IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #35

[soap mama]

You're absolutely right. Someone heading south from Bloomington looking for a dump site could easily end up on Browning Bridge rd just by trying to get "lost" so to speak. As for the grave I found, would it make sense to "disguise" a dump site to look like a pet burial? Why would someone go all the way out there to bury their pet and on the side of a pretty steep hill at that? It just seems out of place.

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Although I couldn't see someone burying a body taking the time to place a marker. The leash looks "newer" but the ground is clearly grown back over any disturbed earth.

 

[Ixchel13]

these are the infamous 10th and College apts and 10th and College Villages Townhomes, or whatnot, referred to as 10th and V.

all owned by the same company, and run parallel in the alley Lauren was last seen emerging from . So as they made their way up the alley, 10th and V would be to her left; 10th and College apts to her right.

Anyone interested can check out past threads dealing with the layout and possibilities as such to the case.

Because the PIs say CR and LS "ducked" into an alley, IMO it's one of the side courtyards off the main alley into 10th and V; so that must be the building she lived in, IMO. ZO lived at 10th and College apts across the alley.

OMG just reread this and its frazzled, I know some of you know what I meant, but.

There are two apt buildings parallel with an alley between them. This is the alley Lauren is seen emerging from.
Some on here think ZC lived in 10th and Villages, to the left of the alley; and ZO lived at 10th and College apts, to the
right of the alley.


10th and C has the parking garage; 10th and V residents cannot use it! Whereas, on the left side of the alley, the 10th and V side, there are several courtyards; which could be viewed as side "alleys" since there's parking inside the courtyards; entrance to the pool and clubhouse (ONLY accessible to 10th and V with signs depicting this)

As noted years ago, these courtyards also opened up to Morton St. via locked gates (keycard accessible) and the frontals to the 10th and V townhomes which had enclosed brick porches with concrete steps btw.

Sadly, these gates have been remodelled!! into entrances that go inside or something.

The door with the rail in front where Lauren's keys were found is all the way up the alley, then turn left and the railing and door
is there at the back of 10th and V. And the cameras don't cover this door at all/very well. It could very well be that when they rang ZCs doorbell, or for all we know, also someone else's doorbell, someone said to come down to that door.

Help me out with this Vidocq...I think they started up the alley, turned left into the courtyard by the pool and tried to get in that door, or did they contact someone inside who told them to continue up that alley to be let in that back door with the railing?

Because then the PIs have them continuing up the alley after that. Yes, they would emerge, and be seen emerging, because you have to emerge to turn left for the door; AND, you would also turn that way to either get to the sidewalk on Morton or to cross over most of the gravel lot to get to CRs.

Gravel lot, gone!alley still there, I think since I'm off today I will go up yonder and yet again take the door in. If it's even still there.

Haven't been over there since I realized everything I was doing was on camera lolol!I mean, at the time Vidocq and I, were separately kinda checking the place out. 10th and V and 10th and C have different types of cameras, btw. Mor of the adjustable cameras at 10th and C and the bubble kinds are more prevalent at 10th and V. spoken like the amateur i am.

 

[Ixchel13]

Although I couldn't see someone burying a body taking the time to place a marker. The leash looks "newer" but the ground is clearly grown back over any disturbed earth.

well, probs is a pet owner BUT!

people do weird things for weird reasons. As the paranoia builds, who knows?!

I mean, LE searches lands for dead bodies, trailer just happens to have (legit?) cadaverine.

Place that has been vetted on video in MSM (here!) turns up a pet grave old yet new. When was that leash added?
You may be right in that the grave is a clue.

Scared witnesses slowly coming forward, even the contradictions are half-hearted.

The area interests me because I was posting about it a few pages back and didn't know it, so I'm going to repost it.

 

[Ixchel13]

DBs family owns Paragon Properties which at the time of Lauren's disappearance owned property bordering the Muscatuck (sp?)
Forest Reserve near Seymour IN., let me check on the exact spelling. And I believe you can get to this land reserve sneaky-like in about 40 min. by going through the YellowWood Forest.
YeahBabs, can we get this on the map? oops I mean pretty please Map Goddess can we?
^^^^reposted this from pg. 23^^^^^

to Ryan Brewer, I had the forest wrong, a person would cut through the Hoosier Natl Forest not YellowWood, but you could skirt around Yellowood to get to Hoosier to avoid hooking up to 135
which is heavily patrolled, or as heavily patrolled as yer gonna get around here.

