IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[AbbeyR]

Right Turn, This was new to me. If this was discussed earlier on here, I don't recall and too lazy today to go searching...so apologies if it has. Also, as always, I will probably ramble. Oh, how I wish I could be as concise as AKH or AbbeyR.

I have been re-reading MSM and have now read twice that JW's parents arrived before Lauren's. Hmmm. This rubbed me the wrong way. I, of course, already have a (negative, negative, negative) preconceived opinion of JW's parents based on their statement and FB posts. So I started thinking again about JW. Got the call from Kilroy's, retrieved phone, couldn't locate Lauren, and then got the keys from HT all the way on campus, during her class, to check her room....WHAT? That seems extreme. What did HT tell him? She certainly would have known Lauren's likely location, right? She was admittedly with her until 12:30 a.m. that morning. Wouldn't she have covered for Lauren....she stayed with so and so...etc. So, did he need to get something from her room (ala Ixchel13)? This new (to me) information is driving me crazy(er). I understand friends raising the alarm the next afternoon, after they presumably spoke with the 5N guys. I don't understand JW's actions and certainly not his parents arriving almost immediately.
Literally, the only reason I don't buy the 5N guys stories in their entirety is because the the Spierer's lawsuit. I feel they must have some secret knowledge about their guilt and that is why they are pursuing them, and if that is the case....then I say sue them till the cows come home...bury them for the rest of their lives. But as a semi recent IU grad, and a female, I find their account of events plausible, if not likely. And while I can understand those who can't or don't understand the reported events of the evening, I would just say that you are either too far removed from college life to remember or your college reality was way different that this groups....or mine.

Hi WA,

First, where did you read that JW's parents arrived before Laurens? I believe they arrived the same day, but I wasn't able to find anything more about this, so I may have missed something. This topic, and the time that Lauren was reported missing has been talked about a lot here, because it does raise questions, and I've had the same thoughts as you.

But, in the end, when I look at the whole picture, these things make more sense to me. It wasn't just that Lauren hadn't come home by the next day. By mid afternoon, JW and Lauren's friends were looking for her. They would have known that she had lost her phone at the bar, was in really bad shape when she was last seen, they would have heard about the altercation at Smallwood, Corey taking Lauren home, and that according to the guys at 5 N, she had left for home at 4 am.

I think Lauren's condition was the key factor here. People who followed this case at the very beginning know that this, above all, was what turned the focus onto the guys at 5 N. There was a widespread theory on social media from the very beginning that she had overdosed because the reports of her condition at the end of the night were so bad. Add to that that there may have been conflicting reports coming from the very first stories from the POI (For example, mid afternoon Friday, there is a witness who is described as a friend from Smallwood who reports talking to Corey and Mike at CVS, and MB saying that he watched Lauren walk out the door towards home at 4 am. HT talked to JR the same day and reported him saying the same thing. Then there is the neighbor who had a different story, though we don't know what day that was... and so on). If you read the early witness reports, it seems that both the guys at CVS, and the (other) neighbor who talked about Corey 'looking for a little blonde girl' are already questioning them. Add to that, the last person to be seen with her can't remember anything..

This isn't just about understanding college life or what a night of partying looks like. With all of those factors, it doesn't seem odd to me that her friends and boyfriend were looking for her or that she was reported missing by the next evening, or that once she was reported missing, that her parents or JW's parents would come to Bloomington. What does seem odd to me is the response of the guys at 5 N (and to a lesser degree, JW) Think about how you would respond if one of your friends never made it home after she left your apartment! It's the reactions, conflicting stories, and refusal to fully cooperate with the investigation that is hard to get past, for me.

 

[AbbeyR]

very good post. yes their stories are plausable and almost guaranteed to raise reasonable doubt. And, they could be true.
During the first year of Lauren's disappearance, on these threads I was sure it was a random abduction. Mainly because I know the area, but also because their stories
do seem like what is going on right now.
IMO, our LE did look into random abduction. There's been no indication that they've
dropped the ball.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing reading some of the posts above. LE did talk about interviewing all of the sex offenders in the area, and collected hundreds of hours of video evidence. I don't think we know how thorough the investigation was, but I don't get the impression that they ignored the possibility of a random abduction.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Way OFT. I've been reading up on another case and ohhh holy... I just want to say to all of you that have been here working for Lauren for so long THANK YOU, THANK YOU ALL for your reason and sanity.

 

[Ixchel13]

Way OFT. I've been reading up on another case and ohhh holy... I just want to say to all of you that have been here working for Lauren for so long THANK YOU, THANK YOU ALL for your reason and sanity.

I can say that after joining WS, I've never been the same. You learn what's out there.
Impossible to unlearn that.

It's important, IMO, not to blame these women for being victimized while out having a good time. But society needs to have its eyes opened, educated whether they want to be or not. That sounds harsh, but I think these people making so much money, Kilroy's for example, and yes, these giant buildings like SW, should be forced to post the dangers of what they are offering, right on their doors and throughout the buildings.

Kilroy's needs a liquor permit, a state document that makes them agree to not serve minors. They have more than a dozen citations for this. Why more than 3?
They should have been closed down years ago. Minors are not served because the
state govt, not their parents or the owners of Kilroy's, feels that they cannot handle the effects of alcohol at that age and it may cause them harm.

