That's why there were questions about the angle and range of the cameras.

 

[AbbeyR]

10th and College--unlocked vestibule, have to be buzzed in to get to an apt. No apts on first floor to knock if you could.
10th and V--locked vestibule, but with key, can get into the main hallways and exit from outside locked gates in courtyards off the left side of the alley they supposedly emerged from. Gates open up to sidewalk on Morton St., at the time of LS disappearance, no cameras.

The distinction being that at 10th and C, someone has to buzz you in, and at 10th and V, someone could loan you their key for full access. (also to pool and fitness center, which 10th and C people can't go in.)

<snipped for space>

I'm trying my best to follow what you've been saying about this...

From what I understand:

- The PIs don't state that they went into the building from an entrance directly from the alley (see quote above and/ or the video)
- They do specifically say they were at ZC's at 10th and college
- Presumably any of the apartment buildings could be accessed if one had a key to get in, right?
- Assuming they didn't, at 10th and college, one could either buzz up/ call or possibly go in as someone else is coming or going
- 'knocking on the door' may or may not literally mean 'knocking on a door,' (just as 'no one was home' does not always mean literally no one was home, but that no one answered)

Just wondering about the possibilities... Either way, these buildings all have video security, so I'm sure they know exactly who came and went from them.

 

[sammi89]

<snipped for space>

I'm trying my best to follow what you've been saying about this...

From what I understand:

- The PIs don't state that they went into the building from an entrance directly from the alley (see quote above and/ or the video)
- They do specifically say they were at ZC's at 10th and college
- Presumably any of the apartment buildings could be accessed if one had a key to get in, right?
- Assuming they didn't, at 10th and college, one could either buzz up/ call or possibly go in as someone else is coming or going
- 'knocking on the door' may or may not literally mean 'knocking on a door,' (just as 'no one was home' does not always mean literally no one was home, but that no one answered)

Just wondering about the possibilities... Either way, these buildings all have video security, so I'm sure they know exactly who came and went from them.

I'm not sure how these buildings work, but it's not like these particular POIs are above trying to break into apartment complexes with credit cards or "force" anyway...

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/28/news.qp-3857730.sto

Rossman is on the Smallwood Plaza “no trespass” list following an Oct. 31, 2010, incident at the complex. At 2:58 a.m., Bloomington police found Rossman and Rosenbaum attempting to enter Smallwood with a credit card, according to Bloomington police logs. Officers also reported the two said they could enter the complex by force.

 

[Ixchel13]

<snipped for space>

I'm trying my best to follow what you've been saying about this...

From what I understand:

- The PIs don't state that they went into the building from an entrance directly from the alley (see quote above and/ or the video)
- They do specifically say they were at ZC's at 10th and college
- Presumably any of the apartment buildings could be accessed if one had a key to get in, right?
- Assuming they didn't, at 10th and college, one could either buzz up/ call or possibly go in as someone else is coming or going
- 'knocking on the door' may or may not literally mean 'knocking on a door,' (just as 'no one was home' does not always mean literally no one was home, but that no one answered)

Just wondering about the possibilities... Either way, these buildings all have video security, so I'm sure they know exactly who came and went from them.

see, what I'm getting from some responses is that anything the PIs or LoHud says that turns out to be impossible, wrong time, redundant, is ok to run with, we are to second guess what they might have meant, etc, when really, the. video and written narratives are cobbled together both by PIs, MSM, and LE and also paraphrased, IMO, and fair game for critique.JMO, and nothing will change that short of convicting perps and/or finding Lauren.:twocents::moo::

 

[Ixchel13]

Regarding Salzmann's cameras: it seems to me that some posters do not have a clear picture of the scene at 10th and College. The camera, or I should say camera's (2) at Salzmann's are across the street from the 10th & College apartments and presumably, imho, possible scene of the sighting on Lauren hitting her head witnessed by the bar manager. I repeat, across the street, a street with 3 lanes with trees between those 2 cameras and the west side of the street at 10th and College.

The point is that Lauren was on the West side of College, across the street from those cameras. It is highly unlikely Lauren walked from 11th to 10th on the east side of the street, where Salzmann's cameras are located. It seems to me some posters don't understand the basic geography. Which is extremely important regarding her location at 10th & College and subsequent plausible movements/events theories.

I would be interested in Ixchel13s opinion of my observation, or other locals too. Just trying to help clarify something important to me.

Salzmann turned in camera footage and it was said that Lauren did not show up walking south on College. That sort of indicates that his cameras may have that kind of range, IDK. If they do have that range, then camera on north side could pick up people on the middle steps, IMO.

