IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #9

[jennyb629]

Thanks for the discussion on this everyone. It is hard to imagine any of the POIs being cool/collected/careful enough to pull it off without a hitch. Who's car did they use? No evidence inside? No sightings of it coming/going? I know there's a lot of rural land surrounding Bloomington - and on that front I think about how far away a cadaver dog can smell an un-buried body (it's FAR, especially considering the warm weather). Even a human can smell something like that from at least 150 yards if the wind is right (based on my own experience with dead deer). I'm assuming that the city limits and easily accessible surrounding rural areas have all been thoroughly searched (including all dumpsters). That Texas recovery group even came in with their gadgets (I think I read about an aerial drone), horses, and valuable experience.

This all leads me to believe they took her further away - but then when did the POI/POIs get back? What's the alibi for heading to the sticks early that morning or the next day? :banghead:

I don't like thinking about not finding LS (alive or not).

I agree, I think they must have taken her very far away. I also agree that I don't think any of the PsOI would have been careful/collected/sober enough to do such a good job of concealing evidence/a body on their own. That's why-again, re my post above- I believe she OD'ed and then a higher-up in the drug trade was notified and that higher-up unknown person is the one(s) who is responsible for disposing of her body. They would have used a different car (one not belonging to any of the PsOI). As far as sightings of that car, I have no idea. I think someone said there are some areas around JR's building w/o cameras. But again, I think someone higher-up in the drug trade, knowledgeable about covering up bad situations could do a much more thorough job of concealing evidence/a body than could any of the PsOI which is why I believe someone else (an unknown) was called in to help with this disposal and that the PsOI actually do not know where LS was taken, therefore making it easier for them to make statements to LE saying that they don't know what happened to her-since they may know bits and pieces but don't know the whole story if an unknown person (unknown to us, unknown to LS, etc) was involved after the fact (presuming LS died).

I don't really know how they would physically take her body away-trash bags, duffel bag, etc. but since she is so tiny it doesn't really seem that unlikely that they could get out of the building with her unnoticed, especially at that hour.

I agree with you also that I really don't like thinking about LS not being found. It is such a sad case already...

 

[Observer33]

I agree, I think they must have taken her very far away. I also agree that I don't think any of the PsOI would have been careful/collected/sober enough to do such a good job of concealing evidence/a body on their own. That's why-again, re my post above- I believe she OD'ed and then a higher-up in the drug trade was notified and that higher-up unknown person is the one(s) who is responsible for disposing of her body. They would have used a different car (one not belonging to any of the PsOI). As far as sightings of that car, I have no idea. I think someone said there are some areas around JR's building w/o cameras. But again, I think someone higher-up in the drug trade, knowledgeable about covering up bad situations could do a much more thorough job of concealing evidence/a body than could any of the PsOI which is why I believe someone else (an unknown) was called in to help with this disposal and that the PsOI actually do not know where LS was taken, therefore making it easier for them to make statements to LE saying that they don't know what happened to her-since they may know bits and pieces but don't know the whole story if an unknown person (unknown to us, unknown to LS, etc) was involved after the fact (presuming LS died).

I don't really know how they would physically take her body away-trash bags, duffel bag, etc. but since she is so tiny it doesn't really seem that unlikely that they could get out of the building with her unnoticed, especially at that hour.

I agree with you also that I really don't like thinking about LS not being found. It is such a sad case already...

Phone records would show a call.

 

[elmomom]

<snip>
Connections to powerful people in the drug trade would also explain the discreet disposal of LS's body and the lack of evidence--I think there are some people involved in drugs who would be very skilled at getting rid of a body/evidence in a case where their college dealer's friend dies of an OD, especially if selling drugs to IU students is a huge part of their business, they obviously want to do a really thorough job of covering up any accident involving a student taking their drugs [/B] This is why I think JR called someone higher up in the drug trade to help him after LS ODed or had some other drug-related accident.