Kilroy's must be approved by the board of health. This is so no one gets sick or dies from their food. Ironic, dontcha think? IMO, they need to have posted prominently
the dangers of being in their very establishment alone. It really makes me angry that the owner of Kilroy's pretended to participate in a program for women's safety but didn't do this.


Posters like, "Absolutely no minors" "Minors will be arrested", The poster about being able to turn friends or strangers in for alcohol overdose w/o being prosecuted, and especially, ESPECIALLY, posters up saying not to accept drinks from strangers, or to leave their drinks unattended, and also to turn in someone they see putting something in someone's drinks.

Just putting those ideas in their clients heads will not cost them anything, as we know, the students go out regardless of the dangers, but, I'm willing to bet it will put the idea that "someone or something" is out there that can get them.
With the millions these people take in, there should be an emergency phone
right in the bar for people who get stranded or have one too many and can't make it home. After all, the establishment got them that way, and they're not supposed to.

When the bars start having to pick up the tab for the chaos they create by being greedy and over serving people, when they lose their licenses for weeks, months, years or permanently instead of paying a fine while still operating as usual, maybe this will slowly change.
Lauren may have just gone home if they had looked at her ID, noticed she didn't match the description, and sent her away. The burden was on them, because as a poster upthread said, this is what these college students do. If you set yourself up to make millions from them as Kilroy's does, you need to be able to turn them away
w/o worrying about a few dollars lost, and in the case of the bartender, letting a few dollars in tip money go away.


And SW, I doubt if anyone over the age of 25 even lives there. Those people have set themselves up to make millions from these students as well. When they rent an apt, the dangers should be transparent to the renter and to the parents that pay the bill. Full disclosure of what could go on when you have all young people living on top of each other in the thousands. How much security is really there for all their cameras
they have? Panic buttons near and in the elevators and all floors easily accessible, should be in place.


IMO, the security guards at SW either were completely unaware of the altercation, even though there is a room dedicated to banks of security monitors, or did nothing. How much does anyone want to bet they tout this security system to the parents of prospective renters, only to have this system fail miserably when it was needed the most? Afterall, the two most involved in the altercation were both non-residents who had been banned indefinitely from SW.


For the $$$ these renters pay, someone should be at a desk in front of those monitors at all times especially if they are implying that to parents when they show them around.

Soapbox folded and stashed til next time.:moo::thinking:

 

[imkeylime]

Ixchel, I totally agree with your observations (^). Whether LS was the victim of a bad night with bad acquaintances or random abduction, there were many missed opportunities to turn the tide, IMO. The president of Virginia Tech spoke at a memorial for Hannah Graham last night, and what he said (below) fits LS as well:

“What can we do about our college-aged children, who lack the life experience necessary to recognize dangerous situations?” asked President Sands, who spoke at the vigil. “By being vigilant, by not looking the other way when people walk into vulnerable situations.”

From what I can see, LS was vulnerable to both the POIs and a possible random abductor that night, and Sports definitely didn't help by letting her in ... and possibly kicking her out vs. getting her help. Maybe if CR hadn't been so insistent someone else would have interceded as well. IMO, he holds blame for that, even if he didn't do anything else. And if he didn't do anything else, I hope he gets his memory back with age and steps up.

 

[jamicat]

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...igence-suit-daughters-disappearance/16661041/

Judge has thrown out negligence suit. Spieres are appealing it including trying to get MB back in there. Uphill climb is the general consensus.


What does seem odd to me is the response of the guys at 5 N (and to a lesser degree, JW) Think about how you would respond if one of your friends never made it home after she left your apartment! It's the reactions, conflicting stories, and refusal to fully cooperate with the investigation that is hard to get past, for me. " Though this might seem odd to you, it's what any attorney consulted will absolutely tell anyone in this situation to do. Same reaction from Morgan Harrington's "friends". If any of these college kids had fully cooperated with the investigation, it likely means admitting to giving and taking drugs, which has nothing to do with any third party unknown abduction or what happened after the girls left their friends, yet WILL put the directly in line for problems if indeed the body is found, and an autopsy shows death occurred because of use of certain contraband the friends gave them. Or contributory negligence as in the suit the Spierers have indeed filed. Had those young men said anything in official statement, those could all be used against them. THat they have remained quiet means that they are unlikely to lose the civil case.

The fact of the matter is that even if Lauren did precisely as what the POIs have said, and they truly have no idea what happened after she left JR's, but if they did give her drugs and alcohol, it is possible that they contributed directly to her death. She could have been picked up by a friend, classmate, acquaintance, and then dropped dead, and they just dropped her body off at a dumpster rather than wanting to deal with the fallout. Wrong, illegal, criminal even but not murder in that case, and I'll bet you if that happened they are glad they did not step up. They'd have been crucified and sued to the whazoo, blamed, etc. Absolutely, they would be sitting tight despite the tight sad faces and pleas of the Spierers. Especially if defending themselves on such civil sutits now being levied is not something they can afford. THe POIs families can.

Also if the the POI had given Lauren some of her contraband, which I think is highly likely, probable, in fact, and had her body been found with COD definitely due to her ingesting it, they would be on the slate for murder charges. When you give people illegal drugs and the OD, yes, you can get so charged. So there is no benefit for POI to be completely open to LE. They have spoken to LE through and with their attorneys who have made sure that only those quesitons pertaining to where Lauren could have gone, were answered.

