GUILTY IN - Shaylyn Ammerman, 14 mos, Spencer, 23 March 2016 #2

[pepelepolecat]

Some people who have had children or siblings murdered or lost in car accidents have been posting on dad's FB page (I hope that's within TOS to say?). I think they've got some interesting comments re: how people react in the immediate aftermath of a loss. Suffice it to say: I think the Ammermans have been misjudged by some of us (and by "us," I mean me).

On another note: Millions of kids across the country are living similar lives to Shaylyn, with parents who are, to quote another poster, "half-assing" it. The vast majority will grow up just fine because, to be honest, most kids throughout history most likely grew up with parents who "half-assed" it. Hover-parenting is a relatively new phenomenon. I'm not sure that parenting style necessarily equates with love, and as long as a child is genuinely loved, they'll be okay, imo.

All moo, imo.

 

[ILOKAL]

I have to respectfully disagree. I feel like that's a put-down (not saying it was intentional on your part) to people who suffer with chronic illnesses, myself included.

I suffer from several things which are not visible and I promise you, I'm a "normal", professional, intelligent, rational, empathetic, caring, loving person and I easily pick up on social cues, conduct myself with dignity, know to wear a shirt in a TV interview, etc.

None of the "hidden illnesses" could possibly explain this family's behavior IMO.

On behalf of all people who suffer from depression, anxiety, fibromyalgia, diabetes, IBS, Chron's, bipolar, and every other hidden illness.... Just no.


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I thought the discussion of possible unseen disabilities arose due to questioning if SSDI might be the source of their income?

 

[ILOKAL]

So he left Shaylyn's home at around 3:00 am and arrived at the Wagoner house at 3:30 am? That timeline doesn't make sense.

Well, then the timeline is wrong, because he DID leave the house, he DID take Shaylyn, he DID do what he is charged with, and he DID arrive at his friend's house.

 

[ILOKAL]

Does anyone know Shaylyn's birthday? My cousin's daughter is going to be 15 months old on April 7, so I think they might be close. Her middle name is Shay and my cousin was considering naming her Shaylyn but it didn't go well with their last name. :/ It definitely makes cases hit closer to home when you have a family member who is the exact same age and almost had the same name.

Her father said she would have turned 15-months on March 31st. Sorry, don't remember where I saw that.

 

[Inthedetails]

Well, then the timeline is wrong, because he DID leave the house, he DID take Shaylyn, he DID do what he is charged with, and he DID arrive at his friend's house.

Yes, the timeline is still murky. I thought the 3:30am time of arrival at his friends' house to take a shower was solid, but now I agree with other WSers that that time must be a mistake.

I just looked at the Probable Cause doc again and here's what it says:

"Parker denied his friends' account that he arrived at their home around 5 or 5:30 am. He says they had just woken up and did not have time to judge his behavior."

The friends, however, say they were getting ready for work. I want to believe the friends, but it would help of MSM would get the info right!

JMO

 

[tlcya]

Tamera Morgan put Shaylyn down around 10 pm. http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2016/03/28/shaylyn-ammerman-what-we-know/82355396/

Tamera checked on Shaylyn around 2:00 am http://www.wthr.com/story/31576523/...er-child-molestation-in-shaylyn-ammerman-case

AA believes that Kyle left around 3 am. http://www.wthr.com/story/31576523/...er-child-molestation-in-shaylyn-ammerman-case

Kyle told LE he believes he left around 12:30 or 1:30 am. http://fox59.com/2016/03/28/man-cha...in-death-of-spencer-toddler-shaylyn-ammerman/

Kyle Parker arrives at friend's house and pulls into garage starts laundry and cleaning his car around 3:40 am. http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...arged-rape-murder-1-year-olds-death/82336526/

This article cites Kyle Parker arriving at the friends' home around 5:00 or 5:30 am. http://www.wthr.com/story/31576523/...er-child-molestation-in-shaylyn-ammerman-case

what timeline? It seems very fluid and uncertain right now.

 

[ILOKAL]

You're right...I was trying to say that I think their disabilities are in mental health/lower IQ areas rather than physical, while still being polite about it. I just get the feeling they're not very smart, as in not capable of it, rather than simply uneducated. And I think that contributed to this incident because it actually didn't occur to them there could be a problem.

They were very trusting and never in a million years could they have foreseen a monster in their midst, IMO.

 

[desert-blue]

Her father said she would have turned 15-months on March 31st. Sorry, don't remember where I saw that.

I read somewhere that she was born on December 31st (New Year's Eve) so that would make sense. Her birth year would have been 2014.

 

[Hoosier952]

The bleach is really bothering me. Where did he get the bleach? Did he have it in his car ? If so, was planned this in advance? Or, did he stop someplace to buy it or go to somebody's house to get it, after the fact?

ITA....I asked that earlier....would show premeditation.

Good thought, but very, very unlikely, IMO. Bleach is not something that you really want rolling around in your car/trunk. The container leaks too easily. How many people regularly use bleach when doing their laundry?