 

[AbbeyR]

see, what I'm getting from some responses is that anything the PIs or LoHud says that turns out to be impossible, wrong time, redundant, is ok to run with, we are to second guess what they might have meant, etc, when really, the. video and written narratives are cobbled together both by PIs, MSM, and LE and also paraphrased, IMO, and fair game for critique.JMO, and nothing will change that short of convicting perps and/or finding Lauren.:twocents::moo::

I was really just trying to get a better understanding of what it is that you are trying to critique. It seems like a lot of the points that you are fixed on are things that were never actually reported (For example, your many posts about how it is impossible to get into 10th and college from the alley). Although you keep saying there are many things that are 'impossible' about the LoHud timeline, it's not at all clear what they are. JMO

 

[Ixchel13]

I was really just trying to get a better understanding of what it is that you are trying to critique. It seems like a lot of the points that you are fixed on are things that were never actually reported (For example, your many posts about how it is impossible to get into 10th and college from the alley). Although you keep saying there are many things that are 'impossible' about the LoHud timeline, it's not at all clear what they are. JMO

IF the alley in question that they emerged from at 2:51 is in fact the alley that runs between 10th and College apts and 10th and Villages town homes, may I describe it as a local?

First, about the arcade at 10th and C. If you're up on the arcade, there are 2 unlocked vestibules that you can enter and wait to be buzzed in. Behind the arcade there is a large courtyard with fountains and 3 unlocked vestibules, same buzz in procedures.

The alley is very upwardly steep. The right side of the alley is the 10th and C side. As you move up the alley, to the right, there are no vestibules to get into 10th and C, the parking garage is on the other side of the wall. The right side of alley offers no access whatsoever to 10th and C.



On the left side of the alley, the 10th and V side, after about 25 feet, there is an opening that leads into a small courtyard. This court yard has about 10 parking spaces, and 3 locked vestibules, plus a locked outside gate that leads
directly to the sidewalk on Morton Street. Next to the gate is a locked vestibule that when opened, allows access to all of the town homes. On the left side of the courtyard, a locked vestibule leads to the clubhouse. On the right side of the courtyard, another locked vestibule leading to townhomes.

Go another 25-35 feet up the steep alley and there is another courtyard off the side of the alley, with the same 3 locked vestibules and locked gate. The gates are locked from both sides, accessible by key, and the north gate on the outside is titled, "Morton St. North Entrance". These gates are nice, black wrought iron gates set into brick covered with ivy, nice IOW.

It's easy to brand both complexes divided by the alley as "10th and College" but they are not the same. Especially when 10th and V borders Morton St, west side of complexes, no cameras at that time and much closer to 5N via the gravel lot.

Are the video narrative mistakes just a matter of semantics? For example, if you aren't buzzed in, you can't knock on a door at 10th and C. And are we to believe that "knock on a door" is a matter of speech? And are we to believe that the PIs merely, mistakenly repeated themselves, or do they have them on camera walking up 2 alleys?
Because at the time, there was another alley leading from SW to 10th and C. This is the alley where Lauren could have fallen, If that were true, then, the original timeline of 3:15 by the gravel lot could be correct.

Does anyone remember the rumors on MSM that Lauren argued with
some men behind SW after leaving SW with CR? Maybe they were being pursued when they left SW after the altercation.

Listen to the PI narrative, not the interview with Bo Dietl, the one with Mike C. They talk about Lauren sitting on the stairs, and name Corey a few times as being in it, then, he says something like, "and, pause, pause HE was sitting on the stairs," but with a strange emphasis as if HE wasn't CR. JMO

I need to transcribe,the narrative, word for word, not explanations in brackets, paraphrases, etc, so that I can point out the other mistakes and sketchiness in the video narrative, and that's going to take time. Articles from LoHud and MSM links simply will not do. I don't believe there are out and out mistakes unless they are on purpose, or, it could be we may be believing what we want to believe so as to fit it into the collective idea of what happened.

I can remember at the beginning, and even still, we believed for some reason Lauren fell after emerging from the alley at 2:51 and that is not in the narrative. She is caught somewhere else along the way doing that. Qualters even refuses to name the alley she was seen in, saying that he will only admit she was travelling south to north.We have them making their way up the alley, and emerging from it at 2:51.

But the narrative Abbey posted with the witness has them just continuing up the street. Can we have it both ways?
Or did she make her way up the alley, and later was she carried up the street? Street and alley run parallel.

 

[Vidocq]

IF
...
It's easy to brand both complexes divided by the alley as "10th and College" but they are not the same. Especially when 10th and V borders Morton St, west side of complexes, no cameras at that time and much closer to 5N via the gravel lot.
...

My fellow web sleuths, I managed to get in contact with Shawn Cohen last night on the phone. The first question I asked him was "Did ZC live in Tenth & College or Tenth & College Village?" He seemed unfamiliar with the distinction in names. (In his defense, he didn't have his notes in front of him, and he's busy working on another story now.) But he said, facing "up hill" (north), it was the one "to the left". So, based on that, you are absolutely right, Ixchel13, "apartment at 10th & College", or whatever he said on the video was (slightly) misleading: Mr. Cohen was, in fact, referring to Tenth & College Village, according to him, on the phone with me last night.