My initial feelings about the case were that the POIs were involved. The simplest, most direct thing that could have happened was that Lauren died in JR's apartment, so JR and possibly CR, and maybe others like MB and JR's overnight guests disposed of her body. But no strong hits from cadaver dogs and not an iota of proof. Not one bit. I know college kids well, exactly the kid that the POIs are, and thought they may be spoiled, entitled brats and weak, doubt that anyone uninvolved like MB would get tangled up and agree to getting rid of a body. That one person, say, just JR was so involved, maybe. But I don't see collusion in this, they just aren't wired that way, IMO. And LE and the PIs can't come up with anything, not a thing other than the idea and possibility to support their theory.

Though outside predator involvement is rare, look on this board. Enough happening that it is not at all far fetched that Lauren got so picked up leaving JR's. Even more probable that the pick up was not a predator but another partyer that Lauren may even have recognized and joined, and then died on that person who never made it into the picture to that person's enormous relief. Also attacks on woment were happening before and after this happened with Lauren. Could well have been Lauren was so picked up whether by another "friend", familiar face, stranger, or predator when she turned that corner.

That these young men, who are weak in character, spoiled and protected by parents and money, could enjoy their time they had left before graduating for IU instead of going somewhere they would not have been as known, would not have the risks of something happening is huge to me Though I don't know any of the characters in this story personally, I know young people who were going to IU and knew of the the guys, and they report no big issues for them. They were able to satisfactorially continue going to school, socializing, where not feeling like pariahs, and were even hanging out with Lauren's friends. Some annoyances with the press and curiousity seekers wanting statements, but no big deal Believe me, they and their parents would have been out of there immediately if they even sensed any risks. The money and venues were right there. It's not like it was such a big deal for them to graduate from IU or stick it out there. THey had many other options.

So, yes, though I do agree and believe that CR and JR in particular contributed greatly to Lauren's demise, and possibly even directly with giving her something that killed her, I do think she left JR's place, and that the POIs we know did not have anything to do with the disposal of her body and have no knowledge of what happened to her after they left her as they have so stated. What benefit is it to them to say they gave her X amount of cocaine, for example if she still walked out as JR says? They would just give the Spierers grounds to win their civil suit against them and just might even be up for drug charges if the amount of drugs is up there and if Lauren's body is found with what could be a lethal amount of the drug or COD(doubtful now with the time having gone by) involves the drug the POIs out and out admit giving her, they just set themselves up for serious charges.

 

[Ixchel13]

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...igence-suit-daughters-disappearance/16661041/

Judge has thrown out negligence suit. Spieres are appealing it including trying to get MB back in there. Uphill climb is the general consensus.


What does seem odd to me is the response of the guys at 5 N (and to a lesser degree, JW) Think about how you would respond if one of your friends never made it home after she left your apartment! It's the reactions, conflicting stories, and refusal to fully cooperate with the investigation that is hard to get past, for me. " Though this might seem odd to you, it's what any attorney consulted will absolutely tell anyone in this situation to do. Same reaction from Morgan Harrington's "friends". If any of these college kids had fully cooperated with the investigation, it likely means admitting to giving and taking drugs, which has nothing to do with any third party unknown abduction or what happened after the girls left their friends, yet WILL put the directly in line for problems if indeed the body is found, and an autopsy shows death occurred because of use of certain contraband the friends gave them. Or contributory negligence as in the suit the Spierers have indeed filed. Had those young men said anything in official statement, those could all be used against them. THat they have remained quiet means that they are unlikely to lose the civil case.

The fact of the matter is that even if Lauren did precisely as what the POIs have said, and they truly have no idea what happened after she left JR's, but if they did give her drugs and alcohol, it is possible that they contributed directly to her death. She could have been picked up by a friend, classmate, acquaintance, and then dropped dead, and they just dropped her body off at a dumpster rather than wanting to deal with the fallout. Wrong, illegal, criminal even but not murder in that case, and I'll bet you if that happened they are glad they did not step up. They'd have been crucified and sued to the whazoo, blamed, etc. Absolutely, they would be sitting tight despite the tight sad faces and pleas of the Spierers. Especially if defending themselves on such civil sutits now being levied is not something they can afford. THe POIs families can.

Also if the the POI had given Lauren some of her contraband, which I think is highly likely, probable, in fact, and had her body been found with COD definitely due to her ingesting it, they would be on the slate for murder charges. When you give people illegal drugs and the OD, yes, you can get so charged. So there is no benefit for POI to be completely open to LE. They have spoken to LE through and with their attorneys who have made sure that only those quesitons pertaining to where Lauren could have gone, were answered.

My initial feelings about the case were that the POIs were involved. The simplest, most direct thing that could have happened was that Lauren died in JR's apartment, so JR and possibly CR, and maybe others like MB and JR's overnight guests disposed of her body. But no strong hits from cadaver dogs and not an iota of proof. Not one bit. I know college kids well, exactly the kid that the POIs are, and thought they may be spoiled, entitled brats and weak, doubt that anyone uninvolved like MB would get tangled up and agree to getting rid of a body. That one person, say, just JR was so involved, maybe. But I don't see collusion in this, they just aren't wired that way, IMO. And LE and the PIs can't come up with anything, not a thing other than the idea and possibility to support their theory.

