Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[tovarisch]

Love ALL your posts tovarisch. I just want to say re security - Boulder was considered a very safe environment back in the nineties. It's population was only around 90,000 and it had a higher than average proportion of well-educated and comfortably off people than the average American city and a lower than average crime rate. I don't think the Ramseys were negligent.

Thank you.
I`m ashamed of my grammars errors, but they stick into my eyes immediately after I posted, never before, that`s why I cannot read my posts afterwords.
Perhaps, my word negligence was stern. But I still cannot give Ramseys Bravo, you lived like Boulder`s millionaires should live- with broken windows, 40 lost keys, some students sleeping in your daughter`s bed, half of Boulder city going through your open for show house.
I dare to say that Ramseys “form and matter” was in disagreement, they were not accustomed to the new life of millionaires.

There were other millionaires in Boulder, OK, like Whites, old money and “form in matter” in full harmony.

Could you imagine one lost and not replaced key of Whites? One sleeping unknown student? Masses going through the house? I do not think so. We even don`t know what menu was for Dec 25-Th. That`s what I understand sense of security of a millionaires.

 

[gramcracker]

I have never misunderstood your posts because of your grammar. you are good at writing your thoughts; don't let anyone tell you differently. I salute your use of a language that is not your native tongue. (I could never do that - four years of Spanish down the drain, not LOL)

 

[lawstudent]

But you don't have to be as rich as the Kennedys to influence LE. Look at Steubenville, for instance, weren't the boys not arrested for raping their classmate b/c they were football players? You will find many cases where people get away with a crime b/c of who they know, not b/c they are multimillionaires. Anyway, the R's did have connections w/ top lawyers and the authorities.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

I agree you definitely don't need money to have the influence, but I'm just saying having money does not by any means mean the police particularly care. Having connections, particularly being friends or family of law enforcement, is probably much more likely to create that sort of thing. Having a lot of social sway like popular football players, or being active in local politics/business, would probably put a lot more pressure on police than having a nice house and good lawyers. And I think the Steubenville case is a bit different because the police bias that likely occurred in that case probably has more to do with certain social views regarding sexual assault cases, especially where minors are involved. I think social pressures and inappropriate excuses for certain types of behaviors by some people have way more influence than money.

 

[gramcracker]

the various comparisons of the perqs of wealth here and there aside, and the various comparisons as to what constitutes true wealth aside, in THIS case the perception that the Rs were wealthy and powerful mattered greatly

in this case it influenced the initial mindsets of BPD and the DA's office. that mindset was fleeting for the rank and file in BPD because a LEO's basic nature is adversarial; that mindset was of long duration for the DA and his minions, because the basic nature --> in Boulder <-- was conciliatory. for the most part the upper echelon in BPD had a similar conciliatory nature in this case altho they frequently wavered between mindsets, depending on how the wind was blowing

the preference of the Boulder DA and his deputies was that investigations would not result in actual trials; the DA's preference was plea bargains, which is well documented. as it turned out, JR did indeed have friends in high political places, which is well documented, and *sweeping generalization alert* a District Attorney (who owes his job to those who vote) is all about politics, much more so than a PD (altho there are exceptions)

a DA cannot control who PDs hire and promote, but a DA can control the progress and the success and the outcome of PD investigations

 

[Anti-K]

Now see that is exactly the kind of thing where you are going to lose anyone truly on the fence or trying to take an ubiased look at the case. That is patently absurd.

As hard as it is to believe someone stayed in that house long enough to write the RN, It is at least, plausable. This, IMO, is not.

Someone risked breaking in and stealing those items. Because other than a break in you are back to someon who had access to the house and all of those people have been excluded. So, it was either someone without access, or someone who lived in that house.

They did not break in to steal a legal pad. Seriously.

It does sound a bit bizarre, doesn’t it: stealing the notepad ahead of time and bringing it back on the night of the crime? But, is it as far-fetched as it seems? I mean, why is the idea absurd?

Most of IDI consider this crime to be premeditated. If the killer wanted LE to think that the note was written in the house than what better way than to use materials from the house? If he was not familiar with the house, than why wouldn’t he break-in in advance? And, if he planned to use materials from the house, than why not take them in advance? Obviously, this crime was committed by someone who was at least comfortable with taking risks; so, why not? I’m not saying that this is what happened, but why is the idea absurd?
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Especially since if Patsy noticed it missing that would tip them off that someone broke into their house.