Another question for Ryan, have you guys been inside Muscatatuck, probably a dumb question;
and does the Muscatatuck River eventually go to the Ohio R or does it dead end?.

And Yeah Babs, you've done so much but can we add this area to our map? Please? You rock in advance! YRIA

edited to add:Two Public Access Sites are located along the river; one at Millport where State Road 135 crosses the river, and the other 3 miles west of Millport, also on the south side of the river. The Millport site is a good take out, offering a ramp and parking spaces.


got this about the Muscatatuck River. crossing 135 at Millport w. public access.

don't know exactly where I'm going with this. But maybe this is the River we're looking for.
It has a very muddy, silty bottom. Ryan, could it be this river instead of the Ohio?

 

[Vidocq]

OMG just reread this and its frazzled, I know some of you know what I meant, but.

There are two apt buildings parallel with an alley between them. This is the alley Lauren is seen emerging from.
Some on here think ZC lived in 10th and Villages, to the left of the alley; and ZO lived at 10th and College apts, to the
right of the alley.


10th and C has the parking garage; 10th and V residents cannot use it! Whereas, on the left side of the alley, the 10th and V side, there are several courtyards; which could be viewed as side "alleys" since there's parking inside the courtyards; entrance to the pool and clubhouse (ONLY accessible to 10th and V with signs depicting this)

As noted years ago, these courtyards also opened up to Morton St. via locked gates (keycard accessible) and the frontals to the 10th and V townhomes which had enclosed brick porches with concrete steps btw.

Sadly, these gates have been remodelled!! into entrances that go inside or something.

The door with the rail in front where Lauren's keys were found is all the way up the alley, then turn left and the railing and door
is there at the back of 10th and V. And the cameras don't cover this door at all/very well. It could very well be that when they rang ZCs doorbell, or for all we know, also someone else's doorbell, someone said to come down to that door.

Help me out with this Vidocq...I think they started up the alley, turned left into the courtyard by the pool and tried to get in that door, or did they contact someone inside who told them to continue up that alley to be let in that back door with the railing?

Because then the PIs have them continuing up the alley after that. Yes, they would emerge, and be seen emerging, because you have to emerge to turn left for the door; AND, you would also turn that way to either get to the sidewalk on Morton or to cross over most of the gravel lot to get to CRs.

Gravel lot, gone!alley still there, I think since I'm off today I will go up yonder and yet again take the door in. If it's even still there.

Haven't been over there since I realized everything I was doing was on camera lolol!I mean, at the time Vidocq and I, were separately kinda checking the place out. 10th and V and 10th and C have different types of cameras, btw. Mor of the adjustable cameras at 10th and C and the bubble kinds are more prevalent at 10th and V. spoken like the amateur i am.

It's funny, I hadn't been keeping up with this forum in a while, and just happened to check it today, to see myself mentioned. Ixchel13, you did a good job of summing up my understanding: I'm under the impression that at 2:48 am (I don't remember where I got the exact times) Lauren and CR entered the infamous alley (between Tenth & College Apartments and Tenth & College Village Apartments, and exited the alley at 2:51. While in the alley, Lauren falls down and hits her head, and has to be helped to her feet. As I understand it, Lauren's exiting of this alley (presumably to immediately lose her keys on the nearby railing, and cross the gravel lot with CR, on their way to his place at 5 North Townhomes on 11th St) was the last time she was on camera.

I am fairly confident that ZO lived in Tenth & College apartments, because that can be seen in public records from the time. The fact that ZC lived at T & CV is inferred from the fact that Lauren and CR are supposed to have attempted to visit her on their way down the alley, which only seems possible if she lived in T & CV.

I found the FBI guy's discussion confusing in this video:

https://www.facebook.com/ABC2020/videos/10153980606204934/

He seems to be pointing at 10th Street, and calling it the alley. I think he must be confused. I believe the alley in question runs north/south between T & C and T & CV, as we've said. And what camera is he talking about, when he points to the law office across from Tenth and College? I think he must be turned around, and be referring to the camera in the alley. But that doesn't quite make sense, because he thinks that camera would have seen her walking home (which I guess could be true of the camera in the alley). Finally, at the end of the televised special, he hints that Lauren ended up partying at certain apartments, and points to apartments on Tenth St., across from T & C and T &CV. But if he's confused about the alley, maybe he meant to point to T & C? That would seem to make sense, since one of the apartments he pointed to wasn't even there in 2011, as far as I know.

