IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[CALIORBUST]

Does anyone know how to access the city planning and property line maps? I was just looking on google maps, google earth and bing maps and it looks like there is private property and a fence bordering the creek which would prevent anyone from walking from the Sheffield apartments to the playground area where she was found. I'd like to look more closely at the maps to see if there is any way that she could have crossed the creek anywhere except at the bridge where she and her children were found. If she could not have accessed that area by foot, then I really doubt that she would have walked along the road to the bridge to drown her children. She could have done that on the other side of the creek that was more easily accessible by foot from the apartments.

Just as a reference, I live here. There is no private property boarding anything or preventing anyone from walking there. I drove by Binford a couple times now in the last week just looking at things. You walk out of Sheffield, turn left and literally a block away is the street corner which is Country Club Drive and Greybrook, you walk down the sidewalk that is there on the right side of the road and right into Binford Park. There is not a gate that closes this park at night either. She can easily walk there. I could walk there with my kids who are of similar age. She could easily walk there. But that's not the problem. The problem in my eyes is we had snow that previous night, that day it was snowing, when they made the discovery you see snow in the videos and pictures..its like 30 degrees or less. What mom is taking her kid out to play in that weather, walking down the road, etc..?! None, that I know of. Plus, he would/should have been in school..unless home schooled here in Indiana which they have not said..only back in Washington.It's just me and my opinion, but I do not think she murdered those kids or herself. I just don't. I also think LE will not release all the "bizarre" things they have casually mentioned until toxicology is back. What if they indicated in any way the husband was a suspect...couldn't it be possible he kill himself, flee, etc.. I would think as many and all facts in this case that LE can have full confirmation of would be smart. Anyways, this is my neighborhood, my street, my park I have played in with my kids, etc.. if you have other questions about the area per say...hopefully, I can shed some light on it.

 

[CALIORBUST]

Just so you know also, down Greybrook more past the park is what is considered and called the projects. I don't even feel safe driving up and past Binford Park. But, that's just me. Her building is at the corner of the road more or less...compared to the entire of complex. I know this because news vans have come and gone for days. I could throw a rock from my building and hit it. I can't envision her walking the further distance of the "red" line and in fact...I know where you are showing that to be...don't think you can get directly "down" to the creek. Again, projects a few blocks up and around the area, 30 something degrees and SNOW! It doesnt show the playground set on this image...but it's right next to the loop you see.

So here's my question about how she could have done this herself. In looking at the city zoning/planning maps, it looks like she could walk to the creek, but that she could not cross the creek to walk to the bridge except near the playground. It also looks like there is a fence along the properties along the North side of the creek and that it is not really possible to walk along that side of the creek to the bridge/playground area.

How did she get to that area if she walked from the Sheffield Apartments?

(the map is 800 pixels wide, with meets the website sizes, but please let me know if this is blowing margins ... it happens when people have zoomed their screens to more than 110%)

http://floydin.egis.39dn.com/#

 

[CALIORBUST]

I am pretty damn sure this is someones personal property. I will look on my way home today. But walking thru someones property with kids in tow when the only place it leads to the creek...ugh no. And no, I do not believe there are ANY other small bridges. If the weather that day was approx 30 degrees...what would the water temp be!?

Thanks for the map otto. I had wondered also if there was a way for them to cross the creek. It's really hard to tell if there could be a little bridge anywhere along there. On google map view, all the trees are in full bloom. We need someone on the ground to answer that for us.

Look here on this map. See the path going from the street to the creek. It almost looks like it was mowed. I wonder if you can cross the creek there.

Binford Park, New Albany, IN - Google Maps

 

[CALIORBUST]

I wondered about that too and looked for maps where the trees were bare. These are historical maps from 2002 and 2010. I can't see any bridge in that area and wondered if that trail was for walking on the North side of the creek heading West. Hopefully someone local can walk the area and let us know if it's even possible to walk from the Sheffield Apartments, with a 10 year old and a baby in a sling, to the bridge near the playground at Binford Park.

Yes, very much so. You just walk down Greybrook Lane about 2-3 blocks and you are at the entrance of the park with access to the walking bridge where they were found near, the playground, etc..

 

[CALIORBUST]

I know the address but not putting it on here. Any Sleuth could figure it out lol But yes, it would make all sense for her or anyone else from the apartments to walk down the sidewalk to the park.

I do agree that a woman would have to be rather craz

y to drown her two children and then commit suicide in 12-18 inches of water (if that is even possible), but I doubt that the cause of this could be childbirth.