Paper and pens are not expensive. The intruder could easily buy them from a 99 cents store and dispose of them later. Much like he did withe rope and the duct tape.

Who would notice a notepad missing? Maybe, lots of people; but, who of them would jump to the conclusion that someone mist have broken in and stolen it? I mean, who would do such a thing – it’s absurd; right?
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Where did this killer hide all this time he was in the house?

His hiding place has to be in a location where he can know when the Ramsey's have arrived so he can prepare to keep silent and make sure there is no incriminating evidence left (like not putting the pad and pen back in the correct place!!!)

This guy ate nothing during this time? Didn't help himself to some of the Ramsey's fancy foods and drinks? Maybe steal some jewelry? Take some souvenirs? Leave potato chip wrappers or a soda can in his hiding place? Track mud all over the carpet? Nothing??? Piss in the guest bathroom?

Nothing? I guess this guy really liked writing notes and had a severe notepad and sharpie fetish.

All this depends on what he intended to do. I’m not fond of the idea that this guy spent hours in the house waiting for the Ramseys to return, but maybe he did.

If he didn’t want the Ramseys to know that he was in the house than he would have had to take very special care to not do anything while they were gone that might raise their suspicions when they returned. This would mean making sure he left no “mud tracks all over the carpet.” This would mean not helping himself to snacks or jewelry, etc. This would mean putting the notepad and the pen so that they did not appear out of place, etc. This would mean leaving no sigh of a break-in, etc.
...

AK

 

[aussiesheila2]

Thank you.
I`m ashamed of my grammars errors, but they stick into my eyes immediately after I posted, never before, that`s why I cannot read my posts afterwords.
Perhaps, my word negligence was stern. But I still cannot give Ramseys Bravo, you lived like Boulder`s millionaires should live- with broken windows, 40 lost keys, some students sleeping in your daughter`s bed, half of Boulder city going through your open for show house.
I dare to say that Ramseys “form and matter” was in disagreement, they were not accustomed to the new life of millionaires.

There were other millionaires in Boulder, OK, like Whites, old money and “form in matter” in full harmony.

Could you imagine one lost and not replaced key of Whites? One sleeping unknown student? Masses going through the house? I do not think so. We even don`t know what menu was for Dec 25-Th. That`s what I understand sense of security of a millionaires.

OK tovarisch, I will backtrack a bit and although I said I did not think they were negligent, I do think (with the wisdom of hindsight) that Patsy was a little careless, a little too trusting. While I think that security guards, security systems would have been unwarranted in Boulder in the nineties and having children’s friends stay overnight, giving out phone numbers and having people walk through a home display would not have been considered a problem, I think that most people would not have given out keys to so many people like Patsy did and most people wouldn’t have left that basement window un-mended like Patsy did.

As far as the door found open on the 26th, I think that was the intruder, I don’t think the Ramseys were in the habit of leaving doors unlocked.

It also seems neither of them worried much about the basement window being open occasionally and must have had a false sense of security because of the grate over it that required some effort to lift. Maybe (again with the wisdom of hindsight) they were both a bit careless in that regard IMO.

Your English writing is fine tovarisch, I don’t think anyone has trouble understanding you at all. And as far as being ashamed, it is not you, but people like me, who can only speak and write in one language who should be ashamed. I just marvel at anyone who can discuss anything even at the most basic level in their non-native language let alone engage in a complex argument the way you do

 

[tovarisch]

Thank you, everybody. I appreciate your support of my English. I want to assure those, who leaned foreign languages. Your knowledge is not wasted and forgotten, it`s there, on the “dusty shelf” of your brain, and when you will need it, it`s there for you. I never knew I would need English, I learned enough just to pass exams, and cared less after. I was more into mathematics. But how I always loved the sound of English! I loved the music of your languages so much, it`s beautiful, trust me.

Back to the topic. Last night I found you-tube video where JonBenet gave interview after the pageants, and she said she wanted to be a pediatrician. I almost cried.

Not American beauty queen, not millionairess, but doctor for children, to help them to be well.

And I thought AGAIN that Ramseys adults owed their children security, when they reached status of millionaires. They just OWED security to their children. Boulder city or not. Period. And they did not fulfill it.

 

[tovarisch]

As far as the door found open on the 26th, I think that was the intruder, I don’t think the Ramseys were in the habit of leaving doors unlocked.


