Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[Anti-K]

I think it is a given that the ransom note makes no sense if RDI.

If they couldn’t figure out how to get rid of the body, then why invest so much effort and risk into faking a kidnapping and having the police come over? Invest effort (less!!) and risk (less!!) by faking a scenario where 1) it’s reasonable for the body to be in the house (accident) and 2) side-step the police (911 for ambulance or take body to hospital). Less effort, less risk – if they can cover up, run away and escape from a murder they can cover up, run away and escape from an accident.

Why threaten yourself with beheading, etc. if you call the authorities when your plan is to call the authorities?

If they wanted to point away from themselves than why unnecessarily create self-incriminating evidence?

Is it equally true that it makes no sense for an intruder to create/leave the ransom note? I guess that depends on the intruder’s intent and motivation. We can’t really say that it makes no sense without knowing these things.

Here are a few possibilities:
1. a kidnapper could have intended on murdering and hiding his victim in the house right from the get-go, possibly believing that the Ramseys would not call the police and that he could collect his money before the parents discovered the body (why would they look for it?). Murdering and hiding the body in the house relieves him of the risk of having to handle, transport, hide and return/dispose of his victim and reduces the risk of forensic evidence accruing.

2. a molester who happened to kill (as opposed to a killer who happened to molest) could have created the note as a means of hiding from himself and/or others his perverse desires and true motivation. Wiping, redressing, covering body and elements of a kidnapping (cord, tape, note) all could have been done as a means to misdirect. “We know that offenders are more reluctant to admit sexual motives than other types of motives (e.g., profit, revenge, anger, power). Some offenders may not even realize their true motivation. An offender may eventually request a ridiculously small ransom for a child he had abducted to molest in an apparent attempt to convince others, but primarily himself, that he is not a sex offender” http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC70.pdf

3. a killer wishing to direct suspicion towards the occupants of the house (thus, away from himself)

4. a killer wishing to create an enduring mystery

5. a killer hoping to create for the parents a sense of false hope mingled with hours of angst and pain reaching its peak when the body is discovered

6. Virtually any reason you can think of for a Ramsey to write the note with the body in the house works just as well for an intruder; the possibilities are endless and it is a blatant error of reason to say otherwise. The claim that there was “no purpose whatsoever” for an intruder to leave a phony (or real) ransom note is false.

The ransom note makes sense in each of these IDI scenarios.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

A few possible and “innocent” explanations for the pineapple:
1) jonbenet eats the pineapple before leaving for the White’s, a quick bite on her way out the door – at least one Boulder expert said that this was possible

2) jonbenet takes a small piece with her when they leave for the White’s, like candy, tucked into a box, a bag, a baggie, a container, a pocket, whatever was handy. She eats it at the Whites or in the car before falling asleep on the way home

3) jonbenet having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and “finds” that stashed or left over piece somewhere in her room. yum, yum.

4) jonbenet, having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and maybe still thinking about Christmas, wanders downstairs and sees the pineapple in the bowl, left there from earlier in the day, and she has a piece, but still tired wanders off back to bed
.

I’ll take a break and let you digest all this.
...

AK

 

[Mama2JML]

I think it is a given that the ransom note makes no sense if RDI.

If they couldn’t figure out how to get rid of the body, then why invest so much effort and risk into faking a kidnapping and having the police come over? Invest effort (less!!) and risk (less!!) by faking a scenario where 1) it’s reasonable for the body to be in the house (accident) and 2) side-step the police (911 for ambulance or take body to hospital). Less effort, less risk – if they can cover up, run away and escape from a murder they can cover up, run away and escape from an accident.

Why threaten yourself with beheading, etc. if you call the authorities when your plan is to call the authorities?

If they wanted to point away from themselves than why unnecessarily create self-incriminating evidence?

Is it equally true that it makes no sense for an intruder to create/leave the ransom note? I guess that depends on the intruder’s intent and motivation. We can’t really say that it makes no sense without knowing these things.

Here are a few possibilities:
1.a kidnapper could have intended on murdering and hiding his victim in the house right from the get-go, possibly believing that the Ramseys would not call the police and that he could collect his money before the parents discovered the body (why would they look for it?). Murdering and hiding the body in the house relieves him of the risk of having to handle, transport, hide and return/dispose of his victim and reduces the risk of forensic evidence accruing.

2.a molester who happened to kill (as opposed to a killer who happened to molest) could have created the note as a means of hiding from himself and/or others his perverse desires and true motivation. Wiping, redressing, covering body and elements of a kidnapping (cord, tape, note) all could have been done as a means to misdirect. “We know that offenders are more reluctant to admit sexual motives than other types of motives (e.g., profit, revenge, anger, power). Some offenders may not even realize their true motivation. An offender may eventually request a ridiculously small ransom for a child he had abducted to molest in an apparent attempt to convince others, but primarily himself, that he is not a sex offender” http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC70.pdf

3.a killer wishing to direct suspicion towards the occupants of the house (thus, away from himself)

4.a killer wishing to create an enduring mystery

5.a killer hoping to create for the parents a sense of false hope mingled with hours of angst and pain reaching its peak when the body is discovered

6.Virtually any reason you can think of for a Ramsey to write the note with the body in the house works just as well for an intruder; the possibilities are endless and it is a blatant error of reason to say otherwise. The claim that there was “no purpose whatsoever” for an intruder to leave a phony (or real) ransom note is false.