Though outside predator involvement is rare, look on this board. Enough happening that it is not at all far fetched that Lauren got so picked up leaving JR's. Even more probable that the pick up was not a predator but another partyer that Lauren may even have recognized and joined, and then died on that person who never made it into the picture to that person's enormous relief. Also attacks on woment were happening before and after this happened with Lauren. Could well have been Lauren was so picked up whether by another "friend", familiar face, stranger, or predator when she turned that corner.

That these young men, who are weak in character, spoiled and protected by parents and money, could enjoy their time they had left before graduating for IU instead of going somewhere they would not have been as known, would not have the risks of something happening is huge to me Though I don't know any of the characters in this story personally, I know young people who were going to IU and knew of the the guys, and they report no big issues for them. They were able to satisfactorially continue going to school, socializing, where not feeling like pariahs, and were even hanging out with Lauren's friends. Some annoyances with the press and curiousity seekers wanting statements, but no big deal Believe me, they and their parents would have been out of there immediately if they even sensed any risks. The money and venues were right there. It's not like it was such a big deal for them to graduate from IU or stick it out there. THey had many other options.

So, yes, though I do agree and believe that CR and JR in particular contributed greatly to Lauren's demise, and possibly even directly with giving her something that killed her, I do think she left JR's place, and that the POIs we know did not have anything to do with the disposal of her body and have no knowledge of what happened to her after they left her as they have so stated. What benefit is it to them to say they gave her X amount of cocaine, for example if she still walked out as JR says? They would just give the Spierers grounds to win their civil suit against them and just might even be up for drug charges if the amount of drugs is up there and if Lauren's body is found with what could be a lethal amount of the drug or COD(doubtful now with the time having gone by) involves the drug the POIs out and out admit giving her, they just set themselves up for serious charges.

you're right, they're in it up to their eyeballs, and should someone finally talk, they'll
be rightfully punished. is that what you mean?

My ardent hope is that one of these second and third tiered "kids" who were around that night inevitably gets in a jam with LE and decides to give them the truth to avoid a lengthy jail term. As you have well-pointed out, these type of parents will demand nothing less of their child, short of sending them to your aforementioned Timbuktu.

 

[jamicat]

http://m.omaha.com/news/crime/stude...e5c-5aff-11e4-8264-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm

This is what could happen. Those guys who did call the authorities when they realized they had a problem, were taken to jail and face felony charges. I don't think they did much different than those who provided Lauren, Hannah Graham, Morgan Harrington alcohol and drugs, but by coming clean, they are going to have a fight on their hands. The students who gave contrand to the three girls mentioned went on to class without much of a blip on their screens.

The problem is that a lot of people probably gave Lauren stuff that night. If they follow the precendent of those I 've known, they won't say anything. I have 3 friends who lost their kids in college from ODing at parties. Because they couldn't get a direct hit to those who provided, no one got into much trouble. These are not the type of people who will end up getting into trouble and no deal on the table for them for something like providing a college student alchohol or drugs a while back. In fact, I think there is statute of limitaions on the civil side which is in part why the Spierers sued when they did Sadly, I think they will get the case dismissed on appeals as well. What they are succeeding in doing is costing the POIs family aggravations and money as they have to act on the suits that the Spierers are filing.

I doubt anyone will talk. They just don't in these situations where it's providing drugs and drinks because so many do it.

As for the sports bar, Lauren, like many college students flashed them a fake ID and that was that. Some of the fake ids are pretty danged good, fakes from OOS with the actual person photographed on it Being a national university, there would be ID from all over and hard to distinguish the ones not in state.

I'm sorry and a bit sore that Lauren has not yet been found whereas this Hannah Graham thing did result in the find and the capture of the perp. I wonder if more hadn't been put on the idea that Lauren might have been picked up by someone instead of on the POIs, that if someone could not have been tracked to being in that area and up and about at that crazy time in the morning. There could not have been much traffic at that time. Who was out there? Who was driving up that road? Does anyone know of someone who was out all night/morning that day? From the young people and parents I've known who were connected to the scene those days, the spotlight pretty much were on the POIs, and the PIs that Lauren's parents hired did the same. There should have been several run throughs with top of the line
cadaver dogs in the area, to see if there were any cadavers there. If no good indications were found, then it's pretty much a foregone conclusions that she left the area alive.

I'm going out tonight with a couple who had a daughter in Bloomington for IU and who even lived in the very building that Lauren did, though not at the same time.

 

[imkeylime]

But wasn't there a point, early on, where the Spierers said that they just wanted to know, i.e., if Lauren had ODd or succumbed to alcohol poisoning. I realize that wouldn't guarantee no charges, per se, as the Spierers aren't LE, obviously. I'm running out the door and can't research it, but I think I remember that. But as time passed, whatever was being offered went off the table, IMO. But as I stated before, what they said and LE would do could be very different actions.

 

[jamicat]

It doesn't work that way. Criminal charges like the ones those college students are facing in Nebraska are not filed by the parents of the victim. If, say , someone had agreed to be questioned and that person gave Lauren a whole lot of cocaine that night. If her body were found, and it the COD was cocaine overdose, what do you think would be the consequence? The attorneys for those POIs, Im sure made it very clear they were not to say anything without it coming through the lawyers. The fact of the matter is that if they are telling the truth, what info could possibly be helpful that they might have?