I agree with most of what you have said, except this portion. I think the chance that a college low level dealer (If they were that) has little or no chance of having connections to "powerful people". I think there are one or two "low level" people in between. And also, I think it much more likely the response would be "You're on your own kid" as a kid in college OD'ing happens all the time, and almost never ends up in any sort of action against drug rings. College dealers are almost always pretty small operators, buying from other small operators, who may have larger connections.. but again, the big guys are going to want to stay as far away from this scenario as they can.
I also wonder how likely it is that there is another phone call - which would be required to contact a drug supplier (other than DR). Since LE, JR and/or his lawyer pretty much announced that there was a phone call made at 4:15, and it was pretty much assumed to be verified that it was to DR, then it makes it sound as if any and all phone calls have been looked into. Maybe there are more calls but I'm leaning to thinking his phone is clear, and it was just the 4:15 call that needed to be explained.

 

[Glaucon]

But again, I think someone higher-up in the drug trade, knowledgeable about covering up bad situations could do a much more thorough job of concealing evidence/a body than could any of the PsOI which is why I believe someone else (an unknown) was called in to help with this disposal and that the PsOI actually do not know where LS was taken, therefore making it easier for them to make statements to LE saying that they don't know what happened to her-since they may know bits and pieces but don't know the whole story if an unknown person (unknown to us, unknown to LS, etc) was involved after the fact (presuming LS died).

We're on the same page here. I too posted about a higher level drug connection a while back. You're right, they would be able to handle the situation better and the motivation is there to protect their distribution chain. I really hope one of them screwed up enough to get caught.

 

[jennyb629]

Phone records would show a call.

That's true but do we even know that they have phone records for JR? I know that we are aware of his call to DR's phone but wasn't that reported from DR's end and not necessarily supported by phone records obtained from JR's phone? I really don't know the answers to this, obviously but I'm not sure that LE even has access to JR's phone records...

 

[jennyb629]

I agree with most of what you have said, except this portion. I think the chance that a college low level dealer (If they were that) has little or no chance of having connections to "powerful people". I think there are one or two "low level" people in between. And also, I think it much more likely the response would be "You're on your own kid" as a kid in college OD'ing happens all the time, and almost never ends up in any sort of action against drug rings. College dealers are almost always pretty small operators, buying from other small operators, who may have larger connections.. but again, the big guys are going to want to stay as far away from this scenario as they can.
I also wonder how likely it is that there is another phone call - which would be required to contact a drug supplier (other than DR). Since LE, JR and/or his lawyer pretty much announced that there was a phone call made at 4:15, and it was pretty much assumed to be verified that it was to DR, then it makes it sound as if any and all phone calls have been looked into. Maybe there are more calls but I'm leaning to thinking his phone is clear, and it was just the 4:15 call that needed to be explained.

Thanks for your response...I guess I really don't know how the hierarchy in the drug trade works at all...I really wonder but you do make a lot of good points and I think on second thought I agree with you that college dealers would be small operators and they might not be able to easily get help from a higher-up. I would like to know what phone records LE actually has access to...

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

I just noticed that Lauren is wearing a bracelet or watch on her right wrist. Was this one of the objects found at Kilroy's or the alley?

It also looks like she might be fiddling with a necklace. Maybe not...she could just be scratching an itch or playing with her shirt or hair...but I saw a picture of myself taken this last weekend where my hands are in the same position, and I remember that while it was being taken I was touching a pendant to see if it was facing the right way.

 

[blazelet]

So the possible narratives I'm hearing over and over are :

a) Stranger abduction - either deceased or being held
b) Friend\Aquaintance Abduction stemming from an argument - most likely deceased
c) Drug related overdose and friend\aquaintance disposal of body - deceased
d) Runaway - alive
e) Accidental death, only LS involved - deceased

Very broad set of possibilities for being such an old case .... really we need more evidence to come to any difinitive conclusion.

 

[kissdegirl]

Hey locals, do the apts at 5 North have more windows than the ones in the pics, or are the one's on 11th the only one's to their apts? TIA

 

[elmomom]

Everyone present in the apartment knew what happened which means possibly four adults.

Question: Why hasn't LE named them and made them squirm like they are doing to JR, CR, MB and JW?

Someone just walked by your house 12 hours ago, did you notice them or even know they were there? They had 12 hours before anyone knew anything.