The ransom note makes sense in each of these IDI scenarios.
...

AK

:goodpost:

That which is B&UBM sums it up perfectly. Great analysis, AK.

 

[Muy Curioso]

A few possible and “innocent” explanations for the pineapple:
1) jonbenet eats the pineapple before leaving for the White’s, a quick bite on her way out the door – at least one Boulder expert said that this was possible

2) jonbenet takes a small piece with her when they leave for the White’s, like candy, tucked into a box, a bag, a baggie, a container, a pocket, whatever was handy. She eats it at the Whites or in the car before falling asleep on the way home

3) jonbenet having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and “finds” that stashed or left over piece somewhere in her room. yum, yum.

4) jonbenet, having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and maybe still thinking about Christmas, wanders downstairs and sees the pineapple in the bowl, left there from earlier in the day, and she has a piece, but still tired wanders off back to bed
.

I’ll take a break and let you digest all this.
...

AK

5) Jonbenet not eating pineapple in any way.

Brilliant post on the RN. The truth is that if Patsy and John had killed Jonbenet they could not expect anything other than the immediate discovery of the body as police arrived. A few minutes at most.
So what's the point of writing a ransom note when it will be immediately evident that there is no kidnapping?

 

[tovarisch]

A few possible and “innocent” explanations for the pineapple:
1) jonbenet eats the pineapple before leaving for the White’s, a quick bite on her way out the door – at least one Boulder expert said that this was possible

2) jonbenet takes a small piece with her when they leave for the White’s, like candy, tucked into a box, a bag, a baggie, a container, a pocket, whatever was handy. She eats it at the Whites or in the car before falling asleep on the way home

3) jonbenet having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and “finds” that stashed or left over piece somewhere in her room. yum, yum.

4) jonbenet, having fallen asleep earlier than usual and having ate little at the White’s, wakes up at home, in bed and hungry and maybe still thinking about Christmas, wanders downstairs and sees the pineapple in the bowl, left there from earlier in the day, and she has a piece, but still tired wanders off back to bed
.

I’ll take a break and let you digest all this.
...

AK

My choice is #1. After learning the scientific basis about digestion system, there is no mystery for me. The science simply states that at where JB`s remnants of food was found, small intestine, food remains up to 5-6 hours there. Plus up to 40 min in stomach prior to moving to small intestine. ( In large intestine food remains up to 12 hours. All together digesting cycle take 24 hours).

 

[tovarisch]

I think it is a given that the ransom note makes no sense if RDI.

If they couldn’t figure out how to get rid of the body, then why invest so much effort and risk into faking a kidnapping and having the police come over? Invest effort (less!!) and risk (less!!) by faking a scenario where 1) it’s reasonable for the body to be in the house (accident) and 2) side-step the police (911 for ambulance or take body to hospital). Less effort, less risk – if they can cover up, run away and escape from a murder they can cover up, run away and escape from an accident.

Why threaten yourself with beheading, etc. if you call the authorities when your plan is to call the authorities?

If they wanted to point away from themselves than why unnecessarily create self-incriminating evidence?

Is it equally true that it makes no sense for an intruder to create/leave the ransom note? I guess that depends on the intruder’s intent and motivation. We can’t really say that it makes no sense without knowing these things.

Here are a few possibilities:
1. a kidnapper could have intended on murdering and hiding his victim in the house right from the get-go, possibly believing that the Ramseys would not call the police and that he could collect his money before the parents discovered the body (why would they look for it?). Murdering and hiding the body in the house relieves him of the risk of having to handle, transport, hide and return/dispose of his victim and reduces the risk of forensic evidence accruing.

2. a molester who happened to kill (as opposed to a killer who happened to molest) could have created the note as a means of hiding from himself and/or others his perverse desires and true motivation. Wiping, redressing, covering body and elements of a kidnapping (cord, tape, note) all could have been done as a means to misdirect. “We know that offenders are more reluctant to admit sexual motives than other types of motives (e.g., profit, revenge, anger, power). Some offenders may not even realize their true motivation. An offender may eventually request a ridiculously small ransom for a child he had abducted to molest in an apparent attempt to convince others, but primarily himself, that he is not a sex offender” http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC70.pdf

3. a killer wishing to direct suspicion towards the occupants of the house (thus, away from himself)

4. a killer wishing to create an enduring mystery

5. a killer hoping to create for the parents a sense of false hope mingled with hours of angst and pain reaching its peak when the body is discovered

6. Virtually any reason you can think of for a Ramsey to write the note with the body in the house works just as well for an intruder; the possibilities are endless and it is a blatant error of reason to say otherwise. The claim that there was “no purpose whatsoever” for an intruder to leave a phony (or real) ransom note is false.

The ransom note makes sense in each of these IDI scenarios.
...