He also mentions Lauren sitting down at one point in the alley. I don't know if there's a place to sit in the alley, or if this is a reference to her sitting on the steps of T & C, on 10th St., which just creates more confusion between 10th street and the alley.

 

[Ryan_Brewer]

Ixchel13: Actually no, I haven't ridden through the reserve near Seymour. To be honest, the land gets a little flat and boring over there so we dont head that way much. The Muscatatuck actually runs a couple directions. One part flows Eastward and dries up around Deputy, IN. The other part heads down and joins the White River which then flows over toward Vincennes. Neither really go to the Ohio River. I have done some fishing at this exact access point off 135. The water is deep and always murky and muddy. It could very easily be the river in question though the White River would have been a closer option.

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[LinasK]

It is weird but I am inclined to think it may not be completely off the wall if the cross and leash were put there by someone who actually cared about the deceased. Perhaps a boyfriend, who was high/drunk/angry and lost control or failed to seek proper medical attention, accidentally..on purpose.



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If it were an ex-boyfriend, he would've known she was Jewish. My original point was getting at that I thought it was a dumb idea for a perp to think LE wouldn't investigate a grave with a cross on it since the victim was Jewish.

 

[Ixchel13]

Ixchel13: Actually no, I haven't ridden through the reserve near Seymour. To be honest, the land gets a little flat and boring over there so we dont head that way much. The Muscatatuck actually runs a couple directions. One part flows Eastward and dries up around Deputy, IN. The other part heads down and joins the White River which then flows over toward Vincennes. Neither really go to the Ohio River. I have done some fishing at this exact access point off 135. The water is deep and always murky and muddy. It could very easily be the river in question though the White River would have been a closer option.

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i know others must be wondering too, is that you on the video Jacobite posted?

 

[Ixchel13]

It's funny, I hadn't been keeping up with this forum in a while, and just happened to check it today, to see myself mentioned. Ixchel13, you did a good job of summing up my understanding: I'm under the impression that at 2:48 am (I don't remember where I got the exact times) Lauren and CR entered the infamous alley (between Tenth & College Apartments and Tenth & College Village Apartments, and exited the alley at 2:51. While in the alley, Lauren falls down and hits her head, and has to be helped to her feet. As I understand it, Lauren's exiting of this alley (presumably to immediately lose her keys on the nearby railing, and cross the gravel lot with CR, on their way to his place at 5 North Townhomes on 11th St) was the last time she was on camera.

I am fairly confident that ZO lived in Tenth & College apartments, because that can be seen in public records from the time. The fact that ZC lived at T & CV is inferred from the fact that Lauren and CR are supposed to have attempted to visit her on their way down the alley, which only seems possible if she lived in T & CV.

I found the FBI guy's discussion confusing in this video:

https://www.facebook.com/ABC2020/videos/10153980606204934/

He seems to be pointing at 10th Street, and calling it the alley. I think he must be confused. I believe the alley in question runs north/south between T & C and T & CV, as we've said. And what camera is he talking about, when he points to the law office across from Tenth and College? I think he must be turned around, and be referring to the camera in the alley. But that doesn't quite make sense, because he thinks that camera would have seen her walking home (which I guess could be true of the camera in the alley). Finally, at the end of the televised special, he hints that Lauren ended up partying at certain apartments, and points to apartments on Tenth St., across from T & C and T &CV. But if he's confused about the alley, maybe he meant to point to T & C? That would seem to make sense, since one of the apartments he pointed to wasn't even there in 2011, as far as I know.

He also mentions Lauren sitting down at one point in the alley. I don't know if there's a place to sit in the alley, or if this is a reference to her sitting on the steps of T & C, on 10th St., which just creates more confusion between 10th street and the alley.

I'm getting a notion that this Garrett is purposely screwing the story up, for obvious reasons.

 

[Ryan_Brewer]

i know others must be wondering too, is that you on the video Jacobite posted?

I'm not in that video but the guy wearing the GoPro is a good buddy of mine. I am in a lot of his other videos as we ride together frequently. I know almost all of those guys pretty well. We have fun that's for sure!

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[Ros]

Anyone with a H-T subscription care to summarize the editorial on the 20/20 show?

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm not in that video but the guy wearing the GoPro is a good buddy of mine. I am in a lot of his other videos as we ride together frequently. I know almost all of those guys pretty well. We have fun that's for sure!

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You<buddies>Jacobite or You<buddies<Jacobite?

Jacobite, just being nosey. I remember way back that you knew people downtown and just wondering if you made that video happen...and what yer thinkin I mean it is posted.