But when LE comes to my door the next day and asks did you hear anything or see anything, there is a good chance that one person remembering seeing or hearing something even innocuous. Or if you see the nightly news elaborating the timeline over and over and asking for tips, you think back, you may remember something you didn't even realize that you had noticed at the time.

 

[Glaucon]

I agree with most of what you have said, except this portion. I think the chance that a college low level dealer (If they were that) has little or no chance of having connections to "powerful people". I think there are one or two "low level" people in between. And also, I think it much more likely the response would be "You're on your own kid" as a kid in college OD'ing happens all the time, and almost never ends up in any sort of action against drug rings. College dealers are almost always pretty small operators, buying from other small operators, who may have larger connections.. but again, the big guys are going to want to stay as far away from this scenario as they can.
I also wonder how likely it is that there is another phone call - which would be required to contact a drug supplier (other than DR). Since LE, JR and/or his lawyer pretty much announced that there was a phone call made at 4:15, and it was pretty much assumed to be verified that it was to DR, then it makes it sound as if any and all phone calls have been looked into. Maybe there are more calls but I'm leaning to thinking his phone is clear, and it was just the 4:15 call that needed to be explained.

Why must you make such solid counterpoints to my theories?

 

[SmoothOperator]

Does anyone have clarification on when it was exactly that JR left town? I have heard it was as early as the day of(as in literally hours later after having last seen Lauren round the corner at 4:30am).. And then today I read here in this thread someone post that he left on 6/8..

IMO this is super important and extremely relevant and necessary to verify exactly when it was that jR left Bloomington..

IMO everything could change in the way we are looking at things based on when exactly JR left..

If it's true that he did indeed leave at some point that Friday, the 3rd.. Well.. IMO it's even more likely that he is the one as well as even more of a possibility that he would absolutely be 100% capable of doing it all on his own without involving ANYONE!!!

If he left on the 3rd it is absolutely possible that he so very easily could have concealed her tiny body in a suitcase or any type of duffel bag.. If he is packing to head home then he would have absolutely nothing to fear nor worry about in his toting down from his apt to his vehicle a duffel or suitcase containing her body and simply place in his car or trunk.. There would be no suspicion whatsoever as JR was simply packing and loading his car for a trip home..

Certainly would make for disposing of the body a heckuva alot easier because u are now not rushed to beat the quickly rising sun of daylight, nor do you have to worry about cameras, or people being around and possibly seeing you enter or exit a wooded area or body of water which was chosen to dispose of her body at..

But rather now you have got a good bit of time to really get your wits about you(and become sobered up if was under the influence at the time of the death).. Now with a clear and better thinking head you can better plan out in what way to best get rid of her body..

Just as someone mentioned before could be absolutely anywhere between Bloomington and Michingan and possibly any other place that may or may not be en route to Michigan.. Possibly a place he remembers or thinks of as the perfect place to dispose of remains where they literally will never be discovered(and believe it or not these places do exist.. There are plenty of cases where bodies truly are NEVER RECOVERED).. it could absolutely be anywhere!!!

With JR having left immediately and then As we know having retained the top of the best in criminal defense Attys does a couple of things for Jay..
A) it keeps him from even having to directly communicate with any investigators
B) it keeps his person(I.e. His body) from being searched for any possible defense wounds, scratches, etc.. Along with any other type small injury that could have occurred in his disposing of the body(as was discussed ^above^ like if henhad gone out into deep woods and gotten bug bites, scratches, etc while disposing).. This keeps all of this concealed from LE
C)it keeps his vehicle from being thoroughly searched.. Including for any of Laurens DNA and possibly even cadaver dogs from hitting on the car from his having transported Laurens body in his car.. This too is kept from LE at this present time
D) his giving a DNA sample at this present time
E) his having to be interrogated, questioned multiple times, pressed on any inconsistent details or contradictions that may be present in his "story"
F) it has kept him from having to participate in any way with the pressure of taking a LDT.
G) this also keeps all of JR's cell records, receipts, etc(meaning tracking his movements nor if there is any proof of his buying tarps, shovels, etc)
Those listed ^above^ are some very major issues that JR has escaped from in his having left town and as of yet has continued to stay out of town and therefor out of LE's reach in order to even start finding this evidence "if" indeed JR is our guy responsible for Laurens disappearance.. Nor are they able to go thru these same steps to be able to rule him out as possible perp in the case ..