I've wondered this as well. He could have grabbed it from the house at the same time he took Shaylyn. He could have had it in his car if he often did laundry elsewhere, although a young guy doesn't really strike me as the type to use bleach in his laundry, or did he return to the scene at some point? The timeline is a bit confusing so I'm not exactly sure where the showering, car cleaning, and confessing to step-dad fit in.

I've had so many people claim children of a certain age are legally required to have their own bedrooms, but when pressed, no one has been able to provide me with any statutes specifying that? I've gotten information about foster children and adopted children and section 8 regulations, but I'd love a link to a source that regular, typical children in regular, typical households are legally required to have a bedroom.

I haven't ever been able to find any concrete answers either. I don't think it could really be enforced in most situations. I don't think anything would be said as long as children are being cared for (up to whatever standards CPS/law deem acceptable) and no complaints were being made. I don't think the law could force people to buy homes they can't afford or do costly remodels every time they add x amount of children to their family.

 

[ILOKAL]

Collecting Social Security Disability benefits doesn't come easy. One has to provide tons of medical information and must also undergo exams by doctors that have been approved by the government to conduct such exams. The amount one collects a month is based on what they have paid into social security. If you look at the top of your annual statement you will see the amount you would collect if you started collecting "today." That amount never increases except for an annual cost of living percentage (there was no increase for 2016). When one reaches the standard age to start collecting social security, the benefit amount does not change. Recipients' cases are open to review at any time to determine if they are still eligible to collect benefits. There is a wide range of things that qualify one to receive benefits. Most people are of the opinion that one must exhibit noticeable signs of a disability like being in a wheelchair, being on oxygen, or a host of other conditions that are apparent to the naked eye. Close friends and relatives might not even be aware of a person's disability unless they are told about it. If you would see me shopping at the mall, doing gardening, having fun at the beach, or sensibly debating someone over a complex subject, you wouldn't think for a moment that I'm disabled, but I am.

Then again, there's the child's share, whereby if a child is determined by SSA to have become disabled prior to turning 19, they receive one-half of the parent's SSDI.

 

[smiley]

Then again, there's the child's share, whereby if a child is determined by SSA to have become disabled prior to turning 19, they receive one-half of the parent's SSDI.

yes but a person can only draw on their parents SSDI until 18 if in high school, until age 21 if in college. These men are near 30, have never worked, so I believe they receive SSI. SSI is paid by the state, kinda like welfare for people with no minor children living in the home. It is a lesser amount and easier to become eligible for, than SSDI

 

[Inthedetails]

They were very trusting and never in a million years could they have foreseen a monster in their midst, IMO.

I disagree about not being able to foresee a monster in their midst.

Grandma once walked in to find Kyle drunk in her home, holding her little granddaughter in his lap. We get that info from Adam, so the family knew about the incident. If I found a drunk guy holding my baby daughter/granddaughter/niece on his lap, I wouldn't be leaving her alone with him around, ever, period - let alone leaving her in her crib with him in the house drinking after I went to bed.

The only person to blame for the torture and murder of that child is Kyle Parker, of course, but the family was not blind to his ways, imo.

JMOpinion.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I had to step away yesterday because I was so unbelievably angry I knew I was going to fury-post something that would not only get me banned for life, but include details my great-grand kids would hear rumors of. I'm really glad I stepped away, but I see that others have already mentioned things I wanted to anyway, in a completely non-banning way - so thank you for that.

So... the timeline. At this point it seems there isn't really a reliable one. I honestly don't believe a word out of the Ammerman/Morgan household so I'm tossing that aside. Going by KP's statement that he left somewhere between 12:30-1:30 and then the garage lady's statement that he arrived there around 3:30am, that makes the most sense. Getting up at 3:30 to get ready for work is not at all uncommon - all depends on the shift, the commute, etc. so it's quite possible that's not a typo or mistake in MSM reporting.

I have not seen the actual PC statement (is it actually posted somewhere?) but the TOD for sweet baby Shaylyn would be incredibly helpful in piecing together an accurate timeline.

While I was in self-appointed time out last night I thought about who the real victims are in this case. I don't know why, but every time I follow a case I immediately think of the perpetrator's family (after the actual victim of course, my heart stays there first and foremost). But can you imagine being told by LE that your son, husband, brother, father or uncle just confessed to doing this, this or that? Thankfully I have never experienced that but it would have to feel like a black hole of evil sucking your heart out. The horror, shame, grief and surreal nature of such news would leave anyone devastated.

From Shaylyn's brothers, parents, grandparents, cousins, KP's family and extended family, the searchers & LE folks that actually found her, the ME that had to do examine this poor baby... this heinous crime is like a mushroom cloud of pain and horror that touches so many people. While there has been only 1 arrest at this point, there were most certainly people in this baby's life that enabled this crime to have taken place against her. While they also may be victims according to the TOS here, that doesn't negate the circumstances or the events that took place in that home the night this baby was taken away.

Just a few thoughts after coming down from Rage Mountain last night. moo & all that.

 

[ILOKAL]

yes but a person can only draw on their parents SSDI until 18 if in high school, until age 21 if in college. These men are near 30, have never worked, so I believe they receive SSI. SSI is paid by the state, kinda like welfare for people with no minor children living in the home. It is a lesser amount and easier to become eligible for, than SSDI

That's only true for non-disabled minor children of a disabled parent. That's not the case for disabled children.