 

[Ryan_Brewer]

You<buddies>Jacobite or You<buddies<Jacobite?

Jacobite, just being nosey. I remember way back that you knew people downtown and just wondering if you made that video happen...and what yer thinkin I mean it is posted.

I do not know Jacobite if that's what your asking. I'd say my riding friends do not know him either. I came to this forum on my own after riding through that area and getting weird vibes. If you go to Youtube and search Browning Bridge, my buddies videos pop right up so they are easy to find. I think you're looking too deep into this

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[Ixchel13]

I do not know Jacobite if that's what your asking. I'd say my riding friends do not know him either. I came to this forum on my own after riding through that area and getting weird vibes. If you go to Youtube and search Browning Bridge, my buddies videos pop right up so they are easy to find. I think you're looking too deep into this

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BBM understatement, lol. don't take it personally, glad you found this site. as far as the video, being an ex-marine, I noticed the very organized way the riders were using hand signals, etc.
They seem trained. I guess when you guys get together you practice this kind of thing?

 

[mpnola]

I just watched the video. First, let me say--- I love boys and how naturally they work together and help each other. They look like they have fun adventures, for sure.

As far as this case, seeing that video makes me realize just how impossible it would be to find someone, unless the person decided to tell where she was. If someone dumped her deep back in the woods somewhere, it was be nearly impossible to find, without some info. I want her parents to find her, so badly. I hope with the new 20/20, it renews interest and someone comes forward with something.

After watching the 20/20 (I did not follow this case closely, so I know it is kind of like watching the movie versus reading the novel), it didn't seem like it was any of the ones they have on radar. I know they were bothered that one of the boys got an attorney after a few days, but that is the very first thing any attorney or police friend will tell you to do! So, it doesn't mean guilt as much as it means someone advised him to do that.

 

[Ryan_Brewer]

BBM understatement, lol. don't take it personally, glad you found this site. as far as the video, being an ex-marine, I noticed the very organized way the riders were using hand signals, etc.
They seem trained. I guess when you guys get together you practice this kind of thing?

No worries! We do use various hand signals but its not something we practice. You just kind of pick it up as you go along. I'm flattered that this seems organized as that is typically far from the truth. Other than staying in some type of an orderly line, it's a free for all usually

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[Ixchel13]

what if someone did have a boat? DM could have been trying to get Hannah on a boat or maybe even did have her on a boat, at Lake Lemon.
Cops oughta check who owns what boat and where it was, on any given date, especially Lauren's and Hannah's.. Both DM and JMW fished. I wonder how one would check boat sales...through public tax records? For instance, after Lauren disappeared, did anyone we're discussing buy a boat? Or who upgraded their boat after Lauren disappeared, that kind of thing.

Also, I wonder if any of the POIs ever
owned, or their parents ever owned boats around here?

 

[Ros]

There were questions about whether any PsOI had boats in June 2011 when there was a search at Lake Monroe. I don't think the questions were answered publicly.

 

[Yeahbabs]

Sorry I haven't been around and missed your original request, Ixchel. I'm happy to add whatever you want to the map, but I'm not really getting exactly where you mean. The Muscatuck forest itself, or...? I'm nowhere near as familiar with these very remote areas as you all are, the more specific, the better!

Something else I wanted to throw out there for you guys. Hannah Wilson's trial was postponed again, from June 1 to August 1. In the meantime, DM's public defender has gotten all sorts of requests approved (for things like hiring private detectives, etc). Apparently HW's family thinks the public defender is just worthless and totally incompetent. BUT...idk, I'm just surprised that preparing his defense would be all that complicated - the entire case seemed so cut and dry. I also would have expected them to sign a plea deal ages ago.

So do you think he has some cards up his sleeve (or for some reason thinks he does)? Do you think there is going to be some big revelation during his trial? I keep feeling like the reason that LE has kept so quiet about the JMW raid might have some connection to the reason DM's trial keeps being delayed.

 

[Yeahbabs]

Also, in regards to that creepy cross/leash thing...I think it's very plausible that someone could have intentionally put it there to point someone in the direction of LS. Probably not someone who feels directly responsible, but someone who knows what happened, doesn't accept personal responsibility (even if they should), and whose conscience has been eating away at them.

Isn't it somewhat typical for guilty people to return to areas associated with their crime?

Also, the mention of Judiasm made me realize that in all the countless times I've seen roadside memorials, etc. I have never seen any religious symbols other than crosses. Not saying that means anything, I've just never had that occur to me.