IMO, they were all pretty blitzed out except possible MB who was working on school papers and who knows what he took after he was done and to get through the work. But CR, JR, all of them out partying, I think they were barely "in it'. It makes sense that at 4Am, JR didn't feel like walking Lauren home, calling a cab. I doubt he even watched her to the corner. From all I've read, this was not a first for Lauren being out at all hours. And from what I've heard about the student scene, it's not unusual for inebriated women to be walking around alone in that area. Spirerers themselves noted this, even after what happened to Lauren, they would see this, when the were in Bloomington. Which pained them greatly. Nothing that happened that night was unusual except Lauren did not get back home, and has since not surfaced.

 

[imkeylime]

It doesn't work that way. Criminal charges like the ones those college students are facing in Nebraska are not filed by the parents of the victim. If, say , someone had agreed to be questioned and that person gave Lauren a whole lot of cocaine that night. If her body were found, and it the COD was cocaine overdose, what do you think would be the consequence? The attorneys for those POIs, Im sure made it very clear they were not to say anything without it coming through the lawyers. The fact of the matter is that if they are telling the truth, what info could possibly be helpful that they might have?

IMO, they were all pretty blitzed out except possible MB who was working on school papers and who knows what he took after he was done and to get through the work. But CR, JR, all of them out partying, I think they were barely "in it'. It makes sense that at 4Am, JR didn't feel like walking Lauren home, calling a cab. I doubt he even watched her to the corner. From all I've read, this was not a first for Lauren being out at all hours. And from what I've heard about the student scene, it's not unusual for inebriated women to be walking around alone in that area. Spirerers themselves noted this, even after what happened to Lauren, they would see this, when the were in Bloomington. Which pained them greatly. Nothing that happened that night was unusual except Lauren did not get back home, and has since not surfaced.

I'm sure it doesn't work that way, and that the Spierers were appealing to emotion, but OTOH, if the POIs know something they haven't shared that could help the case, that's something they'll have to live with for the rest of their lives. We can't determine what they know and what they've shared or if CR really has amnesia. If her disappearance is truly a random abduction, perhaps they've said all there is to say. But if it involves someone else who saw her that night, any information that hasn't been conveyed could still be useful, including what she did at Sports and what the altercation was all about at SW.

FWIW, I do believe that CR had some impairment that night, from both alcohol/drugs and the hit at SW. Do I believe he has forever amnesia from that? Nope. But again, it's not something that can be proven. And while it may not be uncommon behavior, I still question JR letting her leave after seeing the bruise on her face and hearing her not know where she got it. I don't get it. That said, I also think JW knows more about what happened than he's let on, for whatever reason. JMO.

 

[Ixchel13]

It doesn't work that way. Criminal charges like the ones those college students are facing in Nebraska are not filed by the parents of the victim. If, say , someone had agreed to be questioned and that person gave Lauren a whole lot of cocaine that night. If her body were found, and it the COD was cocaine overdose, what do you think would be the consequence? The attorneys for those POIs, Im sure made it very clear they were not to say anything without it coming through the lawyers. The fact of the matter is that if they are telling the truth, what info could possibly be helpful that they might have?

IMO, they were all pretty blitzed out except possible MB who was working on school papers and who knows what he took after he was done and to get through the work. But CR, JR, all of them out partying, I think they were barely "in it'. It makes sense that at 4Am, JR didn't feel like walking Lauren home, calling a cab. I doubt he even watched her to the corner. From all I've read, this was not a first for Lauren being out at all hours. And from what I've heard about the student scene, it's not unusual for inebriated women to be walking around alone in that area. Spirerers themselves noted this, even after what happened to Lauren, they would see this, when the were in Bloomington. Which pained them greatly. Nothing that happened that night was unusual except Lauren did not get back home, and has since not surfaced.

whatever the rationalization, hiding a corpse is a crime, so is dealing cocaine to someone who dies. If one, two, or all of the POIs decided for whatever reason to do these things, the Spierers have every right to pursue every charge possible,
Even if every situation is the same, which by the way they aren't, it shouldn't mean the guilty people get a free pass because they're young and have their whole lives ahead. Whatever choice they made in this situation, they eventually will pay the price for that choice, be it dealing, hiding their friends body to the anguish of her family, or remaining silent about her last hours.
Our LE has been asked many times by the press and by public citizens if we should be worried in this specific case about a serial killer or an abductor in our midst. They always say that while it's a possibility, and they've checked and accounted for all deviants in the area, and hundreds of hours of camera footage, (so ya see, they've done that!) they feel they are focusing in the right area. IOW, and IMO, they don't think it's a stranger.

 

[Ros]

Right Turn, This was new to me. If this was discussed earlier on here, I don't recall and too lazy today to go searching...so apologies if it has. Also, as always, I will probably ramble. Oh, how I wish I could be as concise as AKH or AbbeyR.