 

[Inthedetails]

I had to step away yesterday because I was so unbelievably angry I knew I was going to fury-post something that would not only get me banned for life, but include details my great-grand kids would hear rumors of. I'm really glad I stepped away, but I see that others have already mentioned things I wanted to anyway, in a completely non-banning way - so thank you for that.

So... the timeline. At this point it seems there isn't really a reliable one. I honestly don't believe a word out of the Ammerman/Morgan household so I'm tossing that aside. Going by KP's statement that he left somewhere between 12:30-1:30 and then the garage lady's statement that he arrived there around 3:30am, that makes the most sense. Getting up at 3:30 to get ready for work is not at all uncommon - all depends on the shift, the commute, etc. so it's quite possible that's not a typo or mistake in MSM reporting.

I have not seen the actual PC statement (is it actually posted somewhere?) but the TOD for sweet baby Shaylyn would be incredibly helpful in piecing together an accurate timeline.

While I was in self-appointed time out last night I thought about who the real victims are in this case. I don't know why, but every time I follow a case I immediately think of the perpetrator's family (after the actual victim of course, my heart stays there first and foremost). But can you imagine being told by LE that your son, husband, brother, father or uncle just confessed to doing this, this or that? Thankfully I have never experienced that but it would have to feel like a black hole of evil sucking your heart out. The horror, shame, grief and surreal nature of such news would leave anyone devastated.

From Shaylyn's brothers, parents, grandparents, cousins, KP's family and extended family, the searchers & LE folks that actually found her, the ME that had to do examine this poor baby... this heinous crime are like a mushroom cloud of pain and horror that touches so many people. While there has been only 1 arrest at this point, there were most certainly people in this baby's life that enabled this crime to have taken place against her. While they also may be victims according to the TOS here, that doesn't negate the circumstances or the events that took place in that home the night this baby was taken away.

Just a few thoughts after coming down from Rage Mountain last night. moo & all that.

The Probable Cause statement says KP's arrival time at the friends' home was 5-5:30. http://www.wbiw.com/local/archive/2016/03/post-244.php

 

[ninij9]

I don't know if anyone has gone there, but the the reason the crib bashing is so horrifying to me is because it feels like an act of rage against Shaylyn herself. That's what I am feeling . jmo.

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[Hippie Heart]

sorry to hear of your bunny passing. With all this evil we read about on WS, the news, Facebook, etc. it is a positive reminder that there are still plenty of people in the world who have hearts full of love, capable of loving other human beings & animals sincerely. We have a holland lop, Lucy, and a mini lop Meeska (named by my daughter after Mickey Mouse clubhouse ) & they are really two of the sweetest bunnies I've ever had in almost 30 years! Lops are wonderful

sorry to derail-it was all too nice to detour my current train of thought to thinking of sweet floppy eared bunnies hopping around accompanied by little kids laughing & being exactly what every child should have the chance to be-an innocent, curious, silly, loving/loved child!

Thank you so much!! Our little Stella brought us so much joy too. I hope every child gets to experience the wonder and joy of having such a sweet and animated little pet. She died during a spay surgery, she was not quite 2. We are grateful to have had the privilege of loving her but as my 8 yr old put it, "we have a bunny shaped hole in our hearts".


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[kaen]

Then again, there's the child's share, whereby if a child is determined by SSA to have become disabled prior to turning 19, they receive one-half of the parent's SSDI.

I am not sure how many of the adults in the home are on SSDI. I will say that there are service organizations who work with individuals (after 18/21--aged out of school services) to get the maximized benefits---SSDI, local support services, disability support services in college programs, etc. Depending on impairment level as determined by SS, they could be receiving enough funds that if pooled could pay rent and most living expenses.

With a person with spectrum disorders, the social understanding is not just taught and internalized. People with spectrum disorders often need reteaching and reminding. I have worked with highly successful students with what used to be called Asperger's--- they went to college, found partners--- who still needed to be reminded to get out specific patterns and routines to maintain flexible thinking. They were not necessarily the best "people job" people but could be given cues that helped them to be more aware. I have worked with others with a similar profile that were unable to make the jump to college and healthy partner relationships. These students struggle with the day-to-day often living at home (not necessarily the best placement as they solidify their rigidity) and losing vital skills taught in school/vocational/treatment programs. Functioning is not a stagnant determination. Time without treatment is often when backsliding occurs. And I have not even touched medication use or refusal in these cases. Once a person is an adult they determine whether they want to stay on the meds that might have had positive effects on functioning.

With the dad, people cite his lack of emotion, lack of understanding of what most understand to be "normal" social skills, and the swing to anger as things that are off. If he does have a disability, his living situation is probably not helping him to be a functional member of his community or family. Despite what people think about him, if he is disabled (which does not mean he can't parent) services that continually guide and train are vital. JMHO.

 

[Hippie Heart]

I thought the discussion of possible unseen disabilities arose due to questioning if SSDI might be the source of their income?

Apparently it was and I misunderstood. I clarified that in a later post.


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[Bravo]

I still feel sick.