Can anyone see a path for walking from the apartments to the playground area in the park where the bodies were found. If she did this, the fact that her car was at home suggests that she walked from the apartment, but why walk along the road ... unless that is closer. Do we know the exact address in the Sheffield apartment complex.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Thanks Caliorbust! That helps to eliminate the question of how they crossed the creek. Trying to look at something with google maps can be deceiving in size and distance.

I'm pretty sure the boy was home schooled. One thing I can say about the father, he is pretty adamant about this not being a murder/suicide. In fact in the videos he appears to be visibly angry that this has even been suggested. "If" he were responsible, I wonder why he wouldn't just go with the flow.

Well, I guess maybe life or ADD insurance, wouldn't pay for a suicide.

 

[althea33161]

the local news, papers, etc. are very biased in this case. i wrote a few comments on this murder on WDRB news blog. if u don't agree with filicide/suicide due to PPD, u get ur comments deleted....first off, by all accounts, she was happier than she had ever been. PPD IS NOT a silent killer! secondly, most women who kill their children do not kill themseves. third, women almost always choose the bathtub or ocean to drown themselves, not a creek, ditch, or lake. most filicide/suicides are men! a penticostal woman would not choose to be found naked in a public place! not only is the creek shallow, but it was freezing cold that day...suppose someone drugged themselves & then layed down in 12" of almost frozen water? the minute she hit the water, she would have gasped with an intake of breath & her heart would become tachycardic, temporarily, prolonging her life. where the bodies were dumped is right where the parking lot ends; a straight shot from the enterace to the park, were someone in a car...for her to have walked to the park, in a snowstorm, carrying an infant, she would have had to travel through a wooded area, jumped a fence & crossed the creek...all without any jackets! i would venture that Brandon & Jaime both could have quoted scriptures for hours, yet she took a bible with her?! a random killer would have no reason to kill a 6mo. old infant who could not be a witness...a random killer would not transport the bodies that far, in that weather, to stage something like this...a random killer could just as easily have humiliated her w/ nakedness & mocked her religion w/ the bible inside her home...why take the risk? the most disturbing aspect of all of this to me is the overwhelming response of the public to buy into the filicide/suicide...statistically speaking, the concept is highly improbable. mike cutter? should have stayed off TV. the first i saw of him, he said, of the discovery, "it broke my heart"; "they aren't ever coming back" (declaration or lamentation?);"there were no signs that anything was wrong"....his body language & eye movement indicate he is lying; his comments are void of any emotion (sociopathic?);he immediately bought into murde/suicide (his story has now changed)...but most telling, not once did he mention anything about "catching the killer". my husband was murdered...i was a hospice nurse....his reaction, statements, and lack of a plea for any info regarding the crime, along w/ his "flat affect", are such glaring indicaters of guilt....again...the most disturbing fact: everybody is buying the filicide/suicide fabrication....human nature dictates different, as does the statistical studies regarding people who commit this type of crime. the local bias & apathy to this crime remains a mystery. maybe this Hendericks that is the prosecutor should google the tapes of Scott Peterson for comparrison? i believe mike has done this before & will again.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Welcome Althea!!! That was a mouthful!! I'm glad your here. Thanks so much for your opinions. You made some very good points. My senses are telling me that the prosecutor is no dummy and he will do a thorough investigation.

 

[althea33161]

cleo612, having been a women's health nurse, and experienced PPD first-hand many times, i can tell u...it IS NOT a silent affliction...one of the most universal signs being uncontrollable outburst of crying...also, i was raised penticostal...they all believe in supernatural healing & the rapture....so why did she not request prayer? goes to church DAILY, but doesn't request prayer? she would not have committed filicide/suicide out of some religious fear of Armageddan...these speculation do not support her fierce religious beliefs...she believed that her God would deliver her from evil. again, please, PPD is not a SILENT affliction...there is just no way this theory holds water if she was asymptomatic

 

[althea33161]

Welcome Althea!!! That was a mouthful!! I'm glad your here. Thanks so much for your opinions. You made some very good points. My senses are telling me that the prosecutor is no dummy and he will do a thorough investigation.

it is a mouthful because i have been censored from my views locally! thank u so much! i was so relieve to find this site....i am not alone in my concerns relating to this tragedy. i like it that this sight has no room for anonymous folks to vote good or bad on my comments. thought-proviking, intelligent discourse instead of censorship...thank u! people don't usually agree, but that is no reason to silence those who hold a different view.