I have been re-reading MSM and have now read twice that JW's parents arrived before Lauren's. Hmmm. This rubbed me the wrong way. I, of course, already have a (negative, negative, negative) preconceived opinion of JW's parents based on their statement and FB posts. So I started thinking again about JW. Got the call from Kilroy's, retrieved phone, couldn't locate Lauren, and then got the keys from HT all the way on campus, during her class, to check her room....WHAT? That seems extreme. What did HT tell him? She certainly would have known Lauren's likely location, right? She was admittedly with her until 12:30 a.m. that morning. Wouldn't she have covered for Lauren....she stayed with so and so...etc. So, did he need to get something from her room (ala Ixchel13)? This new (to me) information is driving me crazy(er). I understand friends raising the alarm the next afternoon, after they presumably spoke with the 5N guys. I don't understand JW's actions and certainly not his parents arriving almost immediately.
Literally, the only reason I don't buy the 5N guys stories in their entirety is because the the Spierer's lawsuit. I feel they must have some secret knowledge about their guilt and that is why they are pursuing them, and if that is the case....then I say sue them till the cows come home...bury them for the rest of their lives. But as a semi recent IU grad, and a female, I find their account of events plausible, if not likely. And while I can understand those who can't or don't understand the reported events of the evening, I would just say that you are either too far removed from college life to remember or your college reality was way different that this groups....or mine.

I wish I had kept the source of all the original information (MSM, social media, etc.), but I did not do so....However, I recall that JW was the only one in LS' circle who knew about the long QT syndrome. There was speculation that he went to her room and checked to see if she had taken her heart medication (or some other type of daily medication), and that is the reason he became alarmed immediately.

Found a source saying that HT did not know about the long QT until JW told her: http://archive.lohud.com/article/20...tion-compounds-concerns-about-cocaine-alcohol

And here is where the speculation was made:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Spierer-20-Bloomington-03-June-2011-11/page2

 

[imkeylime]

http://m.omaha.com/news/crime/stude...e5c-5aff-11e4-8264-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm

This is what could happen. Those guys who did call the authorities when they realized they had a problem, were taken to jail and face felony charges. I don't think they did much different than those who provided Lauren, Hannah Graham, Morgan Harrington alcohol and drugs, but by coming clean, they are going to have a fight on their hands. The students who gave contrand to the three girls mentioned went on to class without much of a blip on their screens.

The problem is that a lot of people probably gave Lauren stuff that night. If they follow the precendent of those I 've known, they won't say anything. I have 3 friends who lost their kids in college from ODing at parties. Because they couldn't get a direct hit to those who provided, no one got into much trouble. These are not the type of people who will end up getting into trouble and no deal on the table for them for something like providing a college student alchohol or drugs a while back. In fact, I think there is statute of limitaions on the civil side which is in part why the Spierers sued when they did Sadly, I think they will get the case dismissed on appeals as well. What they are succeeding in doing is costing the POIs family aggravations and money as they have to act on the suits that the Spierers are filing.

I doubt anyone will talk. They just don't in these situations where it's providing drugs and drinks because so many do it.

As for the sports bar, Lauren, like many college students flashed them a fake ID and that was that. Some of the fake ids are pretty danged good, fakes from OOS with the actual person photographed on it Being a national university, there would be ID from all over and hard to distinguish the ones not in state.

I'm sorry and a bit sore that Lauren has not yet been found whereas this Hannah Graham thing did result in the find and the capture of the perp. I wonder if more hadn't been put on the idea that Lauren might have been picked up by someone instead of on the POIs, that if someone could not have been tracked to being in that area and up and about at that crazy time in the morning. There could not have been much traffic at that time. Who was out there? Who was driving up that road? Does anyone know of someone who was out all night/morning that day? From the young people and parents I've known who were connected to the scene those days, the spotlight pretty much were on the POIs, and the PIs that Lauren's parents hired did the same. There should have been several run throughs with top of the line
cadaver dogs in the area, to see if there were any cadavers there. If no good indications were found, then it's pretty much a foregone conclusions that she left the area alive.

I'm going out tonight with a couple who had a daughter in Bloomington for IU and who even lived in the very building that Lauren did, though not at the same time.

I totally share your frustration that LS hasn't been found. I'm so grateful that HG's body was found and ID'd so quickly, and it does make you wonder if things could have been done differently in this case. But IMO, the POIs do have a role in that, as if they'd all taken the polygraphs that LE and the Spierers wanted, they wouldn't have been under as much suspicion then or now. And when you think about it, the one (DR) who did take the polygraph and allegedly admitted to doing Klonopin with LS didn't get into any trouble that we know of. While DR wasn't with her at the end of the night, he was totally involved at the start of it.

FWIW, I'm not ruling out random abduction. We talked early on here about someone approaching LS at Sports and wanting to do drugs with her. IMO, LE would have heard that rumor and followed up on it as well. IMO, all such avenues should have been or need to be exhausted. But I don't think the POIs did LS or even themselves any favors by not taking polygraphs. DR did ... and didn't get any horrible repercussions from doing so, despite the Klonopin link. JMO.

 

[jamicat]

I totally share your frustration that LS hasn't been found. I'm so grateful that HG's body was found and ID'd so quickly, and it does make you wonder if things could have been done differently in this case. But IMO, the POIs do have a role in that, as if they'd all taken the polygraphs that LE and the Spierers wanted, they wouldn't have been under as much suspicion then or now. And when you think about it, the one (DR) who did take the polygraph and allegedly admitted to doing Klonopin with LS didn't get into any trouble that we know of. While DR wasn't with her at the end of the night, he was totally involved at the start of it.