AK

ON this analysis my choice is #5. I want to add "especially when killer is safely far away from the crime for his alibi".

 

[icedtea4me]

I think it is a given that the ransom note makes no sense if RDI. *snip*

Well, yeah, if the note is read in a left-brain, concrete manner.

 

[Anti-K]

Well, yeah, if the note is read in a left-brain, concrete manner.

The “analysis” I provided does not involve reading the note. It regards the note’s existence.
...

AK

 

[mochii]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies, guys. I do have some further questiontion/rebuttals, but I know this isn't the appropiate thread for them. I am going to work my way through all 85 pages of this (slowly) over the next week or so -- I may return with even more questions later!

Somewhat related questions: I've been seeing "bbm" around the forums lately, what does that mean? Can't seem to figure it out, lol.

 

[Tawny]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies, guys. I do have some further questiontion/rebuttals, but I know this isn't the appropiate thread for them. I am going to work my way through all 85 pages of this (slowly) over the next week or so -- I may return with even more questions later!

Somewhat related questions: I've been seeing "bbm" around the forums lately, what does that mean? Can't seem to figure it out, lol.

It means "bolded by me"

 

[Mama2JML]

I don't recall the thread in which a recent question was asked regarding the door thru which John Fernie observed the RN, so I've decided to post this here:

According to his sworn testimony, John Fernie parked his car at the back of the house and approached the patio door. The door was locked, but he was able to view the note through the door and read a line or two which caused him concern. He walked around the house, to be let in the front door.

 

[Mama2JML]

The phone, spiral staircase & the patio door:

 

[icedtea4me]

^^ The top of the roof on the top right looks like a cross-eyed face.

 

[elannia]

If im not mistaken, in one of the R's interviews, ( I believe it was PR), she was looking through photographs with LE and in one she said "that is John Fernies van" and in the CS photo it is at the front of the house. So why would he park his van out front, and walk around back, see the note, then walk back around to the front. Or maybe he parked in the back couldnt get in then drove around front. Anyways, makes no sense to me

 

[inspector rex]

If im not mistaken, in one of the R's interviews, ( I believe it was PR), she was looking through photographs with LE and in one she said "that is John Fernies van" and in the CS photo it is at the front of the house. So why would he park his van out front, and walk around back, see the note, then walk back around to the front. Or maybe he parked in the back couldnt get in then drove around front. Anyways, makes no sense to me

I don't think there's a time stamp on the photo. If I remember correctly (without looking it up) Fleet White and John Fernie were dispatched to pick up the ransom. I recall that LE were busy photocopying money to give to John for the kidnappers!! Not sure if they were to pick up the fake money or if LE was going to deliver it. So, I expect the van, (if it was actually the Fernie's) might have been moved at least once that morning, if not several times. John wasn't going to leave the house in case the call came.

 

[Mama2JML]

If im not mistaken, in one of the R's interviews, ( I believe it was PR), she was looking through photographs with LE and in one she said "that is John Fernies van" and in the CS photo it is at the front of the house. So why would he park his van out front, and walk around back, see the note, then walk back around to the front. Or maybe he parked in the back couldnt get in then drove around front. Anyways, makes no sense to me

According to Schiller, in PMPT, (nook p. 44 of 614):

"Fleet White told the police that when the Lafayette branch of John Fernie’s bank opened, Fernie went there to see about collecting the ransom money from his own account."​

​

 

[BoldBear]

I keep going over this (like everyone else) and I've completely dismissed the train room window as an entrance or exit. I've often thought that the butler's pantry door was a good option for entry/exit, but now I'm wondering if the front door isn't the best option.

Does anyone know if there was a pathway outside the butler's pantry that was on brick or concrete? The reason why this is important is that the grass still had snow and would have revealed any foot prints. The west side of the house had the barking dogs across the alley and the neighbor didn't recall any barking that night. It was pointed-out a few posts above that there were basically no street lights--this neighborhood gets dark at night. They had a security light that was out in the sun room and the master bed room doesn't have any windows to face the street.

The killer could have just walked out the front door.

 

[Mama2JML]

I keep going over this (like everyone else) and I've completely dismissed the train room window as an entrance or exit. I've often thought that the butler's pantry door was a good option for entry/exit, but now I'm wondering if the front door isn't the best option.

Does anyone know if there was a pathway outside the butler's pantry that was on brick or concrete? The reason why this is important is that the grass still had snow and would have revealed any foot prints. The west side of the house had the barking dogs across the alley and the neighbor didn't recall any barking that night. It was pointed-out a few posts above that there were basically no street lights--this neighborhood gets dark at night. They had a security light that was out in the sun room and the master bed room doesn't have any windows to face the street.

The killer could have just walked out the front door.

BBM

 

[OliviaG1996]

BBM

If I remember correctly, that's the door that was slightly opened.

 

[BoldBear]

Thanks. I don't know how I could have missed that photo, but I did. For me, the options for exit are either the butler's pantry door or the front door. Either would have worked. The kitchen door would have been a poor choice IMO because there are too many windows. Stealth would be a priority.