Agreeing with you. My believe that perps (s) left through the butler`s door after they finished the ransom.
Flashlight was theirs. They were done with the FL, turned it off when were ready to exit through the butler`s door, and forgot it on the counter.
I wish I knew the proximity between the spot of the counter where FL was forgotten and the butler`s door. I searched through internet, could not find the blue print ” kitchen counter- butler`s door”.

FL belonged to perps, I believe it was established to be an old FL, batteries changed in advance, of cause, you don`t want your FL fail on you when you are going to the crime, they did not wipe FL, but they wore gloves, they were organized killers, they prepared the crime approx.1 year ahead, according to FBI`s experts opinion.

 

[lawstudent]

the preference of the Boulder DA and his deputies was that investigations would not result in actual trials; the DA's preference was plea bargains, which is well documented. as it turned out, JR did indeed have friends in high political places, which is well documented, and *sweeping generalization alert* a District Attorney (who owes his job to those who vote) is all about politics, much more so than a PD (altho there are exceptions)

a DA cannot control who PDs hire and promote, but a DA can control the progress and the success and the outcome of PD investigations

DAs always prefer plea bargains - the number of cases that go to trial is very low. I agree it is very political. But in my experience, that means DAs like to look tough and tend to be overzealous, though of course not always. But even in a case where they don't want to step on toes, it just looks bad for the DA to have not found a child murderer. It's one thing to quietly not prosecute an at-home accidental death of a child because the family is wealthy (if there had been a possibly criminal element like being run over in the driveway or left unsupervised near a pool), or a domestic dispute between a powerful couple, or a sexual assault accusation against a powerful person, where it can all be swept under the rug as a personal issue or there was no way to prove what exactly happened. But since this was framed as a violent stranger child murder, there wasn't much wiggle room for the DA to leave it be and have it forgotten. It doesn't go with the normal crimes DAs tend to want kept quiet.

 

[THE BUNK]

DAs always prefer plea bargains - the number of cases that go to trial is very low. I agree it is very political. But in my experience, that means DAs like to look tough and tend to be overzealous, though of course not always. But even in a case where they don't want to step on toes, it just looks bad for the DA to have not found a child murderer. It's one thing to quietly not prosecute an at-home accidental death of a child because the family is wealthy (if there had been a possibly criminal element like being run over in the driveway or left unsupervised near a pool), or a domestic dispute between a powerful couple, or a sexual assault accusation against a powerful person, where it can all be swept under the rug as a personal issue or there was no way to prove what exactly happened. But since this was framed as a violent stranger child murder, there wasn't much wiggle room for the DA to leave it be and have it forgotten. It doesn't go with the normal crimes DAs tend to want kept quiet.

[/QUOTE]
It becomes an embarrassment if the crime is serial and another child is murdered afterwards. That is the the thing that cannot be lived down.

If you believe the Ramseys are the most likely suspects but you don't want to risk losing the case, there really is nothing to lose. Most likely the Ramsey's won't kill again and the case will just remain an unsolved case.

 

[chlban]

It does sound a bit bizarre, doesn&#8217;t it: stealing the notepad ahead of time and bringing it back on the night of the crime? But, is it as far-fetched as it seems? I mean, why is the idea absurd?

Most of IDI consider this crime to be premeditated. If the killer wanted LE to think that the note was written in the house than what better way than to use materials from the house? If he was not familiar with the house, than why wouldn&#8217;t he break-in in advance? And, if he planned to use materials from the house, than why not take them in advance? Obviously, this crime was committed by someone who was at least comfortable with taking risks; so, why not? I&#8217;m not saying that this is what happened, but why is the idea absurd?
...

AK

Yes, I would still maintain it is absurd. So now he/she/it (I will just go with he from here on, to keep it simple) breaks into the house, without leaving a trace of having done so, not once but twice? And if the plan is to frame the R's why not leave the cord and tape in the house as well? Wouldn't that be a lot better "proof" than a legal pad?

Sorry, I just cannot. Not even a little. Breaking in while they were gone and waiting? If they knew the R's plans, that is, IMO, plausable, if not likely. But again, why not leave the cord and tape when he is finished? If he left the notepad and Sharpie, why was he so tidy about the other items?