FWIW, I'm not ruling out random abduction. We talked early on here about someone approaching LS at Sports and wanting to do drugs with her. IMO, LE would have heard that rumor and followed up on it as well. IMO, all such avenues should have been or need to be exhausted. But I don't think the POIs did LS or even themselves any favors by not taking polygraphs. DR did ... and didn't get any horrible repercussions from doing so, despite the Klonopin link. JMO.

The problem with the polygraphs is that they don't clear you if you pass them and they can cause a lot of trouble if you do not. Not a chance those guys should take, most good attorneys will absolutely say. I ;ve seen no official source saying that DR admitted to doing Klonopin with LS. I didn't even know why he would take a police or any polygraph as his alibi was pretty good. He lived in the same building that Lauren did, and any comings and goings would have been caught on tape. He was in his own place for the entire evening.

No one is going after who gave Lauren drugs or drinks other than the Spierers. LE has not been at all aggressive about that. THe crux of the matter of this case is what happened to Lauren after she arrived at JR's apartment. Did she leave as JR related, or some other way? LE and PIs have both come to a dead end in that they cannot prove or disprove JR's statement, Can't find a trace of her a whiff of her after JR;s place.

 

[AbbeyR]

Right, how could LE go after them about drugs or alcohol when Lauren has not been found? What would they charge them with? This appears to have been a key problem with the civil suit tool.

 

[Ixchel13]

The problem with the polygraphs is that they don't clear you if you pass them and they can cause a lot of trouble if you do not. Not a chance those guys should take, most good attorneys will absolutely say. I ;ve seen no official source saying that DR admitted to doing Klonopin with LS. I didn't even know why he would take a police or any polygraph as his alibi was pretty good. He lived in the same building that Lauren did, and any comings and goings would have been caught on tape. He was in his own place for the entire evening.

No one is going after who gave Lauren drugs or drinks other than the Spierers. LE has not been at all aggressive about that. THe crux of the matter of this case is what happened to Lauren after she arrived at JR's apartment. Did she leave as JR related, or some other way? LE and PIs have both come to a dead end in that they cannot prove or disprove JR's statement, Can't find a trace of her a whiff of her after JR;s place.

BBM but you see there's no evidence she ever arrived at JR's at that time, when MB supposedly brought her over.

 

[AbbeyR]

Though this might seem odd to you, it's what any attorney consulted will absolutely tell anyone in this situation to do. Same reaction from Morgan Harrington's "friends". If any of these college kids had fully cooperated with the investigation, it likely means admitting to giving and taking drugs, which has nothing to do with any third party unknown abduction or what happened after the girls left their friends, yet WILL put the directly in line for problems if indeed the body is found, and an autopsy shows death occurred because of use of certain contraband the friends gave them. Or contributory negligence as in the suit the Spierers have indeed filed. Had those young men said anything in official statement, those could all be used against them. THat they have remained quiet means that they are unlikely to lose the civil case.

The fact of the matter is that even if Lauren did precisely as what the POIs have said, and they truly have no idea what happened after she left JR's, but if they did give her drugs and alcohol, it is possible that they contributed directly to her death. She could have been picked up by a friend, classmate, acquaintance, and then dropped dead, and they just dropped her body off at a dumpster rather than wanting to deal with the fallout. Wrong, illegal, criminal even but not murder in that case, and I'll bet you if that happened they are glad they did not step up. They'd have been crucified and sued to the whazoo, blamed, etc. Absolutely, they would be sitting tight despite the tight sad faces and pleas of the Spierers. Especially if defending themselves on such civil sutits now being levied is not something they can afford. THe POIs families can.

Also if the the POI had given Lauren some of her contraband, which I think is highly likely, probable, in fact, and had her body been found with COD definitely due to her ingesting it, they would be on the slate for murder charges. When you give people illegal drugs and the OD, yes, you can get so charged. So there is no benefit for POI to be completely open to LE. They have spoken to LE through and with their attorneys who have made sure that only those quesitons pertaining to where Lauren could have gone, were answered.
...
So, yes, though I do agree and believe that CR and JR in particular contributed greatly to Lauren's demise, and possibly even directly with giving her something that killed her, I do think she left JR's place, and that the POIs we know did not have anything to do with the disposal of her body and have no knowledge of what happened to her after they left her as they have so stated. What benefit is it to them to say they gave her X amount of cocaine, for example if she still walked out as JR says? They would just give the Spierers grounds to win their civil suit against them and just might even be up for drug charges if the amount of drugs is up there and if Lauren's body is found with what could be a lethal amount of the drug or COD(doubtful now with the time having gone by) involves the drug the POIs out and out admit giving her, they just set themselves up for serious charges.

Not quoting the whole post(s), but it seems like what you are saying is that it is not odd reactions from people who don't want to incriminate themselves. Right, we are on the same page. Only, I am not overly concerned with what is in the POI's self interest. Also, there's no blanket rule - criminal defense lawyers do not have a problem with their clients cooperating with an investigation to the extent that they are not incriminating themselves... and this isn't always the primary concern anyway. For all of the cases that you have mentioned (which I am not very familiar with), there are others where friends have reacted in a totally different way - Look at Mickey Shunick's friends, for example. In some cases, the primary concern of the friends is finding their missing friend.