 

[marycarney]

the local news, papers, etc. are very biased in this case. i wrote a few comments on this murder on WDRB news blog. if u don't agree with filicide/suicide due to PPD, u get ur comments deleted....first off, by all accounts, she was happier than she had ever been. PPD IS NOT a silent killer! secondly, most women who kill their children do not kill themseves. third, women almost always choose the bathtub or ocean to drown themselves, not a creek, ditch, or lake. most filicide/suicides are men! a penticostal woman would not choose to be found naked in a public place! not only is the creek shallow, but it was freezing cold that day...suppose someone drugged themselves & then layed down in 12" of almost frozen water? the minute she hit the water, she would have gasped with an intake of breath & her heart would become tachycardic, temporarily, prolonging her life. where the bodies were dumped is right where the parking lot ends; a straight shot from the enterace to the park, were someone in a car...for her to have walked to the park, in a snowstorm, carrying an infant, she would have had to travel through a wooded area, jumped a fence & crossed the creek...all without any jackets! i would venture that Brandon & Jaime both could have quoted scriptures for hours, yet she took a bible with her?! a random killer would have no reason to kill a 6mo. old infant who could not be a witness...a random killer would not transport the bodies that far, in that weather, to stage something like this...a random killer could just as easily have humiliated her w/ nakedness & mocked her religion w/ the bible inside her home...why take the risk? the most disturbing aspect of all of this to me is the overwhelming response of the public to buy into the filicide/suicide...statistically speaking, the concept is highly improbable. mike cutter? should have stayed off TV. the first i saw of him, he said, of the discovery, "it broke my heart"; "they aren't ever coming back" (declaration or lamentation?);"there were no signs that anything was wrong"....his body language & eye movement indicate he is lying; his comments are void of any emotion (sociopathic?);he immediately bought into murde/suicide (his story has now changed)...but most telling, not once did he mention anything about "catching the killer". my husband was murdered...i was a hospice nurse....his reaction, statements, and lack of a plea for any info regarding the crime, along w/ his "flat affect", are such glaring indicaters of guilt....again...the most disturbing fact: everybody is buying the filicide/suicide fabrication....human nature dictates different, as does the statistical studies regarding people who commit this type of crime. the local bias & apathy to this crime remains a mystery. maybe this Hendericks that is the prosecutor should google the tapes of Scott Peterson for comparrison? i believe mike has done this before & will again.

BBM: Do you know something about the husband's background which leads you to think this?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

cleo612, having been a women's health nurse, and experienced PPD first-hand many times, i can tell u...it IS NOT a silent affliction...one of the most universal signs being uncontrollable outburst of crying...also, i was raised penticostal...they all believe in supernatural healing & the rapture....so why did she not request prayer? goes to church DAILY, but doesn't request prayer? she would not have committed filicide/suicide out of some religious fear of Armageddan...these speculation do not support her fierce religious beliefs...she believed that her God would deliver her from evil. again, please, PPD is not a SILENT affliction...there is just no way this theory holds water if she was asymptomatic

I was so hoping that someone with pentecostal knowledge would comment. I hope that none of my speculation has offended you. I guess I had some concerns that maybe she was being prayed for at the church but this was being kept quiet. My other concern also was if she was in a psychotic state could her religious beliefs have been distorted. If she were hearing voices, etc.

I have a hard time believing that she had been in a state of psychosis for a long period of time. I'm not really one that is looking closely as PPP being a factor here, but I'm more just concerned about psychosis in general.

My initial thought of murder/suicide has changed since the release of additional information and interviews. Now, I'm looking at all theories.

The husbands behavior is concerning for me.

 

[althea33161]

Jaime Clutter & her family lived with Jaime's parents for 2weeks prior to the family's cross-country move...she was about 3 months post-partum @ this time. Early onset PPD occurs in the first 6weeks. i believe her mother & father would have noticed if she had PPD as the symptoms are mostly uncontrollable(insomnia, decreased appetite, lethargy). if she suffered from the psychosis, the syptoms wouldv'e been more severe & more obvious at 3 months post-partum. a normal, healthy women can not develope psychosis, quickly, at 6 mo's post-partum. late onset PPD is classified as occurring years after the birth. PPD is not a viable argument at 6 months post-partum, with no mental health history & no symptoms. there is not one documented fact of this ever occurring. please, can u shed some light into why people are focusing on this? Jaime & her kids did not end up naked in that very shallow creek by themselves...if it had not been snowing that day with wind chills in the 20's? had they not been naked? the bible not found? the husband more distraught? is there any other discourse that does not focus on the improbability of PPD in this case? Filicide/suicide due to PPD with these coexisting factors should not be the focus of this triple homicide. original reports said she had not been seen since since sunday...mike clutter originally, immediately! bought into the murder/suicide. he is lucky everyone is focusing on clinical manifestations of PPD & not statistical analysis of parents who kill their children & then THEMSELVES...or body lauguage & eye movement associated with deceit.... just my lonely opinion...please don't hate me because i disagree.