This could be the answer to EVERYTHING and the very reason that the case is at a standstill. Can someone please clarify for me when exactly was it that JR left Bloomington?

 

[epiphany]

Who's in the alley with LS @ 2:51 who LE won't identify? Doesn't sound like it's CR.

 

[evelyn24]

So the possible narratives I'm hearing over and over are :

a) Stranger abduction - either deceased or being held
b) Friend\Aquaintance Abduction stemming from an argument - most likely deceased
c) Drug related overdose and friend\aquaintance disposal of body - deceased
d) Runaway - alive
e) Accidental death, only LS involved - deceased

Very broad set of possibilities for being such an old case .... really we need more evidence to come to any difinitive conclusion.

Well with the exception of 'C' most missing person cases are usually one of the above, and I also wouldn't call a three week old missing persons case "such an old case" considering many cases go unsolved for years or take several months to solve.

 

[kissdegirl]

This may have been posted before, but I just came across it. It's the map LE released with the timeline, and it's actually large enough to see. I hadn't seen one that I could read since the live presser that day. Hopefully it will help someone.
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/pages/files/lauren_spierer/0616-Spierer-timeline-map.pdf

There's also a photo gallery here that is a pictorial timeline...wonder if they got the idea from Btown? lol
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/pages/spierer_photos/

 

[elmomom]

Why must you make such solid counterpoints to my theories?

:Banane35:


sorry! It's just I go round and round and round myself and have arguments for all my arguments :crazy:

 

[illinialum]

Phone records would show a call.

I know nothing about drug dealers and the like. But let's suppose for a moment that JR was a campus drug dealer who had a "superior" drug supplier?

Is there a possibility that this other drug supplier provided him a phone to use for drug-related transactions? If JR ever supplied drugs to those outside of his circle of friends, he might not want his buyers to know his "real" phone number and identity.

Using the previously mentioned theory that JR called his supplier to dispose of the body, he could have used his "drug" phone. Even if police did confiscate his regular phone and got his phone records, this phone call wouldn't show up.

Just a possibility...

 

[Long-time Local]

Hey locals, do the apts at 5 North have more windows than the ones in the pics, or are the one's on 11th the only one's to their apts? TIA

Yes, there are windows all over the back of the building (facing the alley and the vacant lot) and there are two columns of windows on the west side of the building (the east and west sides are short, north and south are long sides). One of the units seems to have a balcony on the east side of the building, but I don't know about the windows there.

 

[abstr]

I have been lurking on this thread for awhile. I think many valid points and speculations have been made and I truly wish we had more information to go off of so that our thoughts were more than just speculation...

As many others have stated, I don't think this night-as dramatic and ultimately tragic as it was--is that out of the ordinary for hard-partying college students and I don't think that the majority of the information we have about that night is shocking being that I (despite obviously not knowing anyone in this case personally or having attended or ever even been to IU/Bloomington) have just recently finished college myself, not very much older than Lauren or the PsOI and, though I mostly stuck to just drinking, have also been exposed to/semi-involved in the drug culture prevalent at many college campuses/among many in this age group.

Snipped for length. You are a very intelligent woman. I do not agree with you theory but I do totally agree with you perspective. I also love you writing style. Hope that degree was lit or journalism

 

[kissdegirl]

Yes, there are windows all over the back of the building (facing the alley and the vacant lot) and there are two columns of windows on the west side of the building (the east and west sides are short, north and south are long sides). One of the units seems to have a balcony on the east side of the building, but I don't know about the windows there.

So it's possible, someone could have gone through a back window to avoid being seen, and had a car pulled up behind it...then they could have removed a 90lb person/duffel bag/box through that back window and not be seen? How dark is that area around those back windows facing the vacant lot? Pitch black or darn close? Thanks again.