There have been a few comments recently about LE hampering the investigation by not focusing more on the possibility of a random abduction. Aside from the fact that they have indicated they did pursue this, you know what else may have hampered that possibility? The last people with Lauren not cooperating with the investigation. Even if they did watch Lauren walk out at 4 am? They refused to take LE polygraphs, which would have helped rule them out, they withheld information and gave misleading statements to the public, leading people in the early days of the investigation (and some even still) to believe she left looking to 'party', when all evidence points to her being unable to even stand on her own, and have remained silent and/or contributed to red herrings that led people to look at all kinds of theories that made no sense whatsoever. Think of how different the search for Lauren and media treatment of this case might have looked like if they cooperated even a little, by giving say, a clear timeline of events leading up to Lauren disappearing. Then on top of all of this, the only statements they gave to the media consisted of them attacking Lauren, her parents or whining about how they are the victims.

So yeah, I'm not so concerned with what is in their self-interest. I'd really like to see justice for Lauren.

 

[jamicat]

The problem is with assuming the POIs have knowledge of what happened to Lauren when she left JR's house, or as someone brought up, whether she even got to JR's house, is that they may not have such knowledge and what they are saying may well be true, and the fact is that no info has been brought into the picture showing other wise. Not a thing. I cannot imagine a selfish guy like JR taking the rap for being left the last person with Lauren unless it were true. Not a second. But when you start going off on possibilities if what they are saying is not true, you can come up with any number of ideas, none of which can be proven. So here we are with a big fat zero.

There is no plus to the POIs admitting to giving LS any contraband. That is in part what they are being sued for doing, and if there were an iota of proof that they gave her alcohol, drugs, you can be sure the Spierers would be on them for it. No proof. Why should they give it anyone when that isn't going to help find Lauren? I'd have to tell them the same thing as their attorneys under the circumstance. Makes no other sense.

The one thing that I got from talking to parents of a former IU student is that it's not at all unusual for college students to be walking around at all times of the night drunk and under the influence. Happens all of the time. So what happened to Lauren was not a big deal up until she did not show up later and is missing. Sadly, it still happenes and not just at IU. Hannah Graham went off inebriated, alone, in the dark and never returned either, but in her case, where she went from the university area was caught on video tape. If she had disappeared without anyone having any idea where she went after leaving that one party, and no tape, no witnesses, the same could have happened as with Lauren. MH had friends in the stadium that she left and could not gain reentry, disappeared thereafter, and those very friends lawyered up just as the POIs do Pretty typical for those from families that can afford such lawyers.

So if those guys, particularly JR, just let Lauren leave at 4AM, then for there to be justice for her means finding out what happened next. I am still hoping her body is found, her clothes, and that they will tell a story. Of course, there is the remotest possibility that she is still alive. Legally, she has another 4 years to go before being declared dead. But is indeed, she is dead, I would want the evidence scrutinize for some idea as to what happened to her.

 

[doubtingthomas]

The problem is with assuming the POIs have knowledge of what happened to Lauren when she left JR's house, or as someone brought up, whether she even got to JR's house, is that they may not have such knowledge and what they are saying may well be true, and the fact is that no info has been brought into the picture showing other wise. Not a thing. I cannot imagine a selfish guy like JR taking the rap for being left the last person with Lauren unless it were true. Not a second. But when you start going off on possibilities if what they are saying is not true, you can come up with any number of ideas, none of which can be proven. So here we are with a big fat zero.

There is no plus to the POIs admitting to giving LS any contraband. That is in part what they are being sued for doing, and if there were an iota of proof that they gave her alcohol, drugs, you can be sure the Spierers would be on them for it. No proof. Why should they give it anyone when that isn't going to help find Lauren? I'd have to tell them the same thing as their attorneys under the circumstance. Makes no other sense.

The one thing that I got from talking to parents of a former IU student is that it's not at all unusual for college students to be walking around at all times of the night drunk and under the influence. Happens all of the time. So what happened to Lauren was not a big deal up until she did not show up later and is missing. Sadly, it still happenes and not just at IU. Hannah Graham went off inebriated, alone, in the dark and never returned either, but in her case, where she went from the university area was caught on video tape. If she had disappeared without anyone having any idea where she went after leaving that one party, and no tape, no witnesses, the same could have happened as with Lauren. MH had friends in the stadium that she left and could not gain reentry, disappeared thereafter, and those very friends lawyered up just as the POIs do Pretty typical for those from families that can afford such lawyers.

So if those guys, particularly JR, just let Lauren leave at 4AM, then for there to be justice for her means finding out what happened next. I am still hoping her body is found, her clothes, and that they will tell a story. Of course, there is the remotest possibility that she is still alive. Legally, she has another 4 years to go before being declared dead. But is indeed, she is dead, I would want the evidence scrutinize for some idea as to what happened to her.

You say there is no proof they gave her alcohol and if there were the Spierers would be on them for it. If I remember correctly CR was seen buying her drinks at Sports. ZC said she saw her doing shots at JR's. I would assume the suit was the Spierers going for them.

You also claim a lot of students are walking around drunk. I don't think LS was bar hopping around getting drunk and showed up at JR's with her own booze. JR called her and invited her over. No, we don't know if she made it to JR's or left JR's. I would think that was part of what the suit was about. The judge said they were fishing and had no proof. Really. Isn't that what going to court is about. Two sides having different stories and trying to find the truth. If the Spierers had total proof we wouldn't need the court system. LE would have taken care of it. JMO