 

[Ravynne]

Hi all, I was checking out Binford park on google maps in relation to where the apartment complex is and came across something I find a bit odd. Looking at Binford on google if you widen the view a little or scroll a bit to the left Floyd Memorial Hospital complex is right there. It doesn't seem like it would be that much farther than the creek.

I point this out because if she was in some sort of distress, let's say PPP or PPD why not go to the hospital which is right there, instead of the park?

Moo

 

[fred&edna]

the local news, papers, etc. are very biased in this case. i wrote a few comments on this murder on WDRB news blog. if u don't agree with filicide/suicide due to PPD, u get ur comments deleted....first off, by all accounts, she was happier than she had ever been. PPD IS NOT a silent killer! secondly, most women who kill their children do not kill themseves. third, women almost always choose the bathtub or ocean to drown themselves, not a creek, ditch, or lake. most filicide/suicides are men! a penticostal woman would not choose to be found naked in a public place! not only is the creek shallow, but it was freezing cold that day...suppose someone drugged themselves & then layed down in 12" of almost frozen water? the minute she hit the water, she would have gasped with an intake of breath & her heart would become tachycardic, temporarily, prolonging her life. where the bodies were dumped is right where the parking lot ends; a straight shot from the enterace to the park, were someone in a car...for her to have walked to the park, in a snowstorm, carrying an infant, she would have had to travel through a wooded area, jumped a fence & crossed the creek...all without any jackets! i would venture that Brandon & Jaime both could have quoted scriptures for hours, yet she took a bible with her?! a random killer would have no reason to kill a 6mo. old infant who could not be a witness...a random killer would not transport the bodies that far, in that weather, to stage something like this...a random killer could just as easily have humiliated her w/ nakedness & mocked her religion w/ the bible inside her home...why take the risk? the most disturbing aspect of all of this to me is the overwhelming response of the public to buy into the filicide/suicide...statistically speaking, the concept is highly improbable. mike cutter? should have stayed off TV. the first i saw of him, he said, of the discovery, "it broke my heart"; "they aren't ever coming back" (declaration or lamentation?);"there were no signs that anything was wrong"....his body language & eye movement indicate he is lying; his comments are void of any emotion (sociopathic?);he immediately bought into murde/suicide (his story has now changed)...but most telling, not once did he mention anything about "catching the killer". my husband was murdered...i was a hospice nurse....his reaction, statements, and lack of a plea for any info regarding the crime, along w/ his "flat affect", are such glaring indicaters of guilt....again...the most disturbing fact: everybody is buying the filicide/suicide fabrication....human nature dictates different, as does the statistical studies regarding people who commit this type of crime. the local bias & apathy to this crime remains a mystery. maybe this Hendericks that is the prosecutor should google the tapes of Scott Peterson for comparrison? i believe mike has done this before & will again.

I must have missed the part about no jackets or coats being found.

While I find his (MC's) behavior, words and affect more than a little "odd"... I'm trying my best not to speculate.

 

[althea33161]

BeginnersLuck, thank u for ur sensitivety. no, i have spent years in therapy as a result of what has been dubbed "religious abuse"....it is a judgemental, unforgiving religion if u r not one of them... very traumatic & scary for children...but they all believe in supernatural healing, speaking in tongues & the rapture. this is why i know she would have saught religious councel & prayer prior. Nichols, the preacher, said she had told him sunday 3-10-13, that she "had never been happier". they memorize the bible....& they believe that God will rapture them out before the end of the world. hence, this murder suicide is imossible. by all accounts, her parents, everyone...she was dedicated to her faith. they go to church daily to pray....yet she never asked for prayer. these facts are diametrically oppossed. this is fact regarding penticostals, not my opinion, the penticostals r the ones that bring poisinous snakes to church & throw them around children... they belive they may get bit, but they KNOW God will heal them...do u see my distress over thePPD suicide/murder thing? i am not passing judgment but trying to rule out how it could not have happened versus how it did & the conclusion, unfortunately is that mike cutter is the only one who could have done this. a random killer, or one who did this for some twisted religious reason would not have staged the death scene like it was, outside in a well traveled park. this crime was personal! the nudity meant to shame! the bible a taunt! they were drugged with something in their home & transported to the park under the cover of darkness & quite possibly dumped under the bridge origionally. the coroner reported the bodies had been in the water for "an undetermined time". there would have been minimal decomposition in frigid conditions, but bodies in water while have discernable post-mortem artifacts. i think my major problem is that the "official reports" are inconsistent & contradict info that should be objective & finite. these people knew their killer & trusted him. to cloud the crime with insignificant, possible reasons for murder/suicide is a red-herring, at this point, with these facts, regarding Jaime's actions prior to her death & her fundamental beliefs.