This explains the PIs seeming to have footage of CR carrying Lauren away from ZC's door. Shawn Cohen wasn't sure, but he said he believed that said description was based on video, not a witness. So, CR and Lauren must have ducked into T&CV, as you suspected, then continued down the alley, getting caught on camera, for the last time, as they left the alley at 2:51. Three minutes still strikes me as quick to even duck in, and still get down the alley, with all the stumbling. But, maybe the 2:48 time is when she *re-entered* the alley, after the failed visit to ZC. That would make the time more believable.

Mr. Cohen didn't, off of the top of his head, have information about which of Lauren's possessions were found in the alley, vs at Smallwood. I brought up Gatto's 3:38 witness. He seemed as if he hadn't ever seriously considered the 3:38 time as being accurate. He said he was never able to interview the 3:38 witness, but that he'd like to. I argued for the theory that Lauren wandered away from 5N at 3:30, and was taken into Tenth & College at 3:38, after being seen by the bar worker.

I expressed suspicion that a group of run-of-the-mill partiers would spontaneously hide a body, or hide it this well. SC, on the other hand, thought it possible that a group might hide a body, due to an overdose, and that such a body might not be found for a long time. It was exciting to talk to someone so close to the actual investigation.

Speaking of Gatto, I can't find an e-mail for Tony Gatto anywhere. Does anyone have an idea how I could get an e-mail to him? I want to ask him about the bar-worker witness.

 

[Ixchel13]

My fellow web sleuths, I managed to get in contact with Shawn Cohen last night on the phone. The first question I asked him was "Did ZC live in Tenth & College or Tenth & College Village?" He seemed unfamiliar with the distinction in names. (In his defense, he didn't have his notes in front of him, and he's busy working on another story now.) But he said, facing "up hill" (north), it was the one "to the left". So, based on that, you are absolutely right, Ixchel13, "apartment at 10th & College", or whatever he said on the video was (slightly) misleading: Mr. Cohen was, in fact, referring to Tenth & College Village, according to him, on the phone with me last night.

This explains the PIs seeming to have footage of CR carrying Lauren away from ZC's door. Shawn Cohen wasn't sure, but he said he believed that said description was based on video, not a witness. So, CR and Lauren must have ducked into T&CV, as you suspected, then continued down the alley, getting caught on camera, for the last time, as they left the alley at 2:51. Three minutes still strikes me as quick to even duck in, and still get down the alley, with all the stumbling. But, maybe the 2:48 time is when she *re-entered* the alley, after the failed visit to ZC. That would make the time more believable.

Mr. Cohen didn't, off of the top of his head, have information about which of Lauren's possessions were found in the alley, vs at Smallwood. I brought up Gatto's 3:38 witness. He seemed as if he hadn't ever seriously considered the 3:38 time as being accurate. He said he was never able to interview the 3:38 witness, but that he'd like to. I argued for the theory that Lauren wandered away from 5N at 3:30, and was taken into Tenth & College at 3:38, after being seen by the bar worker.

I expressed suspicion that a group of run-of-the-mill partiers would spontaneously hide a body, or hide it this well. SC, on the other hand, thought it possible that a group might hide a body, due to an overdose, and that such a body might not be found for a long time. It was exciting to talk to someone so close to the actual investigation.

Speaking of Gatto, I can't find an e-mail for Tony Gatto anywhere. Does anyone have an idea how I could get an e-mail to him? I want to ask him about the bar-worker witness.

she could have wandered out CRs door, turned left and would be right on the corner of 11th and Morton. turned left, gone 25-30 ft and be at first townhome of 10th and V not C. no cameras on this west side at that time.

IMO, when something happened to Lauren it happened on the west side,
the Morton St side, which had access to west side removal with absolutely no cameras and could go west or north using roads with no cameras for miles.
Any attempt north or east, even days after would place them on camera before getting on 37 or even 67. Unless, of course, someone brazened it out(because they brazenly tweeted their breakfast) and left town the next day headed for MI. which I doubt they would go right down Walnut to 37 and on to 67 by Martinsville.. This person would
find out best way to leave via google, etc. hope LE has checked that out, natch. I am sure that they have viewed footage of every single person moving out of 5N or 10th and C & V during the month of June (even July)and made the connection if any of the POIs or their business associates are involved, etc.

 

[bx2]

she could have wandered out CRs door, turned left and would be right on the corner of 11th and Morton. turned left, gone 25-30 ft and be at first townhome of 10th and V not C. no cameras on this west side at that time.

snipped. just for accuracy sake to those unfamiliar, it was 100ft+ to the first town home and IMO Btown's picture shows a camera that would capture the Morton sidewalk