See, this is one of the really the big sticking points for me with IDI. The RN. Even if I can rationalize the behavior of the R's after the crime, I really don't see how we get past the RN. Even if I accept, in theory, that Patsy did not write it. There is still the fact that it was written on their notepad, with their sharpie, it "sounds" like Patsy. It is a lot.

What it really looks like is that whether it was only one of them or both of them, and I have always leaned toward John not being involved in the actual crime or early cover up, but either way it looks like people who are not criminals or forensic experts. This was 1996, before CSI, and similar shows. But even then, anyone would know that you need to hide, or dispose of, the tape and cord. Those were used in the crime. But plain legal pad paper and plain old sharpie? I think is is more than feasable that in 1996 the average person would not even realize those could be traced.

I wouldn't have known it back then.

I just don't know. I think I would have to see a plausable explanation for the RN to really ever tip over into IDI.

If it was the Ramsey's, one or both, that was their huge, glaring error. The RN. Perhaps that is why I have always had trouble believing John was involved at that point. I just cannot imagine two relatively intelligent people agreeing that the RN was a good idea. But I can TOTALLY see Patsy thinking it was.

I also cannot help but notice that in several other cases since then, where the child has mysteriously "disappeared" never to be found, and the parents never to be charged, there was never a Ransom Note.

 

[THE BUNK]

If someone wanted to frame the Ramsey's. They would have wrote a confession letter and signed it as Patsy. They then would have mailed it to newspapers or police the day after the crime. if Patsy claimed the letter was not from her, the police would assume that John had threatened her to keep quiet.

Also, the "frame theory" requires the intruder to possess excellent forging skills. Or know someone that has these skills.

 

[Mama2JML]

If someone wanted to frame the Ramsey's. They would have wrote a confession letter and signed it as Patsy. They then would have mailed it to newspapers or police the day after the crime. if Patsy claimed the letter was not from her, the police would assume that John had threatened her to keep quiet.

Also, the "frame theory" requires the intruder to possess excellent forging skills. Or know someone that has these skills.

No, no, no. This doesn't make sense...

 

[THE BUNK]

Quote Originally Posted by THE BUNK View Post
If someone wanted to frame the Ramsey's. They would have wrote a confession letter and signed it as Patsy. They then would have mailed it to newspapers or police the day after the crime. if Patsy claimed the letter was not from her, the police would assume that John had threatened her to keep quiet.

Also, the "frame theory" requires the intruder to possess excellent forging skills. Or know someone that has these skills.
No, no, no. This doesn't make sense...

Why wouldn't it make sense? If your trying to frame someone, just write a note with their own signature at the bottom? Why be so cryptic with a vague ransom note?

 

[THE BUNK]

Someone on this thread had mentioned the possiblity of intruder having OCD. One problem with that theory is that OCD people tend to repeat numbers, words or names when writing. I would think we would get something like that in the letter. They also tend to trace over words and sentences that they are fixated over. To my knowledge I don't think such a thing exists in the letter

 

[Mama2JML]

Why wouldn't it make sense? If your trying to frame someone, just write a note with their own signature at the bottom? Why be so cryptic with a vague ransom note?

Framing someone else and trying to leave as little self-incriminating evidence as possible are two different goals.

 

[JWhite]

Someone on this thread had mentioned the possiblity of intruder having OCD. One problem with that theory is that OCD people tend to repeat numbers, words or names when writing. I would think we would get something like that in the letter. They also tend to trace over words and sentences that they are fixated over. To my knowledge I don't think such a thing exists in the letter

I found some repetition in the letters. I googled the letter, I did not reference the video letter. There was the series of "if you XYZ, she will die." several times, then on the 3rd page, "John" was suddenly used - three times. I do agree with the video that it was likely written by a female (I think they said 75% likelihood after analysis?)

I also noted the grammar when abbreviating FBI. "F.B.I., etc.," which personally I believe means the person(s) are college-educated.

Of interest, someone above mentioned something like: "if the intruders wanted it to look like it was Patsy, they *would* take the time to write the letter on their notepad while in the home." Curious, has anyone copied out the 3 page ransom note to see how long it would take? Perhaps it was written before, but copied onto the Ramsey's notepaper in the house? I don't know, just throwing out ideas.

 

[JWhite]

I'm sure this has been posted before, but for easy reference:

The Ransom Note: http://www.documentingreality.com/f...n-t-ramsey-ransom-note-ramsey.ransom.note.jpg