 

[Ravynne]

BeginnersLuck, thank u for ur sensitivety. no, i have spent years in therapy as a result of what has been dubbed "religious abuse"....it is a judgemental, unforgiving religion if u r not one of them... very traumatic & scary for children...but they all believe in supernatural healing, speaking in tongues & the rapture. this is why i know she would have saught religious councel & prayer prior. Nichols, the preacher, said she had told him sunday 3-10-13, that she "had never been happier". they memorize the bible....& they believe that God will rapture them out before the end of the world. hence, this murder suicide is imossible. by all accounts, her parents, everyone...she was dedicated to her faith. they go to church daily to pray....yet she never asked for prayer. these facts are diametrically oppossed. this is fact regarding penticostals, not my opinion, the penticostals r the ones that bring poisinous snakes to church & throw them around children... they belive they may get bit, but they KNOW God will heal them...do u see my distress over thePPD suicide/murder thing?

I now see she could have lived right next to the hospital and may not have sought help there. Thank you

 

[fred&edna]

BeginnersLuck, thank u for ur sensitivety. no, i have spent years in therapy as a result of what has been dubbed "religious abuse"....it is a judgemental, unforgiving religion if u r not one of them... very traumatic & scary for children...but they all believe in supernatural healing, speaking in tongues & the rapture. this is why i know she would have saught religious councel & prayer prior. Nichols, the preacher, said she had told him sunday 3-10-13, that she "had never been happier". they memorize the bible....& they believe that God will rapture them out before the end of the world. hence, this murder suicide is imossible. by all accounts, her parents, everyone...she was dedicated to her faith. they go to church daily to pray....yet she never asked for prayer. these facts are diametrically oppossed. this is fact regarding penticostals, not my opinion, the penticostals r the ones that bring poisinous snakes to church & throw them around children... they belive they may get bit, but they KNOW God will heal them...do u see my distress over thePPD suicide/murder thing?

Could it be... she expressed fears, worries to her husband and his response was to make her believe (via a big fat guilt trip) she was just spiritually weak... that she needed more prayer but NOT to seek help from the pastor or church council. 'Maybe he told her that seeking help would be embarrassing to him and their family.

 

[MsFacetious]

To clarify: We were not focusing on PPD or PPP as the likely culprit here. (I don't believe it is.)

We were simply trying to correct some of the incorrect things that were said about PPP/PPD.

I personally have a friend with no mental health issues, 3 healthy prior pregnancies and a very wanted 4th child.
She came within minutes of killing her baby girl, very recently.
If I had not been right down the street I'm not sure what would have happened...
I SAW with my own eyes a woman I would trust with MY baby... explaining to me how she was going to kill her own.

Because of that PPD/PPP has now become very personal for me.

It is important to me that people are more aware of PPD/PPP.
I couldn't let incorrect information go uncorrected on such a serious topic. :twocents:

 

[MsFacetious]

Could it be... she expressed fears, worries to her husband and his response was to make her believe (via a big fat guilt trip) she was just spiritually weak... that she needed more prayer but NOT to seek help from the pastor or church council. 'Maybe he told her that seeking help would be embarrassing to him and their family.

I know plenty of devoutly religious people who would literally rather die than seek help from their church.
They are considered very faithful, very strong, people others look up to.

It would be devastating to admit that they were weak like the others.
They have said as much after some event finally brought their struggles to light.

Others, simply committed suicide, avoiding dealing with the shame they felt admitting their struggles would bring. :twocents:

It is important to note that PPD/PPP and religion may not be the only motives in this case anyway.
There are other reasons that a mother might choose to kill herself and her children. (If that's